Fake Trannies v. Real Trannies

[Internet War Criminal]

Then surely the solution would be changing diagnostic standards, not discounting the very notion that tranny people exist. We do exist and we benefit from therapies that are affirmative.

A man is a man is a man, a woman is a woman is a woman.

Bruce Jenner will always have to worry about prostate cancer, and Chaz Bono about ovarian cancer. No amount of surgery will ever change that. No amount of social justice obfuscating will change that. No amount of politically correct platitudes will change that. Facts do not care about feelings.

People do not discount that trannies exist, the same way we do not discount that schizophrenics exists, or people who are bipolars. The thing is that for every other mental illness out there, we do not go along with it. We do not pretend that someone is a Prussian Empress just because she says so, we do not pretend that they are in fact Jesus and can levitate because they think so, and we should not go along and pretend that a man is suddenly a woman because he pops on a wig and starts injecting himself with black market chinese horsepiss.

It's a terrible thing to have mental illness, and we should do everything we can to treat it, not go along with it.

 

[Null]

Let me be the first to say I genuinely do not care about transgender people. I cannot force myself to care. I've tried, it doesn't work. I don't give a fuck what bathroom they want to use, I don't give a fuck about their rights, I don't give a fuck about their quality of life. I want to hear, see, and acknowledge as little about them as is humanly possible in my day-to-day life.

This did not exist 10 years ago. When I was growing up there were no trannies. There were drag queens. There was Buffalo Bill. There was not an insignificant number of individuals causing 90% of political and Internet drama.

So with that in mind, I don't give a shit about the difference. Katsu and Christine Weston Chandler are the same in my mind. I'd put Stefonknee and ADF in the same bunch. Anyone who says they are a goose when they are a duck is insane and I am completely and totally unwilling to split hairs and figure out how to better deal with thse individuals. If medical science and trannies can get together and find a way to fuck off out of the public eye, that'd be wonderful.

 

[KatsuKitty]

A man is a man is a man, a woman is a woman is a woman.

Bruce Jenner will always have to worry about prostate cancer, and Chaz Bono about ovarian cancer. No amount of surgery will ever change that. No amount of social justice obfuscating will change that. No amount of politically correct platitudes will change that. Facts do not care about feelings.

People do not discount that trannies exist, the same way we do not discount that schizophrenics exists, or people who are bipolars. The thing is that for every other mental illness out there, we do not go along with it. We do not pretend that someone is a Prussian Empress just because she says so, we do not pretend that they are in fact Jesus and can levitate because they think so, and we should not go along and pretend that a man is suddenly a woman because he pops on a wig and starts injecting himself with black market chinese horsepiss.

It's a terrible thing to have mental illness, and we should do everything we can to treat it, not go along with it.

Sex-wise, you'll always be what you were born as. The point of gender-affirmative treatments isn't to "change your sex" which is a bit of a misnomer anyway. Therapies and treaments aim to reduce dysphoria, but ultimately, it can't be eliminated and just getting the physical changes is no substitute for concomitant mental therapy to adjust one's expectations.

What transgender people live as, is a different gender, which is more akin to who you are brain-wise. There's a variety of theories behind why people are trans, but one popular one is that the fetus does not neurologically complete becoming one sex or the other. That's why the "trans-racial" argument isn't an analogue; you don't "start white" and "become black" as you develop in utero.

The reason physical changes are acceptable medical treatments for dysphoria, is because there's no compelling reason, nor has it ever been demonstrated effective, to force people to conform to the expectations and ideals of their birth sex if this causes them significant distress and repeat failure to thrive or function. Radfems don't like to acknowledge it, but there's a lot of truth rooted in the natural, innate strengths and weaknesses of men and women. If your brain is built like a woman's, and people keep demanding you act like a man, this isn't something that's going to end well for you unless you take steps to act more in accordance with who you actually are. Setting up realistic expectations for physical transition is instrumental in ensuring a successful transition.

 

[Pepsi-Cola]

Let me be the first to say I genuinely do not care about transgender people. I cannot force myself to care. I've tried, it doesn't work. I don't give a fuck what bathroom they want to use, I don't give a fuck about their rights, I don't give a fuck about their quality of life. I want to hear, see, and acknowledge as little about them as is humanly possible in my day-to-day life.

This did not exist 10 years ago. When I was growing up there were no trannies. There were drag queens. There was Buffalo Bill. There was not an insignificant number of individuals causing 90% of political and Internet drama.

So with that in mind, I don't give a shit about the difference. Katsu and Christine Weston Chandler are the same in my mind. I'd put Stefonknee and ADF in the same bunch. Anyone who says they are a goose when they are a duck is insane and I am completely and totally unwilling to split hairs and figure out how to better deal with thse individuals. If medical science and trannies can get together and find a way to fuck off out of the public eye, that'd be wonderful.

yeh, like imo we should just find a way to make them women or men or whatever or correct their thingy going on there and just forget they exist.

From what I understand, being transgender is wanting to be cisgender, right? So why do trannies feel such a constant need to shove it in everybody's faces that they are indeed transgender? Ugh, just get your dik chopped off or whatever and move on with your life ffs.

 

[Melkor]

The less someone has to assert or demand that they are transgender, the more legitimate they are. All of the "real trannies" I know, MtF and FtM alike, don't make "being transgender" a keystone of their personal and social identities. They just "are" for lack of a better description.

I don't usually go into the Deep Thoughts subforum. But I might as well toss in my two cents here.

I agree with the quoted statement wholeheartedly. A lot of legit trannies don't make a huge deal about the fact that they're tranny. The only time it's brought up is when it's relevant to the conversation.

It's the people who constantly shove it in your face that you have to watch out for. If constantly shouting about your tranny issues is the only thing you do, you're probably not tranny. Not a lot of people give a shit about whether or not you're tranny.

Real trannies are just that: trannies. There's no other way to explain it.

 

[Dr. Boe Jangles Esq.]

There isn't really a difference, and the entire concept is spin control by a group of cynical assmunches who don't want to be affiliated with the screeching harpies that make up their community.
Like it or not, "Gender Dysphoria" is pop psych at its best. It's a vague, wishy-washy concept centered around how a person feels and how they view themselves, and this makes the whole "diagnosis" twaddle to amount to little more than setting up goal posts to try to keep the more autistic parts of the group from being affiliated.
The entire rigmarole of who is and isn't a Real Official Tranny, to me, reeks of a community trying to distance itself from its weirdest members. While this is understandable, the fact remains that yes, ADF and CWC and a whole heap of other cows are trannies. Trying to set up some kind of arbitrary distinction to separate the whole from its more disreputable parts is just blatant spin control. It's the old Kiwi trollshield favorite of "Well, I'm like this, but I'm not one of the bad ones".
For people who are all too often accused of trying to set up a narrative, this behavior probably isn't doing anyone any favors.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Sex-wise, you'll always be what you were born as. The point of gender

Sex IS Gender. It's like saying there's a difference between your height and the cumulative units of distance from your heel to the top of your head. Nigga, they are the same.

Imagine you take 100 normal human beings, 50 men and 50 women and you tell them

1) Divide yourself along gender
2) Divide yourself along sex
3) Choose whether you want to divide the group along either gender or sex

What will happen for the first two? 50 men on one side, 50 women on the other. Now with option 3, what will happen? A bunch of confused people wondering why someone asked them whether they wanted to pick Option A or Option A. Because they are the same.

Yes, yes, 0.1% of the population suffer from a mental disease that makes them believe its not the case. Another 0.1% are fetishists/transtenders. Those are aberrations, not the norm, and you don't start saying that 1 + 1 does not equal 2 for 99.8% of the population because of a mentally ill population screaming about it on the internet.

XY makes a man. XX makes a woman. Your sex is your gender, because those two are one and the same. No amount of tumblr will ever change that.

 

[Vitriol]

discussion is just on the right side of civility so far. I'd like to keep it that way.

be frank by all means but do not get angry at each other over differing opinions.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I think that in general it is fruitless to debate who is a "real tranny" or not but rather we should just respect everyone who passes. I think that those who care the most about passing will be able to pass and we should try not to just hunt down trannies for some sort of religiously motivated agenda like some people want but I don't think that we should go out of our way to accomodate them (I do think that ID's should be able to be changed though if that counts as going out our way)

 

[Marvin]

Sex IS Gender. It's like saying there's a difference between your height and the cumulative units of distance from your heel to the top of your head. Nigga, they are the same.

Imagine you take 100 normal human beings, 50 men and 50 women and you tell them

1) Divide yourself along gender
2) Divide yourself along sex
3) Choose whether you want to divide the group along either gender or sex

What will happen for the first two? 50 men on one side, 50 women on the other. Now with option 3, what will happen? A bunch of confused people wondering why someone asked them whether they wanted to pick Option A or Option A. Because they are the same.

Yes, yes, 0.1% of the population suffer from a mental disease that makes them believe its not the case. Another 0.1% are fetishists/transtenders. Those are aberrations, not the norm, and you don't start saying that 1 + 1 does not equal 2 for 99.8% of the population because of a mentally ill population screaming about it on the internet.

XY makes a man. XX makes a woman. Your sex is your gender, because those two are one and the same. No amount of tumblr will ever change that.

Earlier when I said that language is defined by usage, this is what I mean.

It's incredibly hard to dictate language. Sometimes people try, but it's not usually very effective. How people actually use words in real life is what really determines their meaning. Dictionaries merely document language, they don't define it.

For example, the Royal Spanish Academy regulates the Spanish language. Let's say they produced a document saying "this is spanish, nothing else is correct spanish". Would that mean that when Americans use the word "Spanish" to refer to Mexican Spanish, it's incorrect? No, it wouldn't. Try as they might, I doubt they'd persuade any significant amount of English speakers to change their mind, and dictionaries would continue to define Spanish as something like "the language of Spain, Mexico and many countries in Latin America".

I think you can see how this relates to you outright declaring gender to be the same as sex.

I would argue that a well passing transperson is effectively a man / woman if that's what most people see them as, IRL.

If you can take a random bystander, point to the transwoman and say "what is that person's gender?", and get them to answer "woman", then that's what they are. And not merely theoretically, but that's actually what they are, because that's what the word means to the bystander.

Of course, there's the issue of bedroom/sex issues. They can be really important in some circumstances, but in almost all everyday social situations, I don't think they matter too often.

(I kinda really oversimplify linguistics in this post. There's all sorts of overlapping things to consider, like dialect and slang and creoles and stuff like that. But I think the basics are on target.)

 

[shartnado]

The entire rigmarole of who is and isn't a Real Official Tranny, to me, reeks of a community trying to distance itself from its weirdest members. While this is understandable, the fact remains that yes, ADF and CWC and a whole heap of other cows are trannies. Trying to set up some kind of arbitrary distinction to separate the whole from its more disreputable parts is just blatant spin control. It's the old Kiwi trollshield favorite of "Well, I'm like this, but I'm not one of the bad ones".
For people who are all too often accused of trying to set up a narrative, this behavior probably isn't doing anyone any favors.

That's accurate, but what about, say, someone who claims to be transgender but makes no effort to pass/doesn't feel anything they'd describe as dysphoria? Since that's also a large part of the population (online, at least), but I personally feel like that's a distinction that can be made.

I'll agree that it's not going to help much if there's infighting about the people who don't pass well and certainly don't act well, it's a damn stupid hill to die on.

 

[chimpburgers]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately, trying to understand the different positions, including those of the gender critical community and their thoughts on gender dysphoria and autogynephilia and watching a lot of documentaries on transgendered people so I wanted to input my two cents on this subject. I do believe that there are those kinds of people that have gender dysphoria or some form of it that grow out of it at a later point in their lives. I don't think it means that they are "fake trannies" but it has been documented that there are a minority of people who have gone through SRS and have ended up having some kind of sex change regret. Walt Heyer has gone into this a lot when he's been interviewed or has made an appearance on programs. I don't agree with everything that he has to say, but some of his points that he made have raised some good questions on an overlooked portion of people that choose to retransition back to what their original sex was.

There really needs to be a lot of time put into making sure that a person's supposed gender dysphoria hasn't been heavily influenced by other factors and that they are indeed feeling that they are trapped in the wrong body. It has been shown in the brains of MtF transexuals that the part that holds the white matter that they have measures up with that of heterosexual females or is kind of in between a straight man and a straight woman's. I can point to several studies that show this trend occurring in these groups. In that sense, I do also believe that there are real trannies that need medical help and assistance to relieve their own gender dysphoria though I also acknowledge that there other conditions that might possibly mimic gender dysphoria in some way and that therapy should be a big part of seeing what's going on there. Those people shouldn't be pressured into trying to become something they're not just because they don't fit into a gender stereotype. Not all girls like to play with dolls and not all boys are into sports or action figures, and I've seen folks like Jazz Jennings express that because they didn't want to fit into typical gender norms that they felt that they should become a woman or what not.

Tl;dr: There are geniune trannies with real gender dysphoria that should get all the treatment that they need but posers out there like Richard and ADF and Chris who have figured out a way to mooch off the MtF tranny community and don't fully understand what gender dysphoria actually is or does to a person.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

If you can take a random bystander, point to the transwoman and say "what is that person's gender?", and get them to answer "woman", then that's what they are. And not merely theoretically, but that's actually what they are, because that's what the word means to the bystander.

By that ridiculous standards, Rachel Dolezal is actually black, lifelike robots will actually be human and any 15 with a fake ID who looks old enough is in fact 21 and over.

That's not how reality works

 

[GS 281]

By that ridiculous standards, Rachel Dolezal is actually black, lifelike robots will actually be human and any 15 with a fake ID who looks old enough is in fact 21 and over.

That's not how reality works

Ignoring the difference between genetic sex and gender again, are we?

 

[Marvin]

By that ridiculous standards, Rachel Dolezal is actually black, lifelike robots will actually be human and any 15 with a fake ID who looks old enough is in fact 21 and over.

All those things are much easier to refute than gender.

That's not how reality works

It's how words work.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Ignoring the difference between genetic sex and gender again, are we?

If, using prosthetics and make up, I can convince the whole world that I'm a 6'3" Chinese woman, am I suddenly a 6'3 Chinese woman?

I mean literally everyone buys that I am, none one knows, that's what I am officially to the rest of the world. Is that who I always was?

 

[chimpburgers]

There's another important point that I wanted to raise. It's mostly pertaining to Chris but I do think it's likely that Chris himself has been conflating being a transvestite with being a transexual. Chris is always speaking highly about his "gal pals" and I think a lot of what he's been doing is trying to act more feminine to score companionship and to find his sweetheart someday. Chris was extremely homophobic and I think due to his autism, there are many things that not even he quite understands about what he's going through. It's misguided and outright stupid in his situation and fueled by his own ignorance but that's what I think Chris really has. He's a crossdresser with delusions of grandeur that's been trying to take out loans and all this shit just to fulfill his own ideas about finding someone he can spend time with in the long run and there is a distinction between transvestites and transexuals that should be made.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

All those things are much easier to refute than gender.

It's how words work.

No they are not. According by your own standards I can become someone of another race as long as I pull it off.

If the world sees me as black an I identify as black who cares if I'm really pinoy if I pass? Who are you to say I'm not African?

 

[GS 281]

If, using prosthetics and make up, I can convince the whole world that I'm a 6'3" Chinese woman, am I suddenly a 6'3 Chinese woman?

I mean literally everyone buys that I am, none one knows, that's what I am officially to the rest of the world. Is that who I always was?

Height is measured in feet and inches, ethnic background is tracable by lineage, sex is genetically assigned by chromosomes and gender is a psycho-social phenomenon.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

I'm sorry are you saying race is not a social construct?