Is gender identity real?

[Aquinas]

Yes, it's real, and the next time Chris pepper sprays someone or runs them over he should be sentenced to women's prison.

He would like this, A-log.

If i idenfified as mayogendered, would a tumblrite be forced to put my mayo on their sammich at risk of offending me?

 

[Picklepower]

I don't buy into gender being a "construct" this sounds like modern bullshit, I think trans people have the right to do what they want, but they can never completely be the opposite gender.

 

[WOKE_AF 95]

I'm going to powerlevel slightly in this thread, but it's relevant to the topic and my own experience has led me to believe that gender identity doesn't actually exist. Let's look at the popular definitions of gender identity, first:

1. Gender roles ("I'm a girl because I like pink." "I'm genderfluid because I like dresses some days and suits other days.")
This one is obviously bullshit. Gender norms aren't innately part of being male or female. They vary between cultures and time, a girl doesn't stop being a girl because she decided not to wear makeup that day, drag queens dress like women but they aren't female or trans women. It's so weird to me that a lot of trans people denounce gender roles, while at the same time upholding them to the point of believing that someone who doesn't completely conform to male or female stereotypes is a third gender.

2. The presence of gender dysphoria ("I have a male brain in a female body." "I'm trans because having a penis feels wrong.")
Here's where things get a little more complicated. There have been studies done on brain sex in trans people that have found that their brains have more in common with the sex they identify as. However, other neurological research shows that brains have plasticity, meaning their shape is not innate and changes depending on other physical or environmental factors. I've been on hormones and can anecdotally tell you that the way I think and feel changed a lot. Even if a person isn't on hormones, if they are persistently living their life as if they were the opposite sex, their brain could potentially change shape and function to reflect that.
Dysphoria is the feeling that your body or parts of it are "wrong," which in trans people can manifest as discomfort with or hatred of sexed traits such as broad shoulders or an hourglass shape. But how do you differentiate between a trans man who wants his breasts reduced/removed and a cis woman who wants the same thing? How about a man who wants plastic surgery to make his face look more feminine versus a trans woman who wants the same thing? What about someone who has dysphoria but chooses to find ways other than transition to cope with it? The only difference between these people, and the only definition of gender identity left, is whether or not they "identify" as trans.

3. Identity ("This is just the way I feel, man.")
The problem with this definition is that it's circular. "I am X because I identify as X, which I identify as because I am X." It's essentially a faith-based definition. It can't be proven or disproven because it's a feeling that you just "know." Similar to how a religious person can just "know" that God is looking out for them despite having no evidence.

Sex is a different matter because it actually exists; trans activists love to use intersex people as a token to prove that it doesn't, but they are a tiny minority. Saying sex isn't real because of intersex people is like saying that because some people are born blind, it's wrong to say that humans can see. I consider myself gender critical/gender abolitionist, and I feel like the thoughts I have are not that far off from popular gender theory. I agree that the binary system of assigning behaviors to sexes isn't a good thing. The difference lies in believing that the intangible concept of gender exists, and that every gender needs a label. I don't think creating more "gender boxes" solves anything, society should just drop the expectation of things being "for men" or "for women" except when it's actually relevant based on their biology.

Thoughts?

I agree 100% and I have never seen someome so articulately and accuratley explain exactly how I feel about this topic. Bravo sir

 

[WOKE_AF 95]

sounds like modern bullshit,

Sounds more like post modern bullshit to me

 

[Mariposa Electrique]

This includes things like what I've been brought up to enjoy, what role I play in society, what clothes it is socially acceptable for me to wear, etc. This sort of thing is worth teasing apart from simple biology, since it clearly plays an important role in people's lives and isn't reducible to any biological fact (i.e. there is no biological reason for it to be unacceptable for men to wear skirts, it is just a social fact about American society).

Yeah, but you're describing "conditioning", what people don't realize is that once parents, siblings or other family see the slightest effeminate trait in a boy child, they unconsciously try to beat it out of them, driving it deeper into their psyche. Both the East and the West have done this to their male children. I am not saying I don't believe in a real biological cause for transgenderism, but what I don't believe in is that we are inherently born with just a masculine and feminine soul. We both have masculine and feminine traits that we don't even realize as such, such as pushing yourself to get out of bed in the morning or being assertive, these are masculine traits that are essential to our psycho-social and psycho-sexual. development.
We both (as men and women) also have feminine traits, like the need to fall in love and bond on a deep level with anyone regardless of gender, or like being a nurturing parent.
I think, that if we acknowledge that gender is not that important and allow men that are hypermasculine or fruity to express their feelings (without judgement), we will stop seeing a lot of trenders, and transgenderism will go back to being the statistic it was before middle aged white men decided to unload their metaphorical baggage onto the LGBT.

 

[ICametoLurk]

How can it be real if we aren't even real?

 

[Electric Eye]

Here's a pretty good response to the linked article by Dr. James Cantor on why the differences in that article just show that they're similar to cis gays and lesbians.

All right, they reflect sexual orientation. A fair point that I can't really disagree with.

But then what? It's clear their brains start reflecting that of a woman's brain or some parts according to the studies linked in the OP and if we are our brains, at what point are we supposed to scream "bullshit!" on someone claiming to be a woman?

It is true, gender is a human-made concept and not something like sex which is entirely biological. It is also true that different species have different power dynamics between the sexes.

Does that mean gender doesn't exist because it is an artifical concept? Well yeah, in the same sense that a number system doesn't exist beyond an abstract concept that exists in our heads.

Now does that mean some men identifying as women are appropriating women spaces? Some possibly are, yeah, and I think that should be the real question here.

tl;dr: gender identity is a human-made tool to identify group characteristics. Asking if it exists isn't useful. The real question should be "is identifying as a woman despite being a penis-haver unethical because vagina-havers have been discriminated in society for being vagina-havers?"

 

[idosometimes]

Few identities are real. Gender is definitely one of the fake ones. Gender cannot be validated. You can't get a gender test. It is all bunkum. Any person can be any gender at any time. It is a self-identified quality. A pretty meaningless one too. We don't really care much about gender. It doesn't determine how we make friends. It doesn't determine how we have sex. No one reads through craigslist and decides not to book the qt hooker with nice tits and an 8" cock because it identifies as "they" or "genderfluid." No one decides not to pound some boipucci because the twink identifies as two spirit.

Chris recently reminded us that there are officially 58 genders. 58 different identities. How do we come to that number? Have we reached the maximum number of discrete steps on range of gender variation? do we need more? Fewer? Look at Chris' identity. How many words does he need to describe it? And what happens when people don't' agree with that identity? Stupid Kim told him he wasn't a lipstick lesbian. She doesn't determine his identity. Only he can.

 

[Mars Attacks!]

Explain a bit more here, OP. The other two definitions are easy, obvious garbage to counter but this right here is the kicker to the "no gender identity argument."

If there have been scientific studies that show trans people have more in common with the sex they identify as, and even taking into account brain plasticity, why would that mean a gender identity wouldn't exist? And isn't body dysphoria in people (especially with regards to a sexual body part or characteristic) who don't go full-on trans just proving the people who say gender identity is a spectrum right?

Defend your thesis a bit more, OP. Curious about your thoughts.

I'm skeptical of brain sex because every study I've seen on it has very small sample sizes and like the quoted article below says, seems to deliberately misinterpret data.

Here's a pretty good response to the linked article by Dr. James Cantor on why the differences in that article just show that they're similar to cis gays and lesbians.

Maybe brain sex is real, but the way the data is presented makes it seem like people are trying to find evidence to support what they already believe, rather than using the evidence to form their beliefs.

Now does that mean some men identifying as women are appropriating women spaces? Some possibly are, yeah, and I think that should be the real question here.

tl;dr: gender identity is a human-made tool to identify group characteristics. Asking if it exists isn't useful. The real question should be "is identifying as a woman despite being a penis-haver unethical because vagina-havers have been discriminated in society for being vagina-havers?"

This is something I'm concerned about TBH. The thing is that passing trans people are already permitted in opposite sex bathrooms, changing rooms, etc. Nobody questions them being there because they look like the opposite sex. But when you allow anyone into a space based on identity, suddenly a man with a full beard can claim he has a female soul and be allowed in the women's room. Plenty of women are understandably uncomfortable with this, but they aren't allowed to speak up without being called transphobic. There are sexual predators using this to their advantage. You know, the thing trans activists said would never happen.

Trans people are entitled to their own safe spaces IMO, but they don't need to take away female safe spaces to do that.

 

[Marvin]

Few identities are real. Gender is definitely one of the fake ones. Gender cannot be validated. You can't get a gender test. It is all bunkum. Any person can be any gender at any time. It is a self-identified quality.

Few identities? Nonono, let's be logically consistent here. You're saying that, without some objective measure, a particular identity cannot be real. But all socially defined identities share that same property. Basically, by that standard, no identities are real.

Hipsters aren't real. The word "hipster" is entirely meaningless and any sort of linguistic understanding you might perceive behind the word is imagined. Same thing with "Jew". Jews aren't real. Muslims aren't real. No human-conceived social striations ever have been real.

Ultimately, I want to emphasize that words have meaning, even if you can quibble about the specifics. That doesn't mean that the concept doesn't exist. It doesn't mean it doesn't have useful applications in the world.

Muslims quibble over who's a "real" muslim. Does that mean that the word is meaningless though? Hell no. I have no problem talking about Muslims, and I know you guys will know what I mean when I use the word.

Heh, y'know, SJW/butthurt Canadians sometimes get cranky when you use the word "American" to exclusively refer to US citizens. If you ever see a lolcow Canadian talking about USians, that's where it's coming from; Anti-Americanism + an attempt to make a political point with goofy language constructs.

The SJW approach to gender, that you're required to recognize the validity of their genders without questioning anything, is obviously stupid. But what you're saying is the logical inverse, and in the same way, is just as stupid.

Gender's an established concept. The word wasn't just invented in the last 10 years, y'know.

 

[Mars Attacks!]

Side note and relevant to the topic: Someone on Tumblr did a survey of detransitioned people. It's interesting that a lot of the people surveyed used to identify as transmedicalist/truscum (TRUE and HONEST transsexuals who believe you need dysphoria and a diagnosis to be trans) and later realized they were actually running from something else about themselves. I know it's Tumblr so take it with several grains of salt, but this is the first survey of its kind and really demonstrates how flimsy gender identity is.

 

[Marvin]

Side note and relevant to the topic: Someone on Tumblr did a survey of detransitioned people. It's interesting that a lot of the people surveyed used to identify as transmedicalist/truscum (TRUE and HONEST transsexuals who believe you need dysphoria and a diagnosis to be trans) and later realized they were actually running from something else about themselves. I know it's Tumblr so take it with several grains of salt, but this is the first survey of its kind and really demonstrates how flimsy gender identity is.

Well, this would be specifically for people who detransitioned. You'd need to talk to people who transitioned and stayed in their new identity to get an full understanding of the situation.

The reasons for detransitioning are interesting though. Shifting political/ideological beliefs at 63%, and discovering alternative coping mechanisms at 59%. (You can check multiple items.)

Seems to me that these women came to peace with the idea of being merely a butch woman, instead of a full "man".

 

[idosometimes]

[stuff]

Identity has no meaning when the only requirement is saying you are a member of the group. Vonnegut called these "granfalloons" in "Cat's Cradle." Anyone can identify as a Muslim. Homos say they are Muslims or Mormons. The rules say no dick sucking. Whose identity do we accept? What about excommunicated Mormans? The club says they are out. Can they still call themselves Mormons?

You can contrast that to group memberships that require some type of accomplishment or fee. You aren't a whatever you do because you say you are. You are because you got degrees and certifications and licenses. You are a lawyer or scuba whatever or . Most social identities are made up. You say it so you are it. Chris gets to use a women's restroom and shower with women at the health club because he says he's a woman. Muslims who work as rent boys consider themselves Muslims (and some even do the ritual after sex washing voodoo).

Gender's an established concept. The word wasn't just invented in the last 10 years, y'know.

Being invented 50 years ago doesn't make it any better. It was borrowed from linguistics. It wasn't used at all for humans prior to the 1950s and didn't become an accepted concept until the 1970s.

 

[Marvin]

Identity has no meaning when the only requirement is saying you are a member of the group. Vonnegut called these "granfalloons" in "Cat's Cradle." Anyone can identify as a Muslim. Homos say they are Muslims or Mormons. The rules say no dick sucking. Whose identity do we accept? What about excommunicated Mormans? The club says they are out. Can they still call themselves Mormons?

You can contrast that to group memberships that require some type of accomplishment or fee. You aren't a whatever you do because you say you are. You are because you got degrees and certifications and licenses. You are a lawyer or scuba whatever or . Most social identities are made up. You say it so you are it. Chris gets to use a women's restroom and shower with women at the health club because he says he's a woman. Muslims who work as rent boys consider themselves Muslims (and some even do the ritual after sex washing voodoo).

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

My point was that the lack of an objective standard does not mean the word does not have meaning. For example, you're referring to Muslims in your post. Ignore the gay stuff. Just consider the fact that various Muslim groups disagree about who qualifies as Muslim. Does that mean that Muslims aren't real?

Being invented 50 years ago doesn't make it any better. It was borrowed from linguistics. It wasn't used at all for humans prior to the 1950s and didn't become an accepted concept until the 1970s.

My focus was more on the "concept" part of that, not so much the "word". But even the original linguistic word itself was intertwined with what we'd now refer to as gender.

 

[AnOminous]

I have as many testicles as there are real genders.

 

[Rip_In_Pepperino]

There are sexual predators using this to their advantage. You know, the thing trans activists said would never happen.

The linked article is about the case of Christopher Hambrook, which is at best an outlier.

Chris recently reminded us that there are officially 58 genders. 58 different identities. How do we come to that number? Have we reached the maximum number of discrete steps on range of gender variation? do we need more? Fewer? Look at Chris' identity. How many words does he need to describe it? And what happens when people don't' agree with that identity? Stupid Kim told him he wasn't a lipstick lesbian. She doesn't determine his identity. Only he can.

I explained this meme here: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/fb-9-17-chris-on-fb-genders.24327/page-8#post-1756001

It was derived more than two and a half years ago from a non-exhaustive search by ABC (the US TV network) for terms for gender identity and expression that Facebook would accept in user profiles, and the terms fell into seven clusters, without showing much gradation (the most gradation has three steps: "female-intermediate-male").

 

[Male Idiot]

Honestly? There's only male and female. Any more than that and you're an attention whore/special snowflake.

Roles are given to gender largely because of biological differences: For example, most men tend to be stronger than most women, so many are encouraged to engage in sports that help their strength. There are exceptions to either sex, but they are not the norm and very few in comparison.

As a human "cis" male I'm pretty confident and proud of myself and I support traditional male roles for myself and others. If you're different though I keep an open mind.

I have to agree with the additional that that gender is just a synonime for sex, and I would add "slow in the mind" to the whore/special snowflake duo.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

I personally think that there are innate tastes common to gender and that, for example it's more likely boys to be drawn to GI Joe and girls drawn to sentimental things like Care Bears. Just personal thought tho.

Marketing is also a factor. It's hard to say if anything is definitively masculine or feminine because so much of our development is influenced by our environment - our parents and culture. By the time an infant is old enough to display an interest in a certain type of toy they've already been molded to be biased one way or the other. That makes it impossible to perform a controlled experiment.

I don't think mental gender exists because it's inconsistent. Compare being mentally male or female to being an introvert or extrovert. Even though I self identify as female I must admit that I often act in stereotypical masculine ways, preferring stoicism and logic over emotions (although emotions do have merit in certain contexts). However, I also identify as an introvert and cannot say I've ever felt like or behaved like an extrovert. Extrovert and introvert have clear definitions in psychology, male and female do not.

 

[Varg Did Nothing Wrong]

Until I started becoming aware of Tumblr and the rest of the shit that is out there, I never once even had a thought as to what 'gender' I was.

Really IMHO it's entirely subjective and pretty fucking meaningless.

What always fascinates me is how trans people come to realize they are trans. What does it even mean to be "a female who feels she is male". What does it mean to feel like a male?

 

[Diana Moon Glampers]

You can identify as whatever you like, but it doesn't change reality and you can't control how others see you. You can modify your appearance to try to change how people see you, but you can't have the final say -- only they get that.

The transgender phenomenon is the same kind of culture-bound syndrome as the glass delusion. Today, if people had the glass delusion, there'd be a community of internet people insisting that some study from China on 12 people with glass identities showed that their levels of silica were very very slightly higher than the control group, indicating a biological truth to their identity as a being made partially or entirely of glass.

People should be able to wear what they want, have their hair how they want, do the jobs they're qualified for without regard to whether they're a dude who wears dresses or a woman with a buzzcut. This idea that their feelings are SO special that they're just entirely out of the realm of experience of their sex is hilarious and contradicted by the fact that there are, well, so many of them. Being a transwoman is just being a different kind of man. Being a transman is just beeing a different kind of woman. You can split hairs about female/woman and male/man all you want, but if the last 4 years of the internet has taught us anything, it's that if you give gender delusions an inch (a trans woman is a woman, just a male woman), they'll try to take a light-year (biological sex is an illusion/a spectrum).