When is it beneficial to nationalize an industry?

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SpergaIchAAlam
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The more companies there are the more they compete with each other, thus creating better conditions for customers. Monopolies meanwhile can get away with shitty offers due to lack of competitors; nationalizing everything (as in communist countries) turns everything into a monopoly, thus creating worse outcomes for the customers.
However, there are certain industries where monopolies are inevitable; nationalizing them would be beneficial for customers, but only if the state itself is democratic, thus making nationalized company subservient to the people of the country.
Thoughts?
 
It depends on what you mean by "beneficial"
In the narrow sense, nationalization can "benefit" some customers, such as cronies or regime stooges, in the sense that they may receive cheaper or more reliable access at the point of use. That does not mean, however, that the industry became more efficient or better at serving the customer. Usually it simply means that the costs were moved elsewhere (taxpayers, non-users, future debt, lower quality, rationing, slower innovation, or politically excluded competitors)
Obviously some users can benefit, there are few things in the universe that literally nobody can benefit from. The more important question is whether nationalization solves the monopoly problem you identified, and I just don't see how it does.

Monopolies meanwhile can get away with shitty offers due to lack of competitors; nationalizing everything (as in communist countries) turns everything into a monopoly, thus creating worse outcomes for the customers.
If monopolies are bad because customers lack meaningful alternatives, then making the provider a state-backed legal monopoly does not restore customer discipline. It just permanently substitutes political mediation for exit.
nationalizing them would be beneficial for customers, but only if the state itself is democratic, thus making nationalized company subservient to the people of the country.
No, "democracy" does not change that structure. A democratic state does not make the nationalized company subservient to customers. It does make the company subservient to elections, budgets, bureaucracies, unions, lobbyists, party incentives, and concentrated interest groups.
A voter is not an owner in the same sense that a customer is a customer. The customer can refuse whatever offer the company has. The citizen is still coerced into funding the political arrangement, whether he wants the service or not.

tl;dr nationalization may benefit a politically favored subset of customers, but it does not follow that it benefits customers as customers
 
I hesitate to engage with a pink triangle, but this is a topic near and dear to my heart.

An enlightened, uncorrupted form of government (read: none in God's Earth) would indeed eventually "nationalize" many forms of human enterprise. I mean nationalize in a broad sense, either through purchase or through establishment of state-owned competitors that will eventually displace extant for-profit competition.

There are things which, in modern society, should not be done on a "for-profit" basis. Competition has its virtues, but the inevitable (and massive) inefficiencies that come with duplicating an entire enterprise just to deliver the same product is painful.

My belief is that governments should start with the most basic industries and infrastructure. Things which its population will demand globally, no matter what. Things which minimally benefit from competition yet where said duplication is most costly.

Utilities: water, electricity, gas -- energy in general. Transportation. Infrastructure. No-frills food production (staples). Distribution (supermarkets). In the modern era, computing capacity. Banking, payment services.

Anything where the answer is "does everyone need this at some point or other?", a just government would do well to strive to provide in an efficient manner.

Private enterprise should absoultely be a thing, but it should flourish in serving the non-essential aspects of what we want out of life.
 
but only if the state itself is democratic
Meaningless. Democracy, especially the ones we're used to in "the west", is NOT an enlightened or well-meaning form of government.

The more companies there are the more they compete with each other, thus creating better conditions for customers
Competition is not the only way to improve a given undertaking. It is just an incentive for existing enterprises to do better -- for fear of being snuffed out.

The incentives to do better can come from other places, ones that do not require duplicating an entire company just to deliver the same product.
 
Meaningless. Democracy, especially the ones we're used to in "the west", is NOT an enlightened or well-meaning form of government.
I mean actually democratic, not oligarchy controlled by a hostile foreign ethnic group with cultist religious tendencies.
The incentives to do better can come from other places, ones that do not require duplicating an entire company just to deliver the same product.
Name those.
 
My country (Argentina) has a gas and oil company called YPF which has been in the hands of the state for decades, it was created at the start of the 20th century by the state, it was sold, and nationalized a few decades ago, the point being that when it was in the hands of the state it was always used to do shitty populism, YPF was used to provide cheap oil and gas at a loss to make citizens happy and therefore provide more votes, who cares if it loses money right? We even had to import oil and gas because production was so low.

Now, with Javier Milei in the government, the stock price went from 3 USD to 45 USD, we had a bunch of announcements when it comes to foreign investments worth of dozens of billons of dollars (in oil and gas investments) coming to the country, we no longer need to import oil and gas, wanna know why it works so well? Because Milei's government idea is to make YPF value as high as possible so it can eventually be sold for a fuckton of money, my point is that when a company is run by the state it's ran like shit to make money from corruption and to win votes, in the strange cases when it's ran efficiently by the state it's done so because they want to sell it, companies should not be owned by the state, the incentives are not the same because state owned companies don't need to make profits.

If you want something to be done by the government for ideological reasons then create a charity and use your own money to start a company that runs at a loss or something, all of the people who agree with you should donate to it (they won't), don't bother society with your ideologically fueled stupidity, put your money where your mouth is and do it yourself.
 
My belief is that governments should start with the most basic industries and infrastructure. Things which its population will demand globally, no matter what. Things which minimally benefit from competition yet where said duplication is most costly.

Utilities: water, electricity, gas -- energy in general. Transportation. Infrastructure. No-frills food production (staples). Distribution (supermarkets). In the modern era, computing capacity. Banking, payment services.

Anything where the answer is "does everyone need this at some point or other?", a just government would do well to strive to provide in an efficient manner.
I think you're getting it backwards
The fact that everyone needs something is not a reason to remove competition, exit, profit/loss discipline, and private alternatives. The other way around, it is a reason to treat these things as more important, not less important.

If an industry is trivial, like, say, Funko Pop production, then a monopoly is merely annoying. If an industry provides water, electricity, food, banking, transport, or computing capacity, then a monopoly becomes existentially dangerous because the customer has much less room to walk away.
Competition has its virtues, but the inevitable (and massive) inefficiencies that come with duplicating an entire enterprise just to deliver the same product is painful.
No, competition is not just several firms pointlessly building the same thing. It is the process by which different methods, prices, supply chains, quality levels, risk strategies, maintenance standards, and customer priorities are tested against reality.
When duplication is indeed wasteful, then the people who made the bad investment tend to eat the loss. When the duplication is instead useful, then we call it "redundancy" or "resilience" or "capacity"
There are things which, in modern society, should not be done on a "for-profit" basis.
"Not for profit" just doesn't remove the economic problem. Someone still has to decide what gets produced, where resources go, what gets maintained first, which customers are prioritized, how shortages are handled, and what tradeoffs are accepted. Profit and loss are signals that tell producers whether they are creating more value than they are consuming. It is by no means just a private greed layer on top of production.
A state provider just doesn't make costs go away. Instead, costs are moved into taxes, debt, rationing, political bargaining, lower quality, slower innovation, and/or captive funding by people who did not choose the service.
An enlightened, uncorrupted form of government (read: none in God's Earth)
Well, if the case for nationalization depends on a government that does not exist...
Competition is not the only way to improve a given undertaking. It is just an incentive for existing enterprises to do better -- for fear of being snuffed out.

The incentives to do better can come from other places, ones that do not require duplicating an entire company just to deliver the same product.
You're really underselling competition there. Competition is an entire correction mechanism. Customers can leave, investors can stop funding failure, competitors can try different methods, bad decisions impose losses on the people making them, good decisions attract more resources.



Anything related to law enforcement and the military. Undoubtedly a very unprofitable industry mainly funded by government entities, rather than private individuals.
Huh?
Law enforcement and military services in their current form are "unprofitable" largely because they are not structured as market services in the first place. They are funded via taxation, insulated from ordinary customer refusal, and operated as monopolies over coercion. The lack of profitability does not show that these things should be nationalized. On the contrary, it shows that they already sit outside of normal market discipline.

Plus, there's also an important distinction to make between security, defense, arbitration, investigation, insurance, restitution etc. as services and the state's claimed monopoly over final coercive authority. The former are genuine services, the latter is a political privilege.
If you're arguing that industries become suitable for state control whenever they are difficult to fund through voluntary means, I reckon the argument quietly replaces "customer benefit" with "forced funding"
 
I mean actually democratic, not [whatever western powers that style themselves as democracies are]
Whether the people have any say in their governances is, in abstract, irrelevant to the quality of how they are governed.

All western nations are "democracies" yet we're witnessing the real-time annihilation of our cultures and peoples. In 80 years, in the land I was born, nobody will speak the language I was taught by my mother. Please wean yourself off the Hollywood notion that "democracy == good".

Name [incentives, other than competition, to motivate better results].
Not being Indian. Caring about what you're doing.
 
When a company is vital to national defence or security interests but struggles to be competitive on the international market. We can't allow these companies to fail and for our defence to rely on imports and everyone knows it that's why the government often pays out ridiculous amounts of money on contracts related to arms and security.
 
Only lolberts think nothing should be nationalized. Obviously public utilities, communication services, some scientific enterprises, etc. should be nationalized and recieve public funding.
 
Mass transit, outside of aeroplanes, isn't doing particularly well under privatised models.

One of the great stumbling blocks impeding a new golden age of American rail travel has been that rail infrastructure in desirable rail corridors is owned by the freight companies, which is fair since they built it. However, it leaves passenger services at the mercy of freight operators' decisions on when and where to allow them. Conversely, European rail networks are public infrastructure built with government cash and tasking private operators to run services competitively.
 
Only lolberts think nothing should be nationalized. Obviously public utilities, communication services, some scientific enterprises, etc. should be nationalized and recieve public funding.
If it's so obvious, surely you can explain it?
Important industries are not made safer when you place them under institutions funded by coercion and disciplined primarily by politics. The customer just becomes someone who can be forced to pay, instead of someone who can leave.
"Public funding" also does not mean "members of society chose to fund it", it means some people are forced to fund it because political actors decided the project should exist.
So how do you get from "this is important" to "the state should own or fund it by force"?



Mass transit, outside of aeroplanes, isn't doing particularly well under privatised models.

One of the great stumbling blocks impeding a new golden age of American rail travel has been that rail infrastructure in desirable rail corridors is owned by the freight companies, which is fair since they built it. However, it leaves passenger services at the mercy of freight operators' decisions on when and where to allow them. Conversely, European rail networks are public infrastructure built with government cash and tasking private operators to run services competitively.
The American rail problem you're describing, from what I know about it, is a coordination and access problem. Passenger service depends on infrastructure that's controlled by freight operators, whose own use of that infrastructure may conflict with passenger scheduling. That explains why the current arrangement may result in bad outcomes for passengers.
But that doesn't get you all the way to "the industry should be nationalized". The lesson learned is more like "rail corridors involve hard right-of-way and coordination problems, and passenger rail may suffer when infrastructure access is controlled by parties with conflicting priorities". Which leaves open several different possible answers. Private passenger-owned track, contractual access rights, vertical integration by passenger operators, private rail corridors, easements, competitive franchising, public infrastructure with private operation, to name just a few. Not the same as nationalizing an industry.

The European model is closer to separating infrastructure from operation, not "the state runs rail". At the service level, the value of competition is still conceded.
 
this is a good thing
Then I guess the disagreement isn't even about whether nationalization benefits customers. You're openly saying that forcing unwilling people to fund projects selected by political actors is good.
Then I ask you: what is the limiting principle? Who may force whom to fund what, and by what standard?
Without that, "public funding is good" is no different from saying "projects that I approve of should be financed by people who did not choose them"
 
Then I guess the disagreement isn't even about whether nationalization benefits customers. You're openly saying that forcing unwilling people to fund projects selected by political actors is good.
Then I ask you: what is the limiting principle? Who may force whom to fund what, and by what standard?
Without that, "public funding is good" is no different from saying "projects that I approve of should be financed by people who did not choose them"
The average citizen is fucking retarded and doesn't know what should or shouldn't be funded. Yes, the government should take money from 90iq retards and use it to fund science, medicine, communication, power, etc, as has been the case for all of human civilization.
 
The average citizen is fucking retarded and doesn't know what should or shouldn't be funded. Yes, the government should take money from 90iq retards and use it to fund science, medicine, communication, power, etc, as has been the case for all of human civilization.
If "citizens are too stupid" justifies forced funding for science, medicine, communication, and power, then what stops the same reasoning from funding propaganda, censorship infrastructure, mass surveillance, industrial favoritism, or whatever else the political class calls necessary?
I'm not calling into question that science or medicine are valuable, but the issue is whether such value justifies forcing unwilling people to fund projects selected by political actors. You're basically calling for rule by whoever controls the funding apparatus, which is the exact thing that is responsible for war, replacement migration, democide, and communism.

In the end, you're not even arguing that nationalization serves customers, you're saying customers may be overruled because the rulers know better, in spite of the mountain of evidence to the contrary
 
No actually I just think free market absolutist libertarians are misguided and using taxes to fund various projects, including industries that have been nationalized, is completely reasonable and has been done well for hundreds of years.
 
No actually I just think free market absolutist libertarians are misguided and using taxes to fund various projects, including industries that have been nationalized, is completely reasonable and has been done well for hundreds of years.
A much softer formulation, but the issue is still unresolved.
"taxes have funded things for hundreds of years" does not give a standard for when such forced funding is justified. Many political arrangements have existed for centuries, including slavery and human sacrifices. Duration definitely does not establish legitimacy, efficiency, nor customer benefit.
Again: what is the principle?
If the standard is "the project is valuable", then almost every single possible political faction can use that argument. They all think their preferred projects are valuable.
If the standard is "the government has done some things well before", that still does not tell us which industries should be nationalized, who decides, how the decision is limited, or why unwilling people may be forced to fund it.

And "reasonable" is just doing the same work that "obviously" did earlier. Reasonable by what measure? Lower cost? Better service? More innovation? Less corruption? More accountability? More customer choice?

This thread is about whether nationalization benefits customers. My point is that turning customers into captive funders does not become customer benefit just because the project sounds socially useful.
 
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