Trump/FAA Ground the 737 MAX 8 - Twitter Aeronautics Experts Weigh In

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so, everyone is blaming boeing and drumpf for these two crashes that happened on squints Ethiopian Air and Lion Air (an Indonesian airliner)

there have been two fatal crashes in the operating lifespan of the 737 MAX 8. nobody knows exactly what the cause was yet, aside from vague statements by Ethiopian civil aircraft authorities about faulty instrument readings. regardless, everyone is jumping to blame boeing because third-worlders crashed their plane. meanwhile, american and european operators have flown this same plane many thousands of times without incident. is it boeing's fault? you decide.

archive.fo

Trump grounds 737 MAX: All Boeing 737 Max planes grounded "immediatel…

archived 13 Mar 2019 20:13:41 UTC
archive.fo archive.fo

President Trump announced Wednesday the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is grounding all Boeing 737 Max planes "effective immediately," following the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed 157 people, including eight Americans. All planes in the air at the time of the agency's order were allowed to reach their destinations but prohibited from taking off again, the FAA said in a subsequent statement.

The cause of the Ethiopian Airlines crash has not yet been determined, but the incident marked the second time in five months a Boeing 737 Max 8 plane crashed within minutes of takeoff. A Max 8 jet operated by Lion Airlines crashed in Indonesia in October 2018, killing 189 people.
The FAA said the order grounding the plane "will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft's flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders." In addition to grounding flights in the U.S., the order also prohibits all Max planes from entering U.S. airspace.
"The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today," the agency said. "This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision."
Mr. Trump explained the decision was reached after new information came to light, and federal aviation officials and Boeing leadership agreed with the move. The U.S. decision to ground the planes comes as other nations have already grounded the fleet, and as the U.S. was under mounting pressure to follow suit. Canada banned Max aircraft from its airspace Wednesday, also citing new but unspecified information.

"We're going to be issuing an emergency order to ground all flights of the 737 Max 8 and the 737 Max 9, and planes associated with that line," Mr. Trump told reporters in the Roosevelt Room. "I've spoken to Elaine Chao, secretary of transportation, Dan Elwell, acting administrator of the FAA, and to Dennis Muellenberg, CEO of Boeing ... They are all in agreement with the action. Any plane currently in the air will go to its destination and thereafter be grounded until further notice. So planes that are in the air will be grounded if they're the 737 Max, will be grounded upon landing at the destination."
The president said the U.S. didn't have to ground the planes, but it was important to do so for "psychological" reasons, among other reasons.
"It's a terrible, terrible thing," the president said of the recent crash. "Boeing is an incredible company they are working very very hard right now, and hopefully they'll very quickly come up with the answer, but until they do the planes are grounded."

Some critics said the U.S. was too slow to act. When Mr. Trump spoke with Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg on Tuesday, the executive assured the president he believes the planes are safe, CBS News' Kris Van Cleave reported Tuesday. Boeing reiterated that belief in a statement Wednesday following the president's announcement.
"Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX," Boeing said. "However, after consultation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined — out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety — to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft."
Now, airlines — and passengers — are dealing with the fallout of the decision.
American Airlines issued a statement immediately after the president's announcement confirming the Boeing 737 Max fleet will be grounded, and all flights will be rebooked as soon as possible.

"Earlier today the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) informed us that based on new information, they are grounding the United States Boeing 737 MAX fleet out of an abundance of caution," American Airlines said in its statement. "American Airlines has 24 aircraft affected by this directive. We appreciate the FAA's partnership, and will continue to work closely with them, the Department of Transportation, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, as well as our aircraft and engine manufacturers. Our teams will be working to rebook customers as quickly as possible, and we apologize for any inconvenience."

even though nobody knows what exactly happened, and no one will know until investigations conclude later this year, lots of twitter experts are weighing in with their hot airplane takes:
apparently a bunch of third world countries with awful records on flight safety are the example for america, the country that literally invented air travel, to follow:
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this googolplexbrain thinks flying a plane is comparable to driving a car:
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'you had so much time to get this right,' says man who knows even less than the next-to-nothing that authorities know about the two crashes
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very intelligent gentleman believes the government shutdown prevented the plane from being 'software updated' like his ipad.
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I guess this thread will do since it's more FAA related. The Aviation Herald, which I've never seen print unreliable information, dropped a interesting update on the Ethiopia crash article: https://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0045&opt=0

On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019. The concerns reported were wiring damage to the AoA related wiring as result of foreign object damage as well as concerns with the TRIM CUTOUT switches. The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.
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Oh boy.
 
Hey I'm happy and all that the systems in place in America are helping to (and likely will) figure out what the fuck happened. BUT... fucking christ, guys. We don't gain any brownie points from having all of these great checks and balances in place if we're only using them after the plane blows the fuck up.
 
Boeing apparently outsourced the MAX software to India!
Gotta cut costs to maximize profits and ensure the executives all get a nice bonus.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ax-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers
https://archive.fo/wyKBT

It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

In offices across from Seattle’s Boeing Field, recent college graduates employed by the Indian software developer HCL Technologies Ltd.occupied several rows of desks, said Mark Rabin, a former Boeing software engineer who worked in a flight-test group that supported the Max.

The coders from HCL were typically designing to specifications set by Boeing. Still, “it was controversial because it was far less efficient than Boeing engineers just writing the code,” Rabin said. Frequently, he recalled, “it took many rounds going back and forth because the code was not done correctly.”

Boeing’s cultivation of Indian companies appeared to pay other dividends. In recent years, it has won several orders for Indian military and commercial aircraft, such as a $22 billion one in January 2017 to supply SpiceJet Ltd. That order included 100 737-Max 8 jets and represented Boeing’s largest order ever from an Indian airline, a coup in a country dominated by Airbus.

Based on resumes posted on social media, HCL engineers helped develop and test the Max’s flight-display software, while employees from another Indian company, Cyient Ltd., handled software for flight-test equipment.

Costly Delay
In one post, an HCL employee summarized his duties with a reference to the now-infamous model, which started flight tests in January 2016: “Provided quick workaround to resolve production issue which resulted in not delaying flight test of 737-Max (delay in each flight test will cost very big amount for Boeing).”

Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines disaster in March. The Chicago-based planemaker also said it didn’t rely on either firm for another software issue disclosed after the crashes: a cockpit warning light that wasn’t working for most buyers.

“Boeing has many decades of experience working with supplier/partners around the world,” a company spokesman said. “Our primary focus is on always ensuring that our products and services are safe, of the highest quality and comply with all applicable regulations.”

In a statement, HCL said it “has a strong and long-standing business relationship with The Boeing Company, and we take pride in the work we do for all our customers. However, HCL does not comment on specific work we do for our customers. HCL is not associated with any ongoing issues with 737 Max.”

Recent simulator tests by the Federal Aviation Administration suggest the software issues on Boeing’s best-selling model run deeper. The company’s shares fell this week after the regulator found a further problem with a computer chip that experienced a lag in emergency response when it was overwhelmed with data.

Engineers who worked on the Max, which Boeing began developing eight years ago to match a rival Airbus SE plane, have complained of pressure from managers to limit changes that might introduce extra time or cost.

“Boeing was doing all kinds of things, everything you can imagine, to reduce cost, including moving work from Puget Sound, because we’d become very expensive here,” said Rick Ludtke, a former Boeing flight controls engineer laid off in 2017. “All that’s very understandable if you think of it from a business perspective. Slowly over time it appears that’s eroded the ability for Puget Sound designers to design.”

Rabin, the former software engineer, recalled one manager saying at an all-hands meeting that Boeing didn’t need senior engineers because its products were mature. “I was shocked that in a room full of a couple hundred mostly senior engineers we were being told that we weren’t needed,” said Rabin, who was laid off in 2015.

The typical jetliner has millions of parts -- and millions of lines of code -- and Boeing has long turned over large portions of the work to suppliers who follow its detailed design blueprints.

Starting with the 787 Dreamliner, launched in 2004, it sought to increase profits by instead providing high-level specifications and then asking suppliers to design more parts themselves. The thinking was “they’re the experts, you see, and they will take care of all of this stuff for us,” said Frank McCormick, a former Boeing flight-controls software engineer who later worked as a consultant to regulators and manufacturers. “This was just nonsense.”

Sales are another reason to send the work overseas. In exchange for an $11 billion order in 2005 from Air India, Boeing promised to invest $1.7 billion in Indian companies. That was a boon for HCL and other software developers from India, such as Cyient, whose engineers were widely used in computer-services industries but not yet prominent in aerospace.

Rockwell Collins, which makes cockpit electronics, had been among the first aerospace companies to source significant work in India in 2000, when HCL began testing software there for the Cedar Rapids, Iowa-based company. By 2010, HCL employed more than 400 people at design, development and verification centers for Rockwell Collins in Chennai and Bangalore.

That same year, Boeing opened what it called a “center of excellence” with HCL in Chennai, saying the companies would partner “to create software critical for flight test.” In 2011, Boeing named Cyient, then known as Infotech, to a list of its “suppliers of the year” for design, stress analysis and software engineering on the 787 and the 747-8 at another center in Hyderabad.

The Boeing rival also relies in part on offshore engineers. In addition to supporting sales, the planemakers say global design teams add efficiency as they work around the clock. But outsourcing has long been a sore point for some Boeing engineers, who, in addition to fearing job losses say it has led to communications issues and mistakes.

Moscow Mistakes
Boeing has also expanded a design center in Moscow. At a meeting with a chief 787 engineer in 2008, one staffer complained about sending drawings back to a team in Russia 18 times before they understood that the smoke detectors needed to be connected to the electrical system, said Cynthia Cole, a former Boeing engineer who headed the engineers’ union from 2006 to 2010.

“Engineering started becoming a commodity,” said Vance Hilderman, who co-founded a company called TekSci that supplied aerospace contract engineers and began losing work to overseas competitors in the early 2000s.

U.S.-based avionics companies in particular moved aggressively, shifting more than 30% of their software engineering offshore versus 10% for European-based firms in recent years, said Hilderman, an avionics safety consultant with three decades of experience whose recent clients include most of the major Boeing suppliers.

With a strong dollar, a big part of the attraction was price. Engineers in India made around $5 an hour; it’s now $9 or $10, compared with $35 to $40 for those in the U.S. on an H1B visa, he said. But he’d tell clients the cheaper hourly wage equated to more like $80 because of the need for supervision, and he said his firm won back some business to fix mistakes.

HCL, once known as Hindustan Computers, was founded in 1976 by billionaire Shiv Nadar and now has more than $8.6 billion in annual sales. With 18,000 employees in the U.S. and 15,000 in Europe, HCL is a global company and has deep expertise in computing, said Sukamal Banerjee, a vice president. It has won business from Boeing on that basis, not on price, he said: “We came from a strong R&D background.”

Still, for the 787, HCL gave Boeing a remarkable price – free, according to Sam Swaro, an associate vice president who pitched HCL’s services at a San Diego conference sponsored by Avionics International magazine in June. He said the company took no up-front payments on the 787 and only started collecting payments based on sales years later, an “innovative business model” he offered to extend to others in the industry.

The 787 entered service three years late and billions of dollars over budget in 2011, in part because of confusion introduced by the outsourcing strategy. Under Dennis Muilenburg, a longtime Boeing engineer who became chief executive in 2015, the company has said that it planned to bring more work back in-house for its newest planes.

Engineer Backwater
The Max became Boeing’s top seller soon after it was offered in 2011. But for ambitious engineers, it was something of a “backwater,” said Peter Lemme, who designed the 767’s automated flight controls and is now a consultant. The Max was an update of a 50-year-old design, and the changes needed to be limited enough that Boeing could produce the new planes like cookie cutters, with few changes for either the assembly line or airlines. “As an engineer that’s not the greatest job,” he said.

Rockwell Collins, now a unit of United Technologies Corp., won the Max contract for cockpit displays, and it has relied in part on HCL engineers in India, Iowa and the Seattle area. A United Technologies spokeswoman didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Contract engineers from Cyient helped test flight test equipment. Charles LoveJoy, a former flight-test instrumentation design engineer at the company, said engineers in the U.S. would review drawings done overnight in India every morning at 7:30 a.m. “We did have our challenges with the India team,” he said. “They met the requirements, per se, but you could do it better.”

Multiple investigations – including a Justice Department criminal probe – are trying to unravel how and when critical decisions were made about the Max’s software. During the crashes of Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines planes that killed 346 people, investigators suspect, the MCAS system pushed the planes into uncontrollable dives because of bad data from a single sensor.

That design violated basic principles of redundancy for generations of Boeing engineers, and the company apparently never tested to see how the software would respond, Lemme said. “It was a stunning fail,” he said. “A lot of people should have thought of this problem – not one person – and asked about it.”

Boeing also has disclosed that it learned soon after Max deliveries began in 2017 that a warning light that might have alerted crews to the issue with the sensor wasn’t installed correctly in the flight-display software. A Boeing statement in May, explaining why the company didn’t inform regulators at the time, said engineers had determined it wasn’t a safety issue.

“Senior company leadership,” the statement added, “was not involved in the review.”

EDIT

Also, Boeing has admitted to falsifying records for a plane they delieved to Air Canada.
https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.c...falsifying-documents-of-air-canada-dreamliner
https://archive.fo/PjFKb
 
Since Boeing's monopoly is clearly no longer serving the consumer they can now be broken up. Right?

....Right?
 
Start a war betamex dijo:
You ABSOLUTELY have to fly real airplanes (a lot!) before getting your licenses. And what's more, once you get into the larger aircraft, you need a type rating for that exact model, that means training, flight time, and then a check ride.

Yeah some training IS done in simulators but the vast bulk of pilot training hours are done in the air.
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I suppose that may vary depending on who is issuing the license.
 
mindlessobserver dijo:
I am normally reflexively against extraditing US citizens to third world hell holes like Indonesia or Ethiopia, but in this particular case it would be a fitting punishment, send the right deterrent message, and more importantly the tards did cause the deaths shit ton of those countries citizens.

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‘Designed by clowns’: Boeing papers show employees slid 737 Max problems past the FAA - The Boston Globe

www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com
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We need to stop protecting our fuckups from foreign countries even when they are shitty and corrupt. Who else here remembers being disgusted when Bill Clinton intervened on behalf of that shithead teenager who got caned in Singapore? If anything, if they killed these assholes they'd be doing us a favor since we idiotically cucked our death penalty into near-nonexistence.
 
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