Is gender identity real?

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Alec Benson Leary dijo:
I don't buy this bullshit some of you push about sexual identity issues all being mental illness, they said the same shit about homosexuality less than half a century ago.
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Arguing whether or not transexuality (or homosexuality) are mental illnesses is about as productive as arguing whether a tomato is a fruit or vegetable. The definition of mental illness is arbitrary anyway, which is why the DSM changes it every edition.
 
shibbolethal dijo:
there were always trannies. it's just that nowadays it's somewhat more socially acceptable, and there are more resources. it's just like how in the 1800s you never hear about any gay people. they were around, but a ton of them were in the closet back then, or didn't even realize that they were gay. now that there's more awareness, people start to understand their own condition! gender dysphoria is a medical condition that can be treated in the same way that any other medical condition can be treated.
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Take away the internet and there would be fewer trannies, and that reason is because a lot of trenders would have no real internal concept of transgenerism or dysphoria unless they were made aware of it through pop-culture.
To me, being a woman (my sex, I don't believe in gender) is a mixture of internal components and external stimuli, like living in a female body; people treat me in a certain way, sometimes good sometimes bad, but I doubt it really varies that much from person to person. Everyone's sense of sex is as unique as the person in question. I will never understand how some delusional half-wits can believe that being a woman is about hair flips, the color pink, and ugly child-like dresses;these people obviously live their lives on the surface, so they should not be given any credence in any shape or form.
 
I personally think (in my vast ignorance of biology) that gender is to do with levels of oestrogen as compared to testosterone. Someone with more T levels as compared to O will feel more masculine. Usually, males are testosterone-dominant. And when a girl has higher than normal, she tends to exhibit more traditionally masculine interests and leanings. Things like competitiveness, more risky behaviours, more dominant personality traits, etc etc.
meanwhile, boys with higher oestrogen levels than normal tend to have more biologically feminine leanings. Things like more interest in caring for and rearing children, calmness, kindness.

Obviously, boys don't only have testosterone and girls don't only have oestrogen, you need a balance of both to be hormonally balanced. And my observation is that people with gender issues have say close to feminine levels of oestrogen for males and close to masculine levels of testosterone for females.

The problem that seems to be arising is that (particularly younger) people are seeing masculinity and femininity as concrete black and white concepts. So if you aren't completely masculine or feminine, then you have to have dysphoria. And since you obviously won't feel either completely one or the other, they think they're halfway between genders. Which is why they keep coming up with these 'sometimes I'm a boy sometimes I'm a girl' nonsensical genders. Because they don't realise it's completely normal to have some girly or some manly interests. And that it doesn't make you dysphoric or trans to have them.

(Also: tomboys are love, tomboys are life)
 
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The great thing about these trans people is that they rarely bring up the fact that they're trans.
 
I don't recall ever hearing about 'gender identity' anywhere as little as 5 years ago. Now, more and more people are claiming they are bi-gender, gender-fluid etc. and that's down to it suddenly thriving in popularity. I've heard the term 'transtrenders' being thrown out more often and that sums the whole thing up. Its just a bandwagon for lazy teens and young adults to jump on to make themselves feel more special and persecuted.
 
I personally think that there are innate tastes common to gender and that, for example it's more likely boys to be drawn to GI Joe and girls drawn to sentimental things like Care Bears. Just personal thought tho.
 
Considering things I've heard from acquaintances of mine who are diagnosed with dysphoria, fluidity seems like it might have some legitimacy, but that might also just be the dysphoria being weaker or stronger due to hormone changes or something. I'm not a doctor I don't fucking know, but if that is the case there might be more to it. Other than that it's male or female. Gender isn't a fucking Baskin Robbins where there are like 31 and you can try before you buy.

Seriously, if you're a guy who likes girly stuff, congrats you're a girly guy. If you're a chick that likes dude stuff, congrats you are a tomboy. You can like different things and not be fucking trans, or whatever fake gender you wanna give yourself.
 
Mariposa Electrique dijo:
I don't believe in gender
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Well that's just silly. The concept is certainly real.

Like, claiming gender doesn't exist is essentially saying that when people encounter someone who appears to be a man (regardless of genitalia), they have zero preconceived notions about what to expect from that person. It's saying that there are no overarching trends. And that's clearly not the case.
 
Mars Attacks! dijo:
2. The presence of gender dysphoria ("I have a male brain in a female body." "I'm trans because having a penis feels wrong.")
Here's where things get a little more complicated. There have been studies done on brain sex in trans people that have found that their brains have more in common with the sex they identify as. However, other neurological research shows that brains have plasticity, meaning their shape is not innate and changes depending on other physical or environmental factors. I've been on hormones and can anecdotally tell you that the way I think and feel changed a lot. Even if a person isn't on hormones, if they are persistently living their life as if they were the opposite sex, their brain could potentially change shape and function to reflect that.
Dysphoria is the feeling that your body or parts of it are "wrong," which in trans people can manifest as discomfort with or hatred of sexed traits such as broad shoulders or an hourglass shape. But how do you differentiate between a trans man who wants his breasts reduced/removed and a cis woman who wants the same thing? How about a man who wants plastic surgery to make his face look more feminine versus a trans woman who wants the same thing? What about someone who has dysphoria but chooses to find ways other than transition to cope with it? The only difference between these people, and the only definition of gender identity left, is whether or not they "identify" as trans.
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Explain a bit more here, OP. The other two definitions are easy, obvious garbage to counter but this right here is the kicker to the "no gender identity argument."

If there have been scientific studies that show trans people have more in common with the sex they identify as, and even taking into account brain plasticity, why would that mean a gender identity wouldn't exist? And isn't body dysphoria in people (especially with regards to a sexual body part or characteristic) who don't go full-on trans just proving the people who say gender identity is a spectrum right?

Defend your thesis a bit more, OP. Curious about your thoughts.
 
Marvin dijo:
Well that's just silly. The concept is certainly real.

Like, claiming gender doesn't exist is essentially saying that when people encounter someone who appears to be a man (regardless of genitalia), they have zero preconceived notions about what to expect from that person. It's saying that there are no overarching trends. And that's clearly not the case.
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I agree, but you can put a very beautiful girl in a tuxedo and conceal her hair with a nice hat and people would still think, "that's either a really young looking dude, or a lesbian. I am going to be respectful, but this person is making uncomfortably attracted to them."

People may want to project as other genders, but if you don't at least look the part ( at least 60-80 percent), people will either think you're crazy (CWC) or they'll think you're a young boy or lesbian.
I respect everyone's right to express whatever they want or however they want, but no one can police the world and ask them to believe something that visible reality denies.
 
As posed in the title of the thread, the answer is trivially "Yes, gender identity exists".

As in, I'm a man, which is importantly different from what I have between my legs. When I say "I'm a man" or "I'm a boy" I'm not just saying that I have a dick, I'm talking about a lot of social and cultural facts about who I am and how I exist in society. The same goes for females. Now, we might think that having or not having a dick is important to determining one's gender identity (since what gender role you assume is governed by a social norm about your biology), but it seems clear that there is more to it than that (chiefly social/cultural stuff).

This includes things like what I've been brought up to enjoy, what role I play in society, what clothes it is socially acceptable for me to wear, etc. This sort of thing is worth teasing apart from simple biology, since it clearly plays an important role in people's lives and isn't reducible to any biological fact (i.e. there is no biological reason for it to be unacceptable for men to wear skirts, it is just a social fact about American society).

Whether or not it is possible to have a biologically female brain and a male body, on the other hand, is a totally different question. Actually, I know some professors who don't like to cast trans shit in biological terms, though if you go that route I worry you're admitting it is just a choice you are making, which seems wrong. Because of this, I think talking about trans as an issue of gender identity is actually unhelpful, since gender seems to refer to non-biological social facts about a society rather than what a person physically is. And, if I understand correctly, being trans is emphatically not supposed to be a social phenomenon, but rather a physical fact about a person that they cannot chose. A trans person doesn't choose to want to adhere to female gender roles, they encounter themselves as a woman mentally despite having a man's body such that there is a conflict between who they are on the inside and outside (hence dysphoria).

Now, they will want to adhere to their preferred sex's associated gender roles, but this is a social fact about wanting to fit into our cultural framework (i.e. to be recognized as a woman since you mentally are one by conforming to societal norms that dictate biological women adopt a certain gender role) and not directly a function of the physical facts of trans-ness.
 
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