Waco discussion - Yeehaw we're glowing

[JohnDoe]

The whole thing was because the Clintons and Janet Reno wanted to make an example of what they saw as "right-wing extremists and civilian militias". They didn't like the idea of a large group of people who were armed and organized, because if more people get armed and organized it takes away the control the government can exert over them. It had nothing to do with child abuse, Koresh marrying minors, drugs, or anything else. Those are just excuses to cover for the real motivations for the raid. Ruby Ridge was the same story. In fact, Randy Weaver was set up by an undercover agent. He was pressured by the undercover agent for a long time to cut down a shotgun to an illegal length. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI HRT sniper who shot Weaver's wife while holding their baby, was also present at Waco.

All those people, including innocent women and children, slaughtered because the ATF wanted funding and because the Clintons and Reno hated that they exercised their right to own firearms. And their legacy has been to be slandered/libeled and lied about. The whole reason we have the Second Amendment is to protect ourselves from a government drunk on power like this.

Yeah, I dont think it can really be overstated how vast the gap between the feds' facade of "ultra high tech and intelligent force of nature in which everyone is a super-genius detective" and the reality of "upjumped cop agency made up of the same salaryman specimens you find in your average insurance company and infested with barely functional autists, political hires, and nepotism beneficiaries who were able to cram/nig/bribe their way aboard" truly is.

Waco reeks to me of a bunch of upjumped fuckwits in command being given a blank cheque to "resolve things quickly" and promptly deciding to throw everything they had access to at the situation as a "badass show of force/shock and awe" they thought would reflect well on them to their higher ups, and nobody around or beneath them had the brains or spine to tell them this was a bad idea until after they started picking out chunks of scorched babyflesh from the tank treads, at which point everyone involved, from federal grunt to president blowjob himself, panicked and tried to cover everything up once they realised how badly they fucked up

I thought this two points from the last thread on this topic were worth bringing back. And I'll quote myself a little too.

Koresh was on good terms with the local sheriff and would have come down to the station if the sheriff had been allowed by the FBI to call him before the raid.

Yeah, from all the contemporary sources it seems like if there were actual, reasonable warrants with legitimacy they could have handed them to the sheriff and everything could have gone off without a hitch. Sadly it seemed like the alphabet agencies weren't interested in doing things effectively without loss of life.

I remember @JohnDoe and @Jet Fuel Johnny making posts debunking this kind of argument* a while ago.

*about 2nd Amendment vs gov tyranny, etc

Those arguments were more about general civic insurrection, but as others stated this was completely different; the Branch Davidians were just some church people trying to keep their children from being murdered. If they had been out to stack Fed bodies high they would have and could have done so with ease. Whether or not that would have led to fewer of their kids being ultimately murdered by their government is a mystery for the ages.

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

it's not great that that happened and people were harmed. But humans die, that's what they do

 

[Poppavalyim Andropoff]

Waco was 50 days too long.
Fucking nut jobs brought it on themselves.

Seeing Timothy McVeigh being interviewed by news crews on the scene but and us flipping out cause we thought it was someone we knew ... then he‘s on wanted posters

 

[Not Really Here]

There was absolutely no reason the feds couldn't have gotten anyone targeted for arrest while they were out and about in town. They clearly wanted a media circus conflict and they got it, but it went out of control for them.

And this combined with Ruby Ridge is why boomercons don't fedpost, at this point the Feds don't even require a right winger to be a danger before they come down like a ton of bricks, they'll find a sucker and offer free destructive devices just to keep the pressure on.

 

[Bosmadden]

On the 28th anniversary of Waco, I was wondering what were your thoughts? Was the ATF justified? Were the Branch Davidians at fault? Is there any parts of the officla narrative you disbelieve? Who set the fire? Was the teargas justified? How would you handle the situation?
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Personally I think it's pretty ridiculous to act as if the loss of some many lives during a raid isn't somehow the responsibility of the government if it gets out of hand. I know theres audio of BDs talking about fire, but they were using candles. A 51 day standoff is ridiculous and the ATF essentially was using it as a publicity stunt to boost their budget.
I understand some of the Branch Davidians were sick criminals and it's a cult so you can't convince them easily, but if the ATF was less bombastic it would have worked out better.

Good article covering waco:

https://ammo.com/articles/waco-siege-branch-davidian-compound-standoff-atf-raid-us-federal-government

https://archive.md/EemJf

Immediately after making that tweet the ATF posted a muh diversity sticker.

Whoever is managing their twitter account is a psychopathic cunt.

As for the raid itself, the rationale was to serve a warrant for supposed gun law violations. It changed rapidly to "protecting the children" when people started asking what the fuck motivated them going in guns blazing for such a small beer charge.

Using battle tanks and incendiary grenades to attack a compound with children inside is the act of a murderous lunatic.

Let's not forget that the Feds shot first, covered up the evidence and then took selfies amid the charred remains of infants. Fuck them I'm glad they died.

 

[Rungle]

They are glowing in hell now, and terry is making them run infront of his car for all eternity

 

[Cypher]

Whoever is managing their twitter account is a psychopathic cunt.

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but the ATF does this every year. They get ratio'ed every god damn time and they still keep posting it again and again. It's not even like the CIA twitter, where they just say stupid shit and get mogged for other things. They post this event every year, like you're supposed to be sad about it.

I don't think they're doing this in some memorializing bullshit. I think they genuinely are posting this with sociopathic glee and giving everyone the middle finger.

 

[FEETLOAF]

Another point to add to this is that the media didn't just show up, they were invited to come by the ATF. This was the ATF trying to justify its existence.

The reason the firefight happened was because the retarded reporter the ATF told to show up got lost and asked for directions in town, and the friendly locals tipped off the Davidians. The Davidians were armed already when the ATF showed up, which made the spooks spooked, so they opened fire.

Fuck journos so hard.

 

[potato in mah painus]

One simple fact stands, and the reason I have 0 sympathy for the law enforcement that carried out the orders to siege that building. Koresh and his followers went on frequent walks, often enough that even the smallest of recon would have spotted. Instead of arresting him and his followers that way, the made a gruesome spectacle of the compound.

I'm happy Oklahoma City Bombing occurred in retaliation. Because it showed the government that if you commit a blatant heinous act and declare yourself innocent, there are people that will treat your organizations as fair game for equally as heinous acts.

 

[Drain Todger]

Counterpoint: The ATF should deliver Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to every US citizen over the age of 18.

As for the Waco thing, they should have arrested Koresh while he was out on his morning jog.

I, too, have always been disappointed that the BATF wasn't a store.

Instead, it's a bunch of whiny, pathetic little gun-grabber cunts, just as you'd expect.

Before I saw this bodycam clip, I envisioned them as stone-faced gubmint badasses who were not to be fucked with. I will never see them the same way ever again.

 

[Dom Cruise]

While they probably didn't intend it to end in a massacre, they wanted a spectacle of a show of force, because like I said they wanted to send a message to Christians in America not to get too excited by the coming year 2000 and to spook other right wing elements in the US.

The whole shitty mess though, including the Oklahoma City Bombing, was giving people in the 1990s a taste of the "new millennium"

 

[Gravityqueen4life]

they could have just waited it out but some big shot decided his/her time was more important than the lives of some filthy radicals. they let those people burn to death thats how little they cared.

 

[Bad Gateway]

In terms of problem solving, Waco is what's known as a Win-Win-Win. The ATF won because they got a cool show of force, the Branch Davidians won because they got to see their God, and we all won because memes. Really, there is no downside here.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

The Branch Davidians had a thing going on where dudes couldnt have sex with their wives but Koresh could. By default they were cucks who deserved their incineration.

but, that doesn’t give the Feds any right to go murder them and their children.

 

[Punished Benis]

The Branch Davidians had a thing going on where dudes couldnt have sex with their wives but Koresh could. By default they were cucks who deserved their incineration.

but, that doesn’t give the Feds any right to go murder them and their children.

Based Koresh.

A song for the poor dead ATF agents.

 

[mr.moon1488]

I, too, have always been disappointed that the BATF wasn't a store.

Instead, it's a bunch of whiny, pathetic little gun-grabber cunts, just as you'd expect.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=gb1MVFDy_tw
Before I saw this bodycam clip, I envisioned them as stone-faced gubmint badasses who were not to be fucked with. I will never see them the same way ever again.

Lol, apparently they're completely retarded too. I can't imagine them being dumb enough to not contact the local PD to tell them they were going to have plain-clothed agents working in the area beforehand.

 

[Serbian Peacekeepers]

I wanna approach this from a different angle and think of it from the view of a ATF agent at Waco.

Spoiler: My long post of what i think a ATF officer was thinking during the siege.

I am likely ex-military or police, likely served in some branch of the armed forces either way and have used my gun before. I'm sent to Bumfuck nowhere texas to serve a no-knock warrant because the brass needs money for their new car or something. We pull up after being hyped up about these guys being like the Iraqis but 10 times more crazy , and they have grenades, I take cover behind a car and watch David "ATF suck my holy sword" Koresh walk out trying to defuse the situation when I hear a gunshot, I don't know from where or from who but all my fellow officers are now unloading into the building so I follow their lead. We start running low on ammo and we call a cease-fire and retreat with our dead and wounded back to a staging area, now I'm pissed at these looney fucks in this poorly built shed of a compound. I have no love for these guys now, they are no different to me than an Iraqi in Kuwait, they killed and wounded my comrades. At this point to me this isn't a hostage situation this is a battle, I wait every day for the ability to cap one of these loons. It's now been 51 days in this stalemate, they've let kids out but they still aren't giving up, and today they bring in the big guns, tanks start tearing down the building and filling it full of CS gas (as far as I know), suddenly a fire breaks out and people start running, my 51 days of anxiety and anger are unleashed on these poor souls who come running out of their burning home and my and many of my fellow officers start firing at them. Once the smoke settles I pose for a photo with the burned down remains of this hell of a building. I am not partial to any ATF government conspiracy, I am just an angry, stressed-out officer wanting revenge, is this wrong in my line of work? Yes, but I'm only human.

The main thing to remember is that each decision on the ground wasn't 100% made by the people who knew all of the details, a lot of them were made by people who knew no more than heavily armed suspects were firing at their guys and killing them. While the firing at the people fleeing the compound and the clear aggressive actions and quotes towards/about them (i.e an ATF officer telling Davids mom the day before the tank attack when she left "hope you said goodbye") are horrific things, these weren't things said/did/ordered by dc, they were done in the heat of the moment.

 

[Bad Gateway]

I wanna approach this from a different angle and think of it from the view of a ATF agent at Waco.

Spoiler: My long post of what i think a ATF officer was thinking during the siege.

I am likely ex-military or police, likely served in some branch of the armed forces either way and have used my gun before. I'm sent to Bumfuck nowhere texas to serve a no-knock warrant because the brass needs money for their new car or something. We pull up after being hyped up about these guys being like the Iraqis but 10 times more crazy , and they have grenades, I take cover behind a car and watch David "ATF suck my holy sword" Koresh walk out trying to defuse the situation when I hear a gunshot, I don't know from where or from who but all my fellow officers are now unloading into the building so I follow their lead. We start running low on ammo and we call a cease-fire and retreat with our dead and wounded back to a staging area, now I'm pissed at these looney fucks in this poorly built shed of a compound. I have no love for these guys now, they are no different to me than an Iraqi in Kuwait, they killed and wounded my comrades. At this point to me this isn't a hostage situation this is a battle, I wait every day for the ability to cap one of these loons. It's now been 51 days in this stalemate, they've let kids out but they still aren't giving up, and today they bring in the big guns, tanks start tearing down the building and filling it full of CS gas (as far as I know), suddenly a fire breaks out and people start running, my 51 days of anxiety and anger are unleashed on these poor souls who come running out of their burning home and my and many of my fellow officers start firing at them. Once the smoke settles I pose for a photo with the burned down remains of this hell of a building. I am not partial to any ATF government conspiracy, I am just an angry, stressed-out officer wanting revenge, is this wrong in my line of work? Yes, but I'm only human.

The main thing to remember is that each decision on the ground wasn't 100% made by the people who knew all of the details, a lot of them were made by people who knew no more than heavily armed suspects were firing at their guys and killing them. While the firing at the people fleeing the compound and the clear aggressive actions and quotes towards/about them (i.e an ATF officer telling Davids mom the day before the tank attack when she left "hope you said goodbye") are horrific things, these weren't things said/did/ordered by dc, they were done in the heat of the moment.

 

[Aqua Panda]

I think it's pretty clear that the Branch Davidians were nuts and Koresh had all the makings of a cult leader. Some of his recorded rants imply heavily that mass suicide/revolt would have been their eventual endgame. Koresh was openly sleeping with the different married women of the compound and was either actively diddling kids or setting up for 11-13 year old child brides.

That being said, the ATF handled it in the worst possible way. It was a show of force and media spectacle that they wanted to make a point with. (Both Clinton and Reno really wanted to hit hard the growing milita movement of the 90's. Nevermind never having the introspection to understand why so many found appeal in that insanity with what was going on with the domestic industry production collapse of the 70's-80's.)

As others have already said, basic surveillance 101 could have caught Koresh and other key members easily. Ruby Ridge was still fresh in the public's mind and the ATF never faced repercussions for sniping a woman with a child in her arms, inside her own house. The sheer cavalier attitude going on at the time lead to the worst kind of almost frat-like environment.

 

[Wormy]

A bunch of "Yee-Haw, Chucklefucks!" Cowboys who likely jack off to "Big Iron On His Hip" and El Rino wanted to play with their big government weaponry and who better to vent it on than a cult lead by a pedo and his flock who pimp their kids and let themselves be cucked by him.

It's a case of assholes finding the easiest kind of target to hate. Waco is basically the Chris Hansen story with cooler gunfights.