The EA-6B Prowler has been officailly retired from all services. - The end of an era.

thx1138 · 10 de Mar, 2019

There's a lot of dirty pool that went in to the F35, and it went into it during a time that the Bush and Obama administrations had trimmed fat, then muscle, then started hacking directly at exposed bone. For example, GE built a "Green" engine for the F35, one that could burn a specific type of cellulose-based alcohol mixture rather than the standard jet fuel...and tacked the price on to the F35. So there were two engines in development, despite the fact that the USAF (at least) hadn't specifically asked for that. The F35 has a weapons bay that nothing is currently installed in, and nothing currently can be installed in, for maybe someday a laser weapon. Because a refrigerator sized laser that can one-shot an enemy jet might get invented. Or, it might not. But there's an empty bay for one. Maybe the most infuriating thing was when Congress required the A10 keep flying, the USAF said, okay, well, we're only going to staff F35 wings with ground crew and so on from A10 wings. Surprise! The USAF told congress they didn't have the personnel to keep as many A10 wings operational.

The F35 can be a good bird, and lord knows enough air forces are buying the thing.

AA Cunningham · 10 de Mar, 2019

"which has been in use since 1972. "

The Prowler became operational with VAQ-132 in 1971.

pwnest injun · 10 de Mar, 2019

Of course no one ever shot down a Prowler! It's got a cute little nose like a puppy dog! ?

Regu · 10 de Mar, 2019

Alec Benson Leary dijo:
Since it seems relevant, for years I've heard a lot of grumbling from various sources that the F-35 program is a terrible waste of money because the thing is intended for multiple roles it can't do nearly as well as existing aircraft. Any aviatards here able to tell me if there's truth to that? Or is that kind of talk all political shitflinging by people who want to gain or protect government contracts?

The problem is that the F-22 is flat out superior in many ways, the entire point of the F-35 project was to make a F-22 that could be upgraded for future use but they managed to fuck that up and made a flat out worse plane.
The F-35 can maybe pull 9g maneuvers, though more likely 7.5g, reach a speed of mach 1.5, and go to a height of 45k feet
The F-22 however, can pull over 9g, hit over mach 2 and reach a height of 60k feet and still maintain total maneuverability as compared to the F-35 which can only maintain that at 30k.

The F-35 is also flat out lacking when it comes to the engine, able to only pull off 25k pounds of thrust compared to the F-22's 35k.

what does this all mean? that the F-22 accelerates better to a faster speed to pull off tighter maneuvers at a higher altitude. this is not to say that the F-35 is a shit plane, it's decent, but that the problem, it's decent compared to how good the F-22 is. If the USAF was smart (which it isn't) it would have gotten the stick out of it's ass and maintained both an air-superiority fighter that can perform CAS missions like the F-22 with either an upgraded A-10 or entirely new CAS plane design. Instead the USAF actively acts the other services and actively wishes for their death, so they fucked managing the A-10 as much as they could and got themselves a "multi-role" plane that will never perform CAS because fuck the other branches.

if you don't believe me on how the USAF is full of bags of dicks who actively hate everyone else, i suggest you take a look at why the US army still even uses helicopters outside of VTOL. the USAF is so fucking horrible at providing reliable CAS that the army said fuck it and made a worse options just so that they had CAS to begin with.

oldTireWater · 10 de Mar, 2019

Now the marines will have to find something else to point at when they're crying about "hand me downs blah blah blah do more with less blah blah blah GUADALCANAL!"

Just Some Other Guy · 10 de Mar, 2019

Dunkirk dijo:
The problem is that the F-22 is flat out superior in many ways, the entire point of the F-35 project was to make a F-22 that could be upgraded for future use but they managed to fuck that up and made a flat out worse plane.
The F-35 can maybe pull 9g maneuvers, though more likely 7.5g, reach a speed of mach 1.5, and go to a height of 45k feet
The F-22 however, can pull over 9g, hit over mach 2 and reach a height of 60k feet and still maintain total maneuverability as compared to the F-35 which can only maintain that at 30k.

The F-35 is also flat out lacking when it comes to the engine, able to only pull off 25k pounds of thrust compared to the F-22's 35k.

what does this all mean? that the F-22 accelerates better to a faster speed to pull off tighter maneuvers at a higher altitude. this is not to say that the F-35 is a shit plane, it's decent, but that the problem, it's decent compared to how good the F-22 is. If the USAF was smart (which it isn't) it would have gotten the stick out of it's ass and maintained both an air-superiority fighter that can perform CAS missions like the F-22 with either an upgraded A-10 or entirely new CAS plane design. Instead the USAF actively acts the other services and actively wishes for their death, so they fucked managing the A-10 as much as they could and got themselves a "multi-role" plane that will never perform CAS because fuck the other branches.

if you don't believe me on how the USAF is full of bags of dicks who actively hate everyone else, i suggest you take a look at why the US army still even uses helicopters outside of VTOL. the USAF is so fucking horrible at providing reliable CAS that the army said fuck it and made a worse options just so that they had CAS to begin with.

There was the Vietnam era saying that you could tell who was flying CAS by how close they flew to the target. Marine pilots would dive right into hell to deliver the ordinance.

Regu · 10 de Mar, 2019

Just Some Other Guy dijo:
There was the Vietnam era saying that you could tell who was flying CAS by how close they flew to the target. Marine pilots would dive right into hell to deliver the ordinance.

Yes, from what i have read the marine and even navy pilots were great, they actually did CAS and wanted to support their fellow soldier.
The Airforce on the otherhand? CAS is beneath them, how do you ask the nobility to do such a peasant's task, we're too busy playing pretend knights in the sky to actually fight a war.

Just Some Other Guy · 10 de Mar, 2019

Dunkirk dijo:
Yes, from what i have read the marine and even navy pilots were great, they actually did CAS and wanted to support their fellow soldier.
The Airforce on the otherhand? CAS is beneath them, how do you ask the nobility to do such a peasant's task, we're too busy playing pretend knights in the sky to actually fight a war.

TBF B-52s did provide some great support during Khe Sahn. Too bad we put up such a fight to keep it, only to say "eh, nvm" and ditch it soon after.

1Tonka_Truck · 10 de Mar, 2019

Dunkirk dijo:
The Airforce on the otherhand? CAS is beneath them, how do you ask the nobility to do such a peasant's task, we're too busy playing pretend knights in the sky to actually fight a war.

The AH-64 is the only reason the USAF ever allowed the A-10 to be built. They were afraid the Army would steal their airbux if the Army started providing its own CAS. They have looked down on CAS since before they became an independent branch. I need to look up the name, but the general that developed the CAS doctrine for the Army Air Corps was excommunicated after the war for being a dirty grunt lover.

BONE_Buddy · 10 de Mar, 2019

Before anyone starts jumping down my throat with pitchforks and torches, I would like to note that TAC and SAC are two completely different organizations. Your problems are with TAC. If you want CAS to stop being fucked over, you had better start trying to convince the Pentagon and Congress to establish CASC. They did it with AMC and air transport hasn't really been screwed with since.

Just remember the SAC loves you.

Regu · 10 de Mar, 2019

BONE_Buddy dijo:
Before anyone starts jumping down my throat with pitchforks and torches, I would like to note that TAC and SAC are two completely different organizations. Your problems are with TAC. If you want CAS to stop being fucked over, you had better start trying to convince the Pentagon and Congress to establish CASC. They did it with AMC and air transport hasn't really been screwed with since.

Just remember the SAC loves you.

you guys in SAC are alright, fuck those fake knights in TAC.

ForTheHoard · 10 de Mar, 2019

RIP, you ear splittingly loud piece of shit. You're the reason I can barely hear anymore. :semperfidelis:

Edit: I'm curious if anyone here has recent info on Cherry Point. There's a couple prowler squadrons there, but the boneyard on CP was packed to the brim with crashed harriers as of 10 years ago. Where do they send these things when they don't need to canni the parts anymore?

Chiang Kai-shek · 11 de Mar, 2019

Dunkirk dijo:
The problem is that the F-22 is flat out superior in many ways, the entire point of the F-35 project was to make a F-22 that could be upgraded for future use but they managed to fuck that up and made a flat out worse plane.
The F-35 can maybe pull 9g maneuvers, though more likely 7.5g, reach a speed of mach 1.5, and go to a height of 45k feet
The F-22 however, can pull over 9g, hit over mach 2 and reach a height of 60k feet and still maintain total maneuverability as compared to the F-35 which can only maintain that at 30k.

The F-35 is also flat out lacking when it comes to the engine, able to only pull off 25k pounds of thrust compared to the F-22's 35k.

what does this all mean? that the F-22 accelerates better to a faster speed to pull off tighter maneuvers at a higher altitude. this is not to say that the F-35 is a shit plane, it's decent, but that the problem, it's decent compared to how good the F-22 is. If the USAF was smart (which it isn't) it would have gotten the stick out of it's ass and maintained both an air-superiority fighter that can perform CAS missions like the F-22 with either an upgraded A-10 or entirely new CAS plane design. Instead the USAF actively acts the other services and actively wishes for their death, so they fucked managing the A-10 as much as they could and got themselves a "multi-role" plane that will never perform CAS because fuck the other branches.

if you don't believe me on how the USAF is full of bags of dicks who actively hate everyone else, i suggest you take a look at why the US army still even uses helicopters outside of VTOL. the USAF is so fucking horrible at providing reliable CAS that the army said fuck it and made a worse options just so that they had CAS to begin with.

Actually, IIRC the F-35 was never meant to be better than the F-22. It was meant to be the equivalent of the next gen F-16, whereas the F-22 is the next gen F-15. Also the 7.5g limit is for the software, lots of planes are limited to 7.5gs. I think the F-35A can pull 9gs but don't quote me on that. The F-35 and F-22 were built for different jobs and they reflect that, believe me I used to be on the F-35 is a horrible plane train too until I was informed otherwise.

Just Some Other Guy · 11 de Mar, 2019

I mean yeah, I'd take the F22 any day over the F35. At the end of the day it's still a stealth fighter with a nice sensor suite for sniping fools outta the sky. I don't think it's meant to get close for a dogfight, but it looks like it can still put up a fight if it comes to that.

Just like the F-22, I don't think there's gonna be any countries willing to test out it's performance vs their airforce.

thx1138 · 11 de Mar, 2019

ForTheHoard dijo:
RIP, you ear splittingly loud piece of shit. You're the reason I can barely hear anymore.

Edit: I'm curious if anyone here has recent info on Cherry Point. There's a couple prowler squadrons there, but the boneyard on CP was packed to the brim with crashed harriers as of 10 years ago. Where do they send these things when they don't need to canni the parts anymore?

The AMARC at Davis-Monthan out in New Mexico. People call it a scrapyard or junkyard, but outside of aircraft designated for disposal (write-offs, airframes with over hours, those removed by strategic arms limitation talks such as B52 models D-G), it's really an aircraft reclamation point. They'll remove what parts can be put back in the supply chain, then either bag or spraylat the birds where they'll sit indefinitely. Sometimes, museums want an aircraft and they'll select one for either fame ("This aircraft shot down so-and-so" or "rescued this person" etc.) or being of a notable type, and they'll uncover one and "loan" it out; sometimes (as in the case of the rare B52 operational loss), an airframe even designated for disposal can be brought back to operational status and put back in service, and D-M does most of the legwork getting it airworthy again. They do carefully maintain birds for "eventualities": for example the F117-A is kept in climate controlled storage (and a few have been returned to flight for research purposes). So while it does have a disposal area it is largely a giant garage/preservation facility more than it is a scrapyard.

not william stenchever · 11 de Mar, 2019

Dunkirk dijo:
if you don't believe me on how the USAF is full of bags of dicks who actively hate everyone else, i suggest you take a look at why the US army still even uses helicopters outside of VTOL. the USAF is so fucking horrible at providing reliable CAS that the army said fuck it and made a worse options just so that they had CAS to begin with.

The USAF should have remained the US Army Air Corps and the nuclear bombers should have gone to SAC. In addition to the savage interservice skulldrudgery you mentioned, they hate doing real work like CAS and glorify strategic bombing. They spent so much time uselessly dropping ordinance on the dirt roads of the Ho Chi Min trail and the dummy factories and powerplants of Hanoi that it blows my mind

thx1138 · 11 de Mar, 2019

not william stenchever dijo:
The USAF should have remained the US Army Air Corps and the nuclear bombers should have gone to SAC. In addition to the savage interservice skulldrudgery you mentioned, they hate doing real work like CAS and glorify strategic bombing. They spent so much time uselessly dropping ordinance on the dirt roads of the Ho Chi Min trail and the dummy factories and powerplants of Hanoi that it blows my mind

I sincerely apologize for the double post because this gets right up my goddamn nose, and I have to split off a separate post...

The guys who do CAS in the USAF are some of the best guys in the business. Go read up on the dudes who flew the Cessna A37 in Vietnam. It's an armed version of the T37 trainer jet, and for what it was, it was fucking awesome. I remember reading an article written by a pilot who said he'd come back with tree branches stuck in his fuselage some times, he'd get so close to the guys he was covering!

The A10 is a marvelous bird; don't get me wrong, it's 40 years old and nearing retirement anyway but it is telling that immediately after Operation Desert Storm when the USAF said they were going to retire it the Army petitioned Congress to make an exception to the Key West Treaty (that's right: the Army had to sign a fucking treaty like they were a conquered nation after WW2 that they would leave all fixed-wing support to the USAF). Apparently Congress and higher ups in the Pentagon were set to do just that when the USAF said "Oh no, heh, we have the funds to operate the A10!" (and they cut the fleet by half) They also tried to invent a "sexy" A10 replacement in the form of the A16, which carried a 30mm pod-carried version of the Avenger autocannon, had LANTIRN, and other doodads the A10 nominally has, and it was a dismal failure. The gun pod shook the airframe so badly the test birds had to be scrapped.

It's so fucked up that FO/FAC aircraft in Vietnam were not allowed to be armed. Little Piper Cub aircraft and they could only carry a 7.62 minigun under one wing armed with WP or tracer rounds, or WP smoke rockets in two two-shot rails under each wing. Imagine being told you had to fly into the teeth of an NVA battalion to mark for F4s, but God help you if you were armed to defend yourself. Imagine that for a minute.

There's been three times when the USAF went full retard just to fuck with the Army. In the early 60s the Army looked at their own CAS jet, a Harrier-like bird. USAF threw a fit, program was canceled. In the closing days of the war in Vietnam, the Army got serious about dedicated helicopter gunships and built the YAH-56 Cheyenne. Now, the Cheyenne was stuffed full of immature technology. The equipment that really wouldn't be perfected for almost a decade more was first put on the Cheyenne, but later came into its own on the Apache. So lack of existing tech really killed the YAH-56. But the USAF freaked right the fuck out when the Army introduced the thing because the flying prototypes had a lift wing and a top speed in excess of the A1 Skyraider (a Korean War development that the USAF grudgingly held on to for CAS work; Navy, too), and could drop bombs as well as fire missiles and rockets and cannon. They protested and called it a "fixed wing hybrid aircraft" that violated the Key West Treaty. Finally, NOT Combat related...the Army purchased some Caribou light cargo aircraft in the 80s and operated them for a while...until the USAF went whining to Congress that the mean old green wearing JERKS were stealing from them so...the Caribou were handed over to the USAF.

The thing about CAS is, the people I know who've done it as a job and have flown the A10 and other CAS birds loved it. They loved working for the guys on the ground, loved being able to help, and never shirked from their jobs. They loved the aircraft, too. But organizationally, when it comes to interfacing with the Army? The USAF is completely fucked in the head. I think if they thought they could pry helicopters away from the Army they would. SAC hates the Army because they think all future war will be ICBMS and bombers (they also hate the Navy, but that's another story). TAC hates the Army because of their philosophy of "Not a pound for air to ground" (seriously, this was a motto during the design of the F15).

Sorry for the autistic rant. I just get passionate about that shit.

not william stenchever dijo:
I wasn't trying to say that the guys who run A-10s hate doing CAS, but that the Air Force as an institution seems to painfully resent with every fiber of it's being any good it does for the other branches. An A-10 doing a gunrun on an enemy position is an event loved by everyone but Air Force brass.

Oh I didn't think you were, I'm in agreement with you all the way actually.

not william stenchever · 11 de Mar, 2019

I wasn't trying to say that the guys who run A-10s hate doing CAS, but that the Air Force as an institution seems to painfully resent with every fiber of it's being any good it does for the other branches. An A-10 doing a gunrun on an enemy position is an event loved by everyone but Air Force brass.

Regu · 11 de Mar, 2019

PortsideDave dijo:
Actually, IIRC the F-35 was never meant to be better than the F-22. It was meant to be the equivalent of the next gen F-16, whereas the F-22 is the next gen F-15. Also the 7.5g limit is for the software, lots of planes are limited to 7.5gs. I think the F-35A can pull 9gs but don't quote me on that. The F-35 and F-22 were built for different jobs and they reflect that, believe me I used to be on the F-35 is a horrible plane train too until I was informed otherwise.

yes the intention wasn't to make something better, but rather something with similar capabilities that could be easily upgraded, something the F-22 lacked. the intention was never to make a plane so much worse that it requires possibly decades of upgrading to even take on the F-22. the F-35 and follow up planes were suppose to be the Entwicklung Series of planes, offering modest (if that) upgrades to the design while massively simplifying production and allowing for a ton of future upgrades.

Pocket Dragoon · 11 de Mar, 2019

1Tonka_Truck dijo:
I need to look up the name, but the general that developed the CAS doctrine for the Army Air Corps was excommunicated after the war for being a dirty grunt lover.

While not excommunicated, Gen. George C. Kenney made quite a few enemies during his career. He was an absolute badass; along with being one of the few men who took arguments to MacArthur, and won, without being fired afterwards.

His first book General Kenney Reports (1949) is a highly informative and easy read, though fairly long at 500+ pages. However, it can be picked up, opened to any random page or chapter, and provide a satisfying read for 15min (it's excellent as a bathroom book).

Gen. Kenney essentially codified CAS doctrines, and the A-10 is the genetic equivalent of a hyperhog, at the end of a bloodline started by his Fifth Air Force A-20s, B-25s, and P-38s.

From what I understand, that doctrine was mothballed when the Army lost the AAC. The Pentagon then took a tactical man, shoved him into SAC, and it was there he hit a wall. Kenney was definitely not a friend of the military-industrial complex, and made none among the nuke haulers, zoomies, or missile boys.

The EA-6B Prowler has been officailly retired from all services. - The end of an era.

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