Sword and Sorcery thread

[Strawb3rry]

This is a thread for discussing Sword and Sorcery aka Low Fantasy. For the uninitiated, Sword and Sorcery is a fantasy genre that emphasizes grittier, more morally ambiguous conflicts and also typically incorporates horror and post-apocalyptic elements into the setting. Think less Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time and more Conan the Barbarian or Dying Earth.

I will start this thread by posting some of my favorite Sword and Sorcery books and authors.

1) The Works of Robert E. Howard

I'm sure Robert E. Howard needs no introduction. He wrote Conan the Barbarian, Solomon Kane, Kull the Conqueror, Red Sonya, as well as many other fantasy, sci-fi, horror, and historical fiction short stories. R.E.H. is the gold standard for Sword and Sorcery so his books are a great place to start for anyone interested in the genre. My favorite Conan stories are probably Beyond the Black River, Rogues in the House, Queen of the Black Coast, and Iron Shadows in the Moon.

2) Kane, by Karl Wagner

 After R.E.H., I'd say Karl Wagner is my favorite Sword and Sorcery writer. Wagner actually wrote a licensed Conan the Barbarian book called Conan: The Road of Kings. It's pretty good, but not as good as Howard's original Conan books. In my opinion Wagner's best work is his Kane series. The protagonist is Kane, aka Cain from the Bible. God cursed him to wander the Earth for all eternity so he goes around causing trouble and going on adventures. Unlike Conan, Kane is a villain protagonist with almost no redeeming characteristics, but he is still likable enough that you never grow to hate him. There are only three Kane books and in my opinion the first one, Bloodstone, is the best. The climax is very memorable and features a great plot twist at the end.

3) Cugel the Clever, by Jack Vance

Cugel the Clever is a duology by Jack Vance and is part of his Dying Earth series. It is much more lighthearted than the Conan or Kane books, but still incorporates many of the classic Sword and Sorcery tropes I like. The protagonist is a sleazy trickster who gets enslaved by an evil wizard and forced to go on a quest for him in exchange for his life and freedom. Naturally he goes about this by lying, cheating, and stealing at every opportunity. The books are very funny, and definitely worth reading if you have any interest in heroes who survive using their wits.

4) Book of the New Sun, by Gene Wolfe

BotNS is a sci-fi/fantasy series by Gene Wolfe about the life of an executioner who has been exiled from his home and is forced to wander post-apocalyptic South America. They are very good books, however they were intentionally written to be confusing, and are not easy books to read by any means. The protagonist, Severian, is a first-person narrator and his account of the events of the book is warped by his naivete and ignorance of the world around him. There are also instances where he outright lies to the audience, only to accidentally contradict his lies later in the book. If you don't mind a challenge, it is definitely a series worth reading. BotNS had a series of sequel novels set in the same universe but with a different protagonist. They aren't bad, but Wolfe switched from a first-person narrator to a third-person narrator, which eliminated a lot of the nuance I liked in the original four books.

5) Black Company, by Glenn Cook

 Black Company is a series about a group of low-level soldiers working for an evil sorceress as she fights both rebels trying to overthrow her and traitors within her own inner circle. Later books have the protagonists traveling from fantasy Europe to fantasy Africa and fantasy Asia to fight Thugees. A lot of people seem to dislike how the series ends but I liked it, so make of that what you will. Glenn Cook was a Vietnam veteran and it is greatly reflected in these novels. They are pretty good books, and very funny at times.

6) The Drenai Saga, by David Gemmell

The Drenai Saga is a collection of eleven novels by David Gemmell. In my opinion, however, you only really need to read the first two. After that the series starts to get a bit repetitive in its themes and style, although they are never bad. One interesting thing is that the hero of the second book is the grandson of both the hero of the first book and the villain of the first book, as their children got married and had a kid together. Another interesting thing is that in the first book the nation of Drenai are the good guys, fighting the evil barbarian tribes of Nadir, but in the sequel the Nadir are now the good guys, fighting the evil fascist government of Drenai. If you like heroic fantasy give the first two books a try and maybe read the later books if you really like them.

Honorable Mentions

Here are some books I felt were worth mentioning but not worth doing a full writeup on. Some of these might not actually be considered Sword and Sorcery but I'm going to mention them anyway.

Elric- The Elric series is extremely popular, but I never really liked it. I'm just not a fan of Michael Moorcock's writing style. I didn't particularly care for Corum either.

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser- Even though these books are very popular I never particularly cared for them. They aren't bad, they just never really drew me in either.

Jon Shannow- Another David Gemmell series. It's pretty good, although not as good as his Drenai series. The third book introduces time travel but surprisingly it doesn't ruin the series like you'd expect. The way the protagonist defeats the main villain in the final book is pretty memorable.

Hadon of Ancient Opar- Part of Philip José Farmer's Wold Newton universe, and also a very loose prequel to the Tarzan books. It's about a jungle warrior in prehistoric Africa. Its spinoff, Song of Kwasin, is excellent and better than the book it is a spinoff of.

Dread Empire- Another fantasy series by Glenn Cook. Like his more popular Black Company series it is about mercenaries going on adventures with plenty of political intrigue and betrayal. It isn't as good as Black Company, but still worth reading in my opinion.

The Second Apocalypse- A bit pretentious, but I liked it. Hopefully R. Scott Bakker recovers from his mental breakdown and finishes the series.

The First Law- Decent series. Not good, but not bad either. Bayaz is a pretty interesting character.

Malazan Book of the Fallen- I strongly disliked this series. The characters are cardboard-thin, even by the standards of genre fiction, and once you get past the fictional names of all of the races you realize that the setting is actually very generic.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Honorable Mentions

Yeah, before I forget, here's a few more sword and sorcery/etc. adjacent things.
(Does Glen Cook and etc. count? That feels more grimdark military. fantasy. You seem to mix sword and sorcery with grimdark military fantasy and dying earth stuff.)

• Jirel of Joiry- C.L. Moore was the first female sword and sorcery author, this is the first female sword and sorcery protagonist. Very interesting Weird Tales magazine stuff. Worth a read. Widely available.
• Elak of Atlantis- Henry Kuttner's sword and sorcery protag. Kuttner's a "neglected master" of SF/F. Shouldn't be that hard to get.
• Hok- Manly Wade Wellman's sword and. . . sorcery hero, I think. A bit trickier to find, but Wellman's a fun writer.
• Howard Andrew Jones' work. He just recently passed away due to brain cancer. But he was the sorta leading voice for 21st century sword and sorcery fiction and kept pushing the fandom and indie writing scene. Started off some time in the 2000s with Pathfinder and went on to write the Hanuvar series and some Arabian Nights-inspired stuff. From what I hear, he was deeply passionate about adventure fiction and led a revival of Harold Lamb's quasi-forgotten historical swashbuckling pulp fiction to get put in print by The University of Nebraska's Press.
• Leigh Brackett's Sword and Planet stories- The Stark stories are sword and planet. She was good at these. She's also an earlier pulp writer that started in the '30s and wrote these until the '70s.
• John Carter of Mars, by ERB- The original sword and planet stories, still holds up well after a century or so.
• Harold Lambs' "Swords" and "Steppes" series- Lamb was a big historical fiction pulp writer from the '10s-30s or so. He also inspired Robert E. Howard.
• Michael Shea's Nifft- Don't know much, but he's considered a S&S protag. Also the books are a little rare.
• Andrew J. Offutt's work- 60s-80s era writer that got his fantasy work in the mass market pb era, lots of sword and sorcery and an appendix N mention. Solid writer.
• L. Sprague de Camp- Look, he got Conan revived. However, he's a splendidly enjoyable writer in his own right. Plenty of his own Sword and Planet and Sword & Sorcery work in addition to his Conan stuff.
• Lin Carter- Aided de Camp in reviving Conan. He also did his own S&S work. The Thongor books are decent comfort food and still in print.
• Andre Norton's Witch World- Kinda sorta falls under this? She was a member of that sword and sorcery writer's club that was started in the '50s.
• Poul Anderson's Broken Sword, Viking Tales, Ys series- Anderson also did a Conan story. He's a very consistent writer and a very enjoyable one. Go find him.

There's likely plenty of others in the indie scene or smaller press. DMR Books does some work I hear people like.


Sword and Sorcery has a lot of related genre-cousins, like sword and planet, sword and sandal, sword and silk, swashbuckling, etc. You could even look at Wuxia to an extent as a cousin to it.

 

[Bristly Bill]

I feel ashamed to admit that of everything you've posted the only thing I've read is the first law books, which in my opinion suffers a lot from lack of explanation. The world is fairly interesting, but he treats it as set dressing and doesn't really explain it much.
Many of the other series you mentioned have been on my read list for years, thank you for reinforcing my need to read.

 

[Strawb3rry]

Thanks for the recs, Alexander, I haven't heard of several of these authors.

(Does Glen Cook and etc. count? That feels more grimdark military. fantasy. You seem to mix sword and sorcery with grimdark military fantasy and dying earth stuff.)

It's pretty nebulous where one subgenre begins and another ends but even a lot of R.E.H.'s Conan books had him leading an army (Black Colossus, for example), so I felt if those counted as Sword and Sorcery then Black Company should count too. I definitely feel the Dying Earth books are Sword and Sorcery since they are all about heroes attempting to achieve personal motivations. I don't recall a single Dying Earth story where the fate of the world is on the line, for example, which seems like a defining trait of Sword and Sorcery.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Thanks for the recs, Alexander, I haven't heard of several of these authors.


It's pretty nebulous where one subgenre begins and another ends but even a lot of R.E.H.'s Conan books had him leading an army (Black Colossus, for example), so I felt if those counted as Sword and Sorcery then Black Company should count too. I definitely feel the Dying Earth books are Sword and Sorcery since they are all about heroes attempting to achieve personal motivations. I don't recall a single Dying Earth story where the fate of the world is on the line, for example, which seems like a defining trait of Sword and Sorcery.

I'm not going to go into semantics. But Conan's stuff does take place over his entire lifetime and The Black Company isn't too focused on an individual in the same way, although I'll grant you that the level of magic in the world is definitely higher.

And, can't forget about the oddball stuff like Harry Harrison's alt-history viking stories that probably count very adjacently to these genres.

or Roger Zelazny's Dilvish and Amber stories! Or his Lord of Light novel that's very sword and planet.

or Fred Saberhagen's Swords/EMpire of the East stuff that's also very S&P.

Lots of solidly enjoyable and accessible authors. The only really hard to find S&S authors are Michael Shea and Karl Edward Wagner due to their work being out of print for so long and just not getting revived in large enough runs. Even the tiny old paperbacks go for hundreds of bucks. At least the Kane books are on the kindle shop. Everything else listed is fairly accessible via second-hand or via kindle/print on demand.


You know what's funny. Tolkein had a few Robert E. Howard Conan books in his library and it's made people speculate that he enjoyed Howard's work and was influenced by Howard's worldbuilding.

So, in a way, Howard & friends influenced Tolkein.

 

[Merton J. Dingle]

Maybe this is a goofy question, but where did the Sword & Sorcery writers get their ideas? It feels like that of all the forms of genre fiction that we're familiar with today, the precise origins of fantasy tend to be more obscure to the average person, whereas with science fiction, horror, or mystery/crime, the origins seem to be more well known. I know that the Inklings were heavily inspired by William Morris (particularly The Well at World's End) and George MacDonald (particularly Phantastes), but S&S seems to largely predate the work of the Inklings, with Conan appearing five years before the publication of The Hobbit. It feels like it's a completely different strand of fantasy than what came later.

 

[Strawb3rry]

Maybe this is a goofy question, but where did the Sword & Sorcery writers get their ideas?

Robert E. Howard was a history nerd, so that obviously had an influence, but another major inspiration for him was the Texas oil industry of all things. R.E.H. was born in a community that used to be wealthy from oil, but lost its wealth when the oil dried up. Seeing his local community decay inspired him to write about the decline of societies as a whole.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styles_and_themes_of_Robert_E._Howard

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Maybe this is a goofy question, but where did the Sword & Sorcery writers get their ideas? It feels like that of all the forms of genre fiction that we're familiar with today, the precise origins of fantasy tend to be more obscure to the average person, whereas with science fiction, horror, or mystery/crime, the origins seem to be more well known. I know that the Inklings were heavily inspired by William Morris (particularly The Well at World's End) and George MacDonald (particularly Phantastes), but S&S seems to largely predate the work of the Inklings, with Conan appearing five years before the publication of The Hobbit. It feels like it's a completely different strand of fantasy than what came later.

it's an interesting question but a lot of them got the ideas from historical pulp stuff (Alexander Dumas, the OG Swashbuckler writer). Harold Lamb, Edgar Rice Burroughs all did this setup. Robert E. Howard was a big history nerd and loved adventure fiction and pulps. That's what got shit started. Then we just say more and more.

I'd argue that sword and sorcery's rooted in a mix of historical adventure/swashbuckling pulps and adventurous fantasy/myth/legends. Obviously more "low fantasy", but hey.

 

[Purple fur Pomeranian]

Anyone who's still playing Conan Exiles, well now they have a bluesky account.

 

[The Mighty Banth]

John Carter of Mars, by ERB- The original sword and planet stories, still holds up well after a century or so.

Can't give enough hearts for this one. On one hand it's a shame that such an influential series (said to have inspired the original version of Superman and the name Jedi) but considering the horrors that have befallen other media it's for the best at present.

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

Can't give enough hearts for this one. On one hand it's a shame that such an influential series (said to have inspired the original version of Superman and the name Jedi) but considering the horrors that have befallen other media it's for the best at present.

eh, they're still fine. They get reprinted all the time, lots of special editions, and Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc. still has print on demand copies for all the Tarzan/John Carter stuff. John Carter and Dejah Thoris still appear semi-regularly in comics and whatnot.

Don't worry too much. The film was alright. ERB is fun, but don't read a ton of the books at once.

 

[Safir]

Maybe this is a goofy question, but where did the Sword & Sorcery writers get their ideas?

The literary lineage is Walter Scott -> RL Stevenson -> H Rider Haggard -> everyone else.
The ideas are/were everywhere:
- IRL colonial adventures, esp. the Conquistadors (the IRL sword and sorcery protagonists)
- contemporary travelogues, contemporary fake travelogues, rediscovered medieval myths/fakes
- archaeology
- the Bible
- Classical myths
- Eastern mysticism
- "gothic" literature
- quackery, newage, pseudoscience

 

[The Mighty Banth]

eh, they're still fine. They get reprinted all the time, lots of special editions, and Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc. still has print on demand copies for all the Tarzan/John Carter stuff. John Carter and Dejah Thoris still appear semi-regularly in comics and whatnot.

Don't worry too much. The film was alright. ERB is fun, but don't read a ton of the books at once.

Being a beloved, niche book seems safer at the present time. Maybe someday we all finally get a decent movie. It almost beat Snow White as the first full length animated film. You can still watch the test footage.
Ah, what might have been.

 

[Sexy Senior Citizen]

This is a thread for discussing Sword and Sorcery aka Low Fantasy. For the uninitiated, Sword and Sorcery is a fantasy genre that emphasizes grittier, more morally ambiguous conflicts and also typically incorporates horror and post-apocalyptic elements into the setting. Think less Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time and more Conan the Barbarian or Dying Earth.

The recent Dungeon Master's Guide had one of the best and most evocative descriptions of Sword and Sorcery: "The grim, hulking fighter disembowels the high priest of the serpent god on his own altar. A laughing rogue spends ill-gotten gains on cheap wine in filthy taverns. Hardy adventurers venture into the jungle in search of the fabled city of golden masks."

Sword and Sorcery has a series of tropes that most people can recognize at a glance, even if they can't put a name to it. These are the ones I can recall off the top of my head:

• Civilization is inherently corrupt. Barbarians may have a rough code of honor, but cities are cesspits of crime, decadence, and human misery.
• Magic is evil. There is no light magic; magic isn't even neutral. Use of magic either actively corrupts the user, or it requires a horrible cost to use. Almost all who use magic are evil to a degree, and sorcerers are common villains.
• Monsters are rare, but terrifying and clearly unnatural. Overcoming a monster may be the focus of an entire story. Many villains are simply human.
• The gods, if there are any, are usually demonic monsters who demand human sacrifice. You can't go wrong with the classic trope of rescuing a virgin from the sacrificial altar.
• Heroes are honorable, but frequently amoral. They have no compunctions against theft, murder, and similar crimes, but they differ from villains in their general respect for humanity and their unwillingness to sacrifice it for power.
• Over-the-top pulp action is the name of the game in Sword and Sorcery. A barbarian can't just fight one guard- no, he needs to effortlessly hack his way through dozens of them at once. The pirate queen needs to face the sea monster in a stormy sea as her ship falls apart around her. The stakes need to be high, and the heroes need to be up to the challenge.

Now, with that out of the way, here are my contributions:

The Gor series by John Norman: a sword and planet series that could've been written by Elliot Rodger (or Russell Greer), series follows the adventures of a Tarl Cabot, an author self-insert who is magically transported to Gor, a hidden planet that's on the opposite side of the sun. Gor is ruled by insectoid monsters who kidnap humans and force them to remain technologically bound to the Iron Age. They also breed men to be superhuman Spartan soldiers and the women to be sex slaves. It is a clear knockoff of the John Carter of Mars series, and is John Norman's personal magical realm for reasons you can read about here. Two bad films were made based on the series (the second of which was mocked by MST3K), so make of that while you will.

Dark Sun: While Dungeons and Dragons had roots in the S&S genre, Dark Sun is where these roots flowered into one of the more popular settings for the game. The world of Athas was ruined by a magical genocide long ago; the world is almost entirely a desert. The one portion that isn't a desert is the Tyr region, a Mesopotamia knockoff where the major settlements are ruled by almighty sorcerer-kings, where a drop of water is worth more than a human life, and where the monsters and bandits of the wilderness are preferable to the horrific conditions of the city-states. Dark Sun is notable for both the prevalence of psionics and the corrupting nature of magic: careless use of magic can corrupt the land (referred to as "defiling") and magic users are heavily persecuted- unless they have the protection of a sorcerer-king.

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

Now, with that out of the way, here are my contributions:

I recall reading somewhere that Gor became a big hit with women and that's how we wound up with it getting insanely horny.

Legit surprised Dark Sun hasn't gotten a re-release or update. Even a spiritual successor.

 

[Sexy Senior Citizen]

Legit surprised Dark Sun hasn't gotten a re-release or update. Even a spiritual successor.

Wizards of the Coast is run by uber-woke retards who don't like that slavery features prominently in Dark Sun. The last update the setting ever got was in 4e, which as I recall was received surprisingly well.

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

Wizards of the Coast is run by uber-woke retards who don't like that slavery features prominently in Dark Sun. The last update the setting ever got was in 4e, which as I recall was received surprisingly well.

that reminds me, I've heard there's some odd sorta indie outfit that's got the license to Vance's Dying Earth, Saberhagen's Empire of the East, and a few other settings. Wonder if they're better. Goodman Games or sth?

Speaking of Saberhagen, Norton, and Zelazny. Are they considered sword and sorcery? Or just sort of "adjacent".

 

[Head Muggle]

Excellent, a thread to my favorite fantasy genre.

Do you guys have a favorite modern day S&S collection?

Last year I read The Eye of Sounnu which might be my pick for a recent release. Two of the stories are misses to me but the quality of the other stories make up for it. They're not bronze-age exclusively and get fairly weird with a stone age warrior getting turned into a lizard or with space adventurers trying to get treasure from a distant planet.

My favorite is about a legendary warrior being summoned by court magicians to deal with a tyrant who just conquered a city.

On a different note: I ended up connecting S&S with Amazon's shitty POD quality. Modern day pulp.

 

[Squanto Airi]

Thank you for this thread.

Unfortunately have only read a few of Robert E Howard's stories, but have been wanting to get into the subgenre since Eternal Champion, Visigoth, and a slew of other USPM/Trad metal bands I like regularly take from Sword and Sorcery.

Is there a decent place to get pdfs of the recommendations?

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

Thank you for this thread.

Unfortunately have only read a few of Robert E Howard's stories, but have been wanting to get into the subgenre since Eternal Champion, Visigoth, and a slew of other USPM/Trad metal bands I like regularly take from Sword and Sorcery.

Is there a decent place to get pdfs of the recommendations?

project gutenberg, internet archive, and amazon.

also Steeger Books.

as for the stuff that's still in copyright. you know where to get that, right?