The Corporate State - what it really means

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Black Man Underwear

Nine Inch ИIggers
kiwifarms.net
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4 de Jul, 2022
Wikipedia dijo:
Corporatism is an ideology and political system of interest representation and policymaking whereby corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, come together and negotiate contracts or policy (collective bargaining) on the basis of their common interests. The term is derived from the Latin corpus, or "body".
Wikipedia dijo:
Corporatism does not refer to a political system dominated by large business interests, even though the latter are commonly referred to as "corporations" in modern American vernacular and legal parlance. Instead, the correct term for that theoretical system would be corporatocracy. The terms "corporatocracy" and "corporatism" are often confused due to their similar names and to the use of corporations as organs of the state.
Ideological Corporate Statism has been enacted in ancient, medieval, premodern and modern times, both pre and post World War 2. Virtually every time it has seen dramatic increases in quality of life and GDP relative to technology of the era.

Notable examples include:
  • Ancient Rome and Greece (at various periods)
  • Medieval Germany, England, France, Russia, and Italy
  • Napoleonic France
  • Regency of Carano (Fiume)
  • Austria under Dollfuss
  • Portugal under Salazar
  • Peronist Argentia, Brazil under Vargas
  • Nazi Germany
  • Fascist Italy
  • Vichy France
  • Francoist Spain
  • South Korea under Park Chung Hee
  • Early postwar Japan
The premise is simple: government must consult with organized groups of workers and employers in each profession before making policy decisions that affect them.

For example: if the President wants to lower tariffs on coal, the Coal Guild (which represents the workers and their employers separately but equally) must be consulted. If they consent, it goes ahead. If the employers really want it to happen but the workers express they may lose salaries, debates must be heard until they come to a consensus.

Depending on implementation, the Guilds may or may not have direct legislative authority, but they remain a viable way to petition the state as a member of the workforce.

In Fascist contexts, corporatism dissolves the separation between private and public. The nation is one "body", one "corpus". As all private businesses engage in private commerce for both private and public benefit, all private concerns are also public and vise versa. In this way oligopoly pricefixing or false advertising are elevated from something liable for lawsuits to crimes against the state, as they undermine the state's economic output and image.

Private property is unaffected. Wealth redistribution does not happen in large amounts except against private central banking (i.e. Federal Reserve), and employers are treated on equal footing to their workers.

If we define a "total capitalist" system as being an unchecked, unregulated private sector, and "total communism" being the same for the public sector, corporatism would be characterized as simultaneously anticapitalist and anticommunist in equal measure. The goal is class cooperation, not class conflict.
 
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I... don't know what you wanted to achieve by posting this. From what I see, this is an incoherent blend of sometimes factual sometimes counterfactual historical trivia and soft praise for fascist economic structures.

Like, take the equivocation on "corporatism"; you first insist on the scholarly definition on corporatism as interest group representation, but then conflate it with state-managed economies under authoritarian regimes such as Nazi Germany. And take the fascist apologetics you have in there. Like, are we to judge the economic model separately from the coercive apparatus reinforcing it? Then there's another false equivalence regarding guilds; your point ignores the fact that such guilds under fascist corporatism were state-controlled and operated under threat of punishment. Accordingly, there was no genuine bargaining and no market freedom.
And "class cooperation" is just ideological bait. Workers are forbidden from striking, independent unions are abolished, and all disputes are subordinated to the state's priorities. Call this imposed "cooperation" what it really is, "coerced compliance".
Private property is unaffected.
This here, I haven't made up my mind if you were trying to be hilarious or insult my intelligence. The notion of private property being unaffected is completely absurd. Control of property is subordinated to the state. That is not private property in any meaningful sense. Ownership is defined by control, and not mere legal fiction.
simultaneously anticapitalist and anticommunist in equal measure
What you're actually avoiding is liberty. The state still commands production goals, censors dissent, and crushes economic freedom. Accordingly it's just communist with a different aesthetic.
 
I... don't know what you wanted to achieve by posting this. From what I see, this is an incoherent blend of sometimes factual sometimes counterfactual historical trivia and soft praise for fascist economic structures.

Like, take the equivocation on "corporatism"; you first insist on the scholarly definition on corporatism as interest group representation, but then conflate it with state-managed economies under authoritarian regimes such as Nazi Germany.
Fascist corporatism is the most important variant of it in the modern era. It continues to influence American, Chinese, European, South Korean, and Japanese economics. Just because fascists did it using state intervention doesn't make it somehow not corporatism.

And take the fascist apologetics you have in there. Like, are we to judge the economic model separately from the coercive apparatus reinforcing it? Then there's another false equivalence regarding guilds; your point ignores the fact that such guilds under fascist corporatism were state-controlled and operated under threat of punishment. Accordingly, there was no genuine bargaining and no market freedom.

And "class cooperation" is just ideological bait. Workers are forbidden from striking, independent unions are abolished, and all disputes are subordinated to the state's priorities. Call this imposed "cooperation" what it really is, "coerced compliance".
Independent unions are not a requirement for genuine bargaining. Under state control the state must act as a mediator between workers and employers in a union. Someone has to come out on top in any argument.

Strikes are not legal in every country, not even in every capitalist country. It's not something to take for granted. Yes disputes are subordinated to the state's priorities, that's part of the point.

This here, I haven't made up my mind if you were trying to be hilarious or insult my intelligence. The notion of private property being unaffected is completely absurd. Control of property is subordinated to the state. That is not private property in any meaningful sense. Ownership is defined by control, and not mere legal fiction.

What you're actually avoiding is liberty. The state still commands production goals, censors dissent, and crushes economic freedom. Accordingly it's just communist with a different aesthetic.
Marxist economic theory requires abolition of private property. In Nazi Germany the average person was fully capable within the bounds of the law, formally and otherwise, of purchasing a home, starting a business, and buying and selling goods and services. State involvement in the affairs of why and how they did this is not communism, just as the FDA inspecting a factory is not communism. That's just not what communism is.

What I assume you're referring to by "production goals" was the war economy. Early Nazi economic policy was dictated by the need for immediate production in violation of the Versailles Treaty. This would produce a fusion of public and private-sector interests when Germany officially began rearmament. An actual state-controlled war economy only initiated in 1943 as Germany had bit off more than it could chew. This never amounted to mass nationalization of businesses. Reducing Nazi economic policy effectively to a mischaracterized arms industry between 1942 and 1945 is a misrepresentation.

Referencing Italy, mass nationalization of state industries simply did not occur. Mussolini's famous claim that "three-fourths of Italian economy, industrial and agricultural, is in the hands of the State" quote is misunderstood. Almost all of Fascist Italy's industry was outside the state's control, but not outside its influence, which was felt through the IRI's public financing and accounting schemes. It's not as if these companies were directly managed by an installed blackshirt CEO, or forced at gunpoint to make X amount of Y by Z. This literally did not happen.

On economic freedoms, mass privatizations were enacted after Hitler took office. What were then state industries like many banks, railroads, even some welfare offices were privatized. On production goals, companies which could not or would not fill orders were never punished, and often refused orders outright. State officials often attempted to use monetary incentives, but of course they didn't always work. You were never required to fill an order.

Calling the Third Reich "communist" is equivalent to leftists calling fascism "capitalism in decay". It's the reverse of the same argument. Fundamentally Nazi Germany, and fascist economies generally, were not communist.
 
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What you are seeking was already accomplished.

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You repeatedly pretend that nominal ownership is actual control. A regime where the state dictates what business activities are permissible, what quotas production needs to fulfill, what conditions labor ought to be at, and which bans disobedience is not respecting private property at all. It's regulating private property out of existence.
Independent unions are not a requirement for genuine bargaining.
That's only true if bargaining is voluntary. In corporatist regimes, "bargaining" is a ritual within state constraints, enforced by criminal penalties. That's not negotiation, that's managed compliance, and you yourself prove this point by conceding "the state must act as a mediator" and "disputes are subordinated to the state's priorities". The state is a participant with monopoly power, not an umpire.
Marxist economic theory requires abolition of private property.
And fascist theory requires absorption. The result is nearly identical. De facto control without formal expropriation. The legal owner retains liability and formal rights, but is subordinate to central directives. That's nationalized risk and socialized direction.
mass privatizations were enacted after Hitler took office
Selling state assets does not establish a free economy when there's still a command apparatus that directs all enterprise towards militarized state goals, under threat of punishment, and with market exit being outlawed.
You were never required to fill an order.
Business were compelled through cartelization, resource allocation control, licensing, and coercive compliance with rearmament goals. Refusal was not a long-term option without reprisal. Any notion of free pricing or competitive allocation was nullified. There is no such thing as liberty under command conditions.
fascist economies generally, were not communist.
In function, they absolutely were. Central planning. Forbidden dissent. Coercive allocation. Politicized production. Abolition of free labor markets.



Quoting Wikipedia at the start of your post is like starting a best man's speech with "Webster's dictionary defines marriage as..."
Nah, agreeing on definitions for high-level concepts is not just A-OK, but commendable in the context of a serious discussion. Unless one then proceeds to not hold oneself to that.
 
It we are talking about Mussolini corporatism aka his effort to revive the medieval guild style of business then it cannot be overstated how bad of an idea this was.

The guilds of old were functionally a state issued private cartel that had total control over their respective niches, there was no free market or competition with them. It was an uncontested monopoly. Like all monopolies the end result is high prices for subpar products with minimal to zero innovation. There was a historical analysis analyzing industrialization in regions of germany which had either kept or eliminated their guilds. The end result was the areas that kept their guilds didn't industrialize. Businesses that have total control of their niche see no reason to take a risk by innovating, with none to challenge them they see no reason to break their comfortable status quo. State mandated monopolies compound these problems far more however natural monopolies are still toxic to the consumer and market. (For a source I can't find it fucking Google, I feel like @XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG might honestly know more)

The majority of Italian weaponry and vehicles in WW2 were utter trash which was generally much more expensive compared to the equipment used by the other powers, with the power granted to the corporate monopoly they had a habit of threatening labour shutdowns when they didn't get their way. Mussolini revived the guilds just for them to behave exactly like the guilds.

Also the idea of trusting either the corporate big whig's or the state to be at all trustworthy with the power over labour unions is utterly retarded.
 
Private property is unaffected. Wealth redistribution does not happen in large amounts except against private central banking (i.e. Federal Reserve), and employers are treated on equal footing to their workers.
Maybe that’s the pitch, but if you have extensive rules about how people can use their property, it’s not really their property anymore. Corporatist societies run command economies. Command economies that don’t pretend (like Communist societies) to value equality, but still command economies.
 
The guilds of old were functionally a state issued private cartel that had total control over their respective niches, there was no free market or competition with them. It was an uncontested monopoly. Like all monopolies the end result is high prices for subpar products with minimal to zero innovation. There was a historical analysis analyzing industrialization in regions of germany which had either kept or eliminated their guilds. The end result was the areas that kept their guilds didn't industrialize. Businesses that have total control of their niche see no reason to take a risk by innovating, with none to challenge them they see no reason to break their comfortable status quo. State mandated monopolies compound these problems far more however natural monopolies are still toxic to the consumer and market. (For a source I can't find it fucking Google, I feel like @XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG might honestly know more)
Mostly correct. Medieval guilds were protectionist monopolies that throttled innovation, fixed prices, and stifled entry. And this was reproduced by fascist corporatism with mandated monopolies, formalized cartels, and state-brokered "harmony" that killed market signals and suppressed dissent. Regarding Germany, you're probably referring to the industrial divergence in the 19th century between the guild-heavy South and the more free Northern zones like Prussia.
I take issues with the last sentence though. "Natural monopoly" is a contradiction in terms. Any meaningful definition of monopoly requires a coercive exclusion of competitors, and that is something only the state can enforce. Without legal barriers, market dominance is not a monopoly, it is just a success. If entry remains free, then no firm can extract rent without inviting competition. Calling such a dominance "toxic" mistakes voluntary exchange for structural oppression and lays the groundwork for calls to illegitimate intervention. What's toxic about monopolies isn't the scale, it's the coercion. Remove that and you don't have any monopoly in any meaningful sense. Like, you can claim that I have a natural monopoly on posts submitted by me, but that's super meaningless.
 
You repeatedly pretend that nominal ownership is actual control. A regime where the state dictates what business activities are permissible, what quotas production needs to fulfill, what conditions labor ought to be at, and which bans disobedience is not respecting private property at all. It's regulating private property out of existence.
All governments already regulate what business activities are permissible.
Fascist governments did not regulate production quotas.
Refusing orders was normal in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

The only accurate thing you've stated is the labor unions were nationalized. Yes, that's accurate.

That's only true if bargaining is voluntary. In corporatist regimes, "bargaining" is a ritual within state constraints, enforced by criminal penalties. That's not negotiation, that's managed compliance, and you yourself prove this point by conceding "the state must act as a mediator" and "disputes are subordinated to the state's priorities". The state is a participant with monopoly power, not an umpire.
You've also missed the context of the time. Trade unions as a concept were necessary, but many of those in the early 20th century were not just for collective bargaining. Consistent with Marxist proletarian language, they were militant organizations deeply embedded in Marxist political organizations.

Many Marxist parties even had their own special trade unions to directly act in the world of collective bargaining as an extended political force. In many countries this continues to this day. How could a regime aiming to enact significant policies against Marxist ideology operate if those same Marxists were causing strikes and riots every day?

All of this was something Mussolini actually dealt with when he came to power in 1922, and even then he took a full 4 years to ban them.

And fascist theory requires absorption. The result is nearly identical. De facto control without formal expropriation. The legal owner retains liability and formal rights, but is subordinate to central directives. That's nationalized risk and socialized direction.
This only works if the state is willing to employ violence to control them. But that was almost never actually done.

Virtually all discussion on this subject by historians asks "why were the Nazis so powerful if they generally didn't use state coercion" because it was physically absent:
Investment decisions in industry were influenced by state regulation, but the initiative generally remained with the enterprises. There was no
central planning of the level or the composition of investment, neither under the Four Year Plan nor during the war.
Even with respect to its own war and autarky-related investment projects, the state normally did not use power in order to secure the unconditional support of industry. Rather, freedom of contract was respected. However, the state tried to induce firms to act according to its aims by offering them a number of contract options to choose from.
Source
"Please make X of Y by Z and I'll make sure you get H" as opposed to "make X of Y by Z or you get shot".

Selling state assets does not establish a free economy when there's still a command apparatus that directs all enterprise towards militarized state goals, under threat of punishment, and with market exit being outlawed.
Business were compelled through cartelization, resource allocation control, licensing, and coercive compliance with rearmament goals. Refusal was not a long-term option without reprisal. Any notion of free pricing or competitive allocation was nullified. There is no such thing as liberty under command conditions.
Once again you are limiting all fascist economic policy to Nazi Germany between 1943 and 1945. Germany was not a full war economy until mid 1943. Albert Speer wasn't even minister of armaments until 1942.

Business were compelled through cartelization, resource allocation control, licensing, and coercive compliance with rearmament goals. Refusal was not a long-term option without reprisal. Any notion of free pricing or competitive allocation was nullified. There is no such thing as liberty under command conditions.
The cartels were formed by the Weimar Government in 1923. They were unregulated before 1933. "Cartelization" occurred a decade before Hitler was in power, and while strengthened under his regime, the concept was not created nor were they nationalized. At this point it was already part of the German economic model.

Yes government coercion occurred. Absolutely. In limited numbers. In 1943-45. Primarily on the Eastern Front.
Yes at the time armaments was the majority of the economy, but reducing all fascist economics to armaments in this one two year period is insane.
In function, they absolutely were. Central planning. Forbidden dissent. Coercive allocation. Politicized production. Abolition of free labor markets.
It rather has to be stated that companies normally could refuse to engage in an investment project designed by the state-without any consequences. Be-
sides those already mentioned there can be cited quite a few additional instances where they did so, even after the implementation of the Four Year Plan and after the beginning of war, both being sometimes considered as watersheds in the economic policy of the regime. In fact, the rhetoric may have become more aggressive after 1936. But the actual behavior of the Nazi state in relations with private enterprises appears to have not changed, because firms continued to act without indication of fear that they could be nationalized or otherwise put under unbearable pressure.
Source

In Soviet Russia, if you refused an order you would be shot, end of story. This did not occur in Nazi Germany.
 
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