Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

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Everyone knows what Kris' real gender is, some just pretend they don't. Especially the Hetslop Police, you can tell they know whenever you bring up Krusie or Kriselle or the Weird Route. He's a faabulous quirky theything unless he's interacting with a female character, in which case he is a horrible oppressive straight white male.
Kris is a straight male because I said so.
I wonder if Tony is setting up a "the town doesn't matter" kind of thing similar to Red Dead 2 camp mechanics. For example, maybe your recruits help you in the end or something, but the actual rooms and "objects" that you own there are meaningless. They're fiction.
They really neutered the Knight fight, huh? With Chapter 5 looming, I went back to get the egg in Chapter 3 since I missed it back at launch, which I had put off since it would require redoing the knight fight. Now with the nerf, it took me less than a dozen tries to beat the Knight again, despite going straight for it with no warmup.

Some of it is muscle memory from learning the best way to dodge the bullet patterns, but most of it is just that it's definitely easier now. I'm glad I didn't have to struggle as much as the first time, but it does miss some of the impact it had before when it ball-blisteringly hard. I'm glad I got to beat it back in its original form.
Making the sword hitboxes match their size isn't a nerf it is better design. If you want gay bullshit hitboxes play the fight nohit or some modded nonsense.
 
The chances of Fox simply thinking that most people wouldn't interpret it that way
Then Toby is an utter fucking retard, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Toby Fox is not Stanley Kubrick on any day of the week.
People think he is though. Any line of even mild criticism is met with intense hostility from Toby's cult of personality who are belligerently incapable of accepting any valid, pointed criticism. As it stands, Deltarune and Undertale are proposed as some of the greatest modern video games - no, greatest works of modern art ever created. Undertale is the most popular indie RPG ever created and is very likely one of the most popular video games ever created. Yet, nearly no large-scale or popularly cited criticism of Undertale - an ultimately ‘mild’ game with many observable shortcomings - really exists, because the overwhelmingly majority of responses to any sincerely framed criticism are disingenuous fandom Twitter dunks from the aforementioned fandom teenagers and wokescolds with little in the way of permeable brain activity.
 
I think the rose metaphor was meant to be about how Noelle finally was turned into the soul's little bitch (in a non rapey way), with being a frozen rose.
 
Now I’m convinced there should be an “ow the edge” react. Also does Berdly being in a coma not count?
My point is less "you can kill so it's dark", it's more that Undertale feels much more raw and brutal in how its setting is told than Deltarune, even if you do spare everyone.
Even the Titan fight at the end of Chapter 4 doesn't really feel that threatening because of this. The Dark Worlds, despite everything, still feel very kid-friendly and have their edges sanded off, but that may very well be the narrative point.

I mean Berdly is a good example. During Chapter 2 the assumption was that he's dead-dead, but then along comes Chapter 4 and gives him an opportunity to be saved anyways.

Edit: I guess a good way to explain this is that, if the player doesn't know anything about Undertale's world or story, the game primes you to be suspicious and fearful of the world.

For example, up to you getting to Toriel's house, everything has been attempting to kill you. Why would you think it would be any different for Toriel? There's some very suspicious aspects about her -- having multiple pairs of children shoes, stopping you from leaving, stopping you from exploring the suspicious basement with creepy sounds playing. Maybe she's just keeping you there, pretending to be the nice caring lady, so she can throw you in the cooking pot later? Feeding you so you'll be nice and fat for the feast? It's only once you kill her that you get the final confirmation that she never wanted to harm you. But she warns you of another, a worse entity named Asgore, who may just be everything you imagined Toriel to be. And then immediately in the next area, the game attempts to establish that threatening aura with Sans too.

This is what I mean. Deltarune never really manages to replicate this kind of feeling. We're one game and 4 chapters deep, at this point we expect the softness..
 
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The Dark Worlds, despite everything, still feel very kid-friendly and have their edges sanded off, but that may very well be the narrative point.
I mean they exist purely as escapism, the dark worlds are just people's fantasies given life and them becoming dangerous or sinister is explicitly not what is supposed to happen. Deltarune is more or less just about not running away from your problems and accepting reality without losing hope, even though the whole "save the world" thing is there.

Undertale even as a setting is a lot darker than Deltarune is trying to be, it takes place after a giant race war and subsequent slow genocide and is full of things that want to kill you. Deltarune takes place in a suburb and is about teenagers fucking around and bonding with one another as they try to use the power of friendship and imagination to save da worl and shit.

The main storyline revolves around someone (presumably an adult) invading people's escape fantasies and twisting/perverting them so that they never want to leave and refuse to move on/face reality, which is a lot softer than Undertale's "we need to scalp this little shit or else we're all going to slowly die down here" deal. It's tied more to the characters emotional states than actual life-or-death scenarios.
 
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Let me put it this way.

Undertale is presented to the player as a kill-or-be-killed world from the get-go, that line is part of the game's first 5 minutes, and the path you take depends entirely upon how much you accept or reject that premise. Things ARE trying to kill you, and it's up to you to decide how you respond to that.

The first thing we're presented with in Deltarune (besides creating the vessel) is the line "No one really chooses who they are in this world". and it seems like it's fundamentally a story is about how much you accept or reject that idea and how far some people will go to escape from it.

Deltarune is not a kill-or-be-killed world, people's lives and problems are completely mundane; a marriage falling through, you not knowing who you want to be, a loved one getting sick, losing someone you care about, etc. etc.

Killing or even just seriously hurting people in Deltarune is a lot harder to achieve because this kind of story is not supposed to have those kinds of stakes even in-universe. The Dark World stuff is supposed to just be a fantasy, a safe game to escape to. When you break the fantasy and start actually hurting people in the real world it gets more... well, real than it's supposed to, which is why you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to even maybe kill someone, and Kris tweaks the fuck out after you do.

The only weapon in the entire game that actually kills enemies instead of just making them run away or incapacitating them is the Twisted Sword, which can only be crafted with 5 Shadow Crystals and a Thorn Ring. You need to really work your ass off to actually be able to kill people in this game. You need to want it.
not-made-with-mematic-v0-gqda69kbtez41.webp
 
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Just went to the shopping centre to upgrade some minions and buy some dirty magazines and then this fucking shows up:
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You guys enjoy your little web game. I'm first in line for the real-life ARG.
 
There is nothing wrong with interpreting this scene as rape, there would be nothing wrong with this interpretation being the intended one, and it was almost certainly initially designed to be interpreted as such. Pretending that Toby Fox has never heard the term "deflowering" is asinine. Pretending that nobody on the development team saw the asset and thought it could be interpreted in such a way is even more asinine. Pretending Toby Fox accidentally wrote a route to the game where you make a girl subservient to you with the climax being alone in her room giving her something she does not want is utterly fucking ridiculous.

I don't think Toby is an" uwu smol bean" who could never ever ever ever write a rape scene ever, but the assertion that he was possessed by the spirit of Judge Holden for multiple years before then immediately deleting his totally intentional rape scene after it was seen as a rape scene is pretty out there. The chances of Fox simply thinking that most people wouldn't interpret it that way and immediately took it out when way too many people did is a far more reasonable and likely option than the alternative.
Maybe I am misremembering, but I vaguely remember being told that Toby himself asked the community posting all the Undertale porn back when that all started to label it "Undertail."


This seems to indicate the same. Who knows if it's true. But if it is, I maintain Vyse's interpretation is much more likely to be correct. To me, someone as immersed as Internet culture as Toby Fox not being able to foresee that people would interpret it that way, even through the theoretical barrier of high-functioning autism making it difficult to take the perspective of others, is just unlikely. I must conclude that he knew exactly what he was doing.

ETA: Now where I differ is the notion that Toby cucked to the fans. Following my reasoning, why couldn't it be that he knew his fans are a bit nuts, he knew that it would get a strong reaction, and then responded in such a way that it preserves his somehow-relatively-innocent image while only somewhat softening the overall vibe?
 
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I mean they exist purely as escapism, the dark worlds are just people's fantasies given life and them becoming dangerous or sinister is explicitly not what is supposed to happen. Deltarune is more or less just about not running away from your problems and accepting reality without losing hope, even though the whole "save the world" thing is there.

Undertale even as a setting is a lot darker than Deltarune is trying to be, it takes place after a giant race war and subsequent slow genocide and is full of things that want to kill you. Deltarune takes place in a suburb and is about teenagers fucking around and bonding with one another as they try to use the power of friendship and imagination to save da worl and shit.

The main storyline revolves around someone (presumably an adult) invading people's escape fantasies and twisting/perverting them so that they never want to leave and refuse to move on/face reality, which is a lot softer than Undertale's "we need to scalp this little shit or else we're all going to slowly die down here" deal. It's tied more to the characters emotional states than actual life-or-death scenarios.
Calling it: Shit's gonna hit the fan when they try and use a dark world to save Rudy.
 
Possible since Kris is all about the knife. But 2 counter points

1)Toby has edited characters out of trailers/promotional material before, so there could've be party members and enemies missing

2)If the story does go with human soul flowers, they could do what Flowey does and burrow underground.
I just hope Toby doesn't miss with this game. I think there are lots of possibilities that can subvert a typical video game structure that cannot appear in any other conventional game and it will suck if there gets to be none of that.

the chapter 4 walking around free scene is really nice, I wanna have more of that
 
Now, on the important stuff, the official Tumblr account is posting Krusie edits and you guys are dooming.
I changed my attitude, as 200mg of hopium has been injected into my veins. Thinking about it, the unrequited love that those flowers partially represent would logically have Noelle as the subject, as she's the most overt about it.
 
this thread is just chud tumblr
tbh this thread is just regular tumblr at this point except with less wojack Asgore memes. Most of the trans insanity stays in its own little echo chamber, hence us not even being able to support a tumblr subforum anymore.

It's worth noting this guy is a notorious high-effort troll whose shtick was being a complete Andy Kaufman-style loser. He didn't get banned either, he just gave up the bit and deleted his account before it stopped being funny (only to reactivate, post something like 'still cant get laid. nobody want me.' and delete again) and it's been a whole thing there where the chuddier users are jokingly blaming it on tumblr staff since they've been aggressively pruning some of the grosser trans accounts and the genderspecials have been super bothered about it (including bitching about toby's joke there).
 
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