Disaster Study: US is losing military advantage - Hope you can speak Chinese!

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US military advantage has eroded, study says
WASHINGTON - The United States has lost its military edge to a dangerous degree and could potentially lose a war against China or Russia, according to a report released Wednesday by a bipartisan commission that Congress created to evaluate the Trump administration's defense strategy.

The National Defense Strategy Commission, comprised of former top Republican and Democratic officials selected by Congress, evaluated the Trump administration's 2018 National Defense Strategy, which ordered a vast reshaping of the U.S. military to compete with Beijing and Moscow in an era of renewed great-power competition.
While endorsing the strategy's aims, the commission warned that Washington isn't moving fast enough or investing sufficiently to put the vision into practice, risking a further erosion of American military dominance that could become a national security emergency.
At the same time, according to the commission, China and Russia are seeking dominance in their regions and the ability to project military power globally, as their authoritarian governments pursue defense buildups aimed squarely at the United States.
"There is a strong fear of complacency, that people have become so used to the United States achieving what it wants in the world, to include militarily, that it isn't heeding the warning signs," said Kathleen Hicks, a former top Pentagon official during the Obama administration and one of the commissioners. "It's the flashing red that we are trying to relay."
The picture of the national security landscape that the 12-person commission sketched is a bleak one, in which an American military that has enjoyed undisputed dominance for decades is failing to receive the resources, innovation and prioritization its leaders need to outmuscle China and Russia in a race for military might reminiscent of the Cold War.
The military balance has shifted adversely for the United States in Europe, Asia and the Middle East, undermining the confidence of American allies and increasing the likelihood of military conflict, the commission found, after reviewing classified documents, receiving Pentagon briefings and interviewing top defense officials.
"The U.S. military could suffer unacceptably high casualties and loss of major capital assets in its next conflict. It might struggle to win, or perhaps lose, a war against China or Russia," the report said. "The United States is particularly at risk of being overwhelmed should its military be forced to fight on two or more fronts simultaneously."
In its list of 32 recommendations, the commission urged the Pentagon to explain more clearly how it intends to defeat major-power rivals in competition and war. It assailed the strategy for relying at times on "questionable assumptions and weak analysis" and leaving "unanswered critical questions."
Eric Edelman, a top Pentagon official during the Bush administration, who co-chaired the commission along with retired admiral Gary Roughead, said the report wrestled with the consequences of years of ignored warnings about the erosion of American military might.
Russia and China have "learned from what we've done. They've learned from our success. And while we've been off doing a different kind of warfare, they've been prepared for a kind of warfare at the high end that we really haven't engaged in for a very long time," Edelman told Michael Morell, the former acting director of the CIA and a fellow member of the commission, during a forthcoming episode of Morell's podcast,
"Intelligence Matters."
Edelman said people had lost sight of how complicated the international security environment had become for the United States, and argued that for a lot of reasons the American public and Congress haven't been as attentive to the urgency of the situation as they should be.
The commission argued that despite a $716 billion American defense budget this year, which is four times the size of China's and more than 10 times that of Russia, the effort to reshape the U.S. defense establishment to counter current threats is under-resourced. It recommended that Congress lift budget caps on defense spending in the next two years that in the past have hobbled the military's ability to plan for the long term.


"It is beyond the scope of our work to identify the exact dollar amount required to fully fund the military's needs," the report concluded. "Yet available resources are clearly insufficient to fulfill the strategy's ambitious goals, including that of ensuring that (the Defense Department) can defeat a major-power adversary while deterring other enemies simultaneously."

The call for even more robust defense spending comes as the Democrats take over the House and seek rollbacks of key Pentagon programs. It also comes after the White House instructed the Pentagon to pare back its planned budget for the coming year by some 4.5 percent, or about $33 billion, after the federal deficit increased sharply following last year's tax cut.

White House national security adviser John Bolton recently said he expected the defense budget to remain relatively flat in the coming years, as the administration seeks to cut discretionary spending, and suggested the Pentagon would need to reshape the military with funds derived from cuts to other areas.

Money saved from planned Pentagon reforms will prove insufficient to see through the kind of investment the military needs to see through the new national defense strategy, the commission found. It also said Congress should look at the entire federal budget, including entitlement spending and tax revenue, to put the nation on more stable financial footing, rather than slash defense spending.

To counter Russia and China, the commission said the Navy should expand its submarine fleet and sealift forces; the Air Force should introduce more reconnaissance platforms and stealth long-range fighters and bombers; and the Army should pursue more armor, long-range precision missiles and air-defense and logistical forces.

In its recommendations, the report advocated seeing through the modernization of the U.S. nuclear arsenal and putting a top Pentagon official in charge of developing additional air and missile defenses.

Another area of focus for the commission was innovation.

It described current Pentagon acquisition programs as too risk-averse, and urged the Defense Department and Congress to create a new category of pilot programs aimed at "leap-ahead" technologies that could serve as breakthroughs to help retain American military dominance.

The report also resurfaced questions about the civilian-military divide that arose after retired Marine Corps general Jim Mattis took over as defense secretary, thanks to a vote in Congress that waived a requirement for military officers to be out of uniform for 10 years before serving in that role.

In his nearly two years as secretary, Mattis has relied more on current and former military officers for expertise than his recent predecessors have.

Without singling out Mattis, the commission warned that "responsibility on key strategic and policy issues has increasingly migrated to the military," and urged Congress to exercise oversight to "reverse the unhealthy trend in which decision-making is drifting increasingly toward the military on issues of national importance."

https://m.sfgate.com/news/article/US-military-advantage-has-eroded-study-says-13390309.php
 
The single (SINGLE!) drydock the Russians have that is capable of servicing their navy sank and almost took their lone aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetzov with it. The dock is in 200ft. of water, raising it is...uh, well it's going to be very difficult. When it went down it tore a 30' gash in the Kuznetzov's hull. The Kuznetzov can't be repaired without a floating dry-dock, and was in desperate need of repairs and upgrades which were slated to take from now until 2022-2024 anyway.

But it's not just that ship that is now unable to get repairs and upgrades: that was the ONLY floating drydock Russia had. They are, for anything more serious than refueling, rearming, and anything you can crane onto the ship, out of the Naval operations business.

Their bleeding edge tank and bleeding edge fighters are too expensive for their own military to build in any quantity. What they do have (in aircraft) they still cannot operate for more than a few hours each month. Remember Russia's "deep strike" on Syrian/ISIS assets? Yeah, they launched 8 cruise missiles and six crashed on the way to the target. The aforementioned aircraft carrier broke down, and they lost a brand-new fighter jet in the process before the planes all transited to land and the carrier was towed home.

The T14 Armata is a tech demonstrator, Russia's ground forces can't afford it in quantity. The 2s4 "Sprut" light tank that's supposed to replace the 50+ year old PT76? Can't afford them. The anti-infantry BMPT "Terminator" (really just a shitload of RWS' built onto the hull of a turretless T72)? Can't afford them, only 2 built.

The only people who think the Russian military - beyond a spiteful ICBM raid - is a military threat are the...what would the equivalent of youtube's "Wehraboos" (fans of the ww2 German army) but for Russians?
 
Didn't a group of Russian """mercenaries""" (lol) skirmish with a US force in the Middle East and proceed to get their shit pushed in to the tune of 300+ casualties in minutes? Yep, that happened.



They did a heat check and had over 50% of their force vaporized or filled with ghost shrapnel in minutes. Yeah, I'm sure the US is terrified of the Russians.

Are they disappointed they only got 300 insta-gibs instead of all 550? "Quick, fund the next gen of weapons so a few Russians can't limp home and explain how fucking deadly the current US arsenal is!"
Vatniks can't even take care of Kadyrov. Who the hell honestly expects them to operate outside their borders?
 
A lot of this reads exactly like something i would expect from a group of politicians, extremely vague statements about "innovation" and "national security" with very little substance.

The only attempt at explaining the finer details of what their talking about don't make a lot of sense either.

To counter Russia and China, the commission said the Navy should expand its submarine fleet and sealift forces

Neither of these proposals would help against Russia as its western flank is comprised of a vast land theater friendly to the US and a few narrow, heavily guarded waterways. It's eastern flank, along with China, is surrounded by nations friendly to the US. Even in a total unrestricted submarine warfare scenario I don't think we'll have any trouble finding ports for our vast navel logistics network, and in any case a war in that region would be mostly carried out via air assets.

the Air Force should introduce more reconnaissance platforms and stealth long-range fighters and bombers

This more than anything else leads me to question the validity of this study.

The US military as a whole (not just the Air Force) is already replacing most of its fixed wing aircraft with stealth fighters and by every indication China is way behind and Russia is at a dead standstill since their joint venture with India fell apart. As far as bombers and reconnaissance aircraft go the gap is even wider, we have enough funds to build and field aircraft like the RQ-170/180 and the B-21 in near total secrecy in addition to being the only ones who currently field any stealth bombers and we have a nearly 30 year edge in experience.

and the Army should pursue more armor, long-range precision missiles and air-defense and logistical forces.

1: We have enough armor as it is, we just need to keep up with viable ways to defend said armor against the more advanced anti-tank weapons that exist today and there's no sign we're falling behind.

2: Large missile tech is the one area where Russia and perhaps the Chinese might have an advantage, but is difficult to quantify. And I don't know why the Army is being singled out for being deficient in this regard, even if you discount the geographical position of the US and assume this is referring to overseas operations in the Middle East, European or East Asia regions this would still fall under the Air Force or Navy's umbrella.

3: Ground based air defenses of the type Russia deploys are antithetical to the doctrine of highly integrated air/ground tactics the US has and will continue to rely on, especially in light of the proliferation of stealth aircraft we're currently seeing. It's always taken a backseat in US military tech and will probably diminish even more.

4: This is the second time in this article the logistical capability of the US military has been called into question and I honestly don't know how the authors of the study came to this conclusion. Our ability to support operations in theater is unparalleled and hasn't diminished at all, I just have nothing to add.

In its recommendations, the report advocated seeing through the modernization of the U.S. nuclear arsenal and putting a top Pentagon official in charge of developing additional air and missile defenses.

There's no point in investing effort into nukes that are just as effective as they we're decades ago or into missile defenses that would be just as useless as they have been for the same period of time. Any power that has or is capable of an advanced nuclear program could easily bypass any defense by simply towing/sneaking a strategic device into a major port city in any developed nation in the world no matter how advanced the air defense is.

In a tactical sense advanced military powers do have a significant advantage, and our capability is greater than anyone else given the sheer number of delivery vehicles.
 
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our capability is greater than anyone else given the sheer number of delivery vehicles.
This is the thing many people fail to realize. One of the core principals of the US military for decades has been the ability to wage two different wars on two different sides of the globe at the same time. Vodka's aircraft carrier has to stop every other day so its sailors can chop wood for its boiler and the PLA Navy can't leave brown-water. The best was when they finally got decent nuke sub and put their best submarine corps on it and it sank killing all aboard. It literally destroyed their sub program. lol the US couldn't win in Iraq or Afghanistan! What are Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Xinjiang?

The US military has a lot of problems. I fought in a war while I was a part of it. But, you're retarded if you think the chinks or vodka goblins can beat us in a ground war.
 
But it's not just that ship that is now unable to get repairs and upgrades: that was the ONLY floating drydock Russia had. They are, for anything more serious than refueling, rearming, and anything you can crane onto the ship, out of the Naval operations business.
The Russian Navy being a 30 year running joke only effects things outside of Eur-asia. They can take a train to most conceivable conflicts. China is starting to build a blue water navy, but are nowhere near a threat now.

The T14 Armata is a tech demonstrator, Russia's ground forces can't afford it in quantity. The 2s4 "Sprut" light tank that's supposed to replace the 50+ year old PT76? Can't afford them. The anti-infantry BMPT "Terminator" (really just a shitload of RWS' built onto the hull of a turretless T72)? Can't afford them, only 2 built.

The US military can't afford to upgrade to M1A2 SEPv3 tanks. The US Army hasn't had airborne capable armor in 20 years and is borrowing LAV-25's from the Marines. The BMPT was put on hold with the expectation all T72 based armor would be replaced by T14. After the Russians figured out they can't afford to replace any T72's with T14's the BMPT has once again been greenlit. The US Army is critically short on self-propelled howitzers and rocket systems. Russia has stood up a Light Motorized Brigade that is well suited to low-intensity desert conflict.

While I'm not convinced the Russians could hold there own in a combined arms conflict against the US, I do have to admire there apparent efficiency in procurement. Maybe it's the one thing communism did right. While the USAF was trying for to kill off the A-10 for the third or fourth time, The Russian Air Force was spending money on modernizing and rebuilding Su-25 airframes.
 
The Chinese shoreline is pretty small compared to the size of the country and it'd be a serious choke point. We could just sit tight in the sea of China and sink ship after ship of chicoms.
 
The US military can't afford to upgrade to M1A2 SEPv3 tanks. The US Army hasn't had airborne capable armor in 20 years and is borrowing LAV-25's from the Marines. The BMPT was put on hold with the expectation all T72 based armor would be replaced by T14. After the Russians figured out they can't afford to replace any T72's with T14's the BMPT has once again been greenlit. The US Army is critically short on self-propelled howitzers and rocket systems. Russia has stood up a Light Motorized Brigade that is well suited to low-intensity desert conflict.

While I'm not convinced the Russians could hold there own in a combined arms conflict against the US, I do have to admire there apparent efficiency in procurement. Maybe it's the one thing communism did right. While the USAF was trying for to kill off the A-10 for the third or fourth time, The Russian Air Force was spending money on modernizing and rebuilding Su-25 airframes.
American weapons development specifically has a lot of problems, but let's get one thing clear: the USA has the absolute ZENITH in military development globally, full stop. The problem is the usual suspect - corrupt corporate practices. The talented men and women who made the US the premier empire of death have been replaced whenever possible with cheap knock offs with greater amounts of taxpayer dollars going to either lobbyists or upper management. What little goes to actual development gets used for active-unit maintenance and cost efficiency programs.

Don't get me wrong. These are noble engineering goals in their own right. But spending trillions to "develop" the F35 - a plane that, similar to the F22 before it, will N E V E R be risked in actual combat - while throwing a few excess millions to keep the F16's (The same F16's that WILL guaranteed fly 99.9999% of combat missions) flying another decade is not cost efficiency. Returning to the more broad systemic problem, eventually these practices will result in American firms unable to make actual hardware. Talented people fade away while chucklefuck college "grads" replace them. Whatever you may think of US foreign policy weapons development has produced absolute wonders in scientific advancement. Perhaps instead of spending more money we should spend less - and make sure it goes to the right people.

Anyway I know some dumb fuck is just waiting to jump down my throat for the Slate link earlier so let me address it - yes the F22 has flown a single (1) combat mission since then. In the most cherry-picked scenario imaginable. The pilots aren't cowards or anything just no one is wanting to explain to the DoD why literal cave people shot down a billion dollar plane. Not after the stealth fighter balkan posting debacle from Clinton's little war. The F22 HAS flown 'simulations' (I could write a thesis on why these simulations are utter rubbish) where shockingly they are BTFO. Shock horror it's used to demonstrate how we need to support the F35 with more billions right now!!!

Tl;dr :autism:
and jet fuel can't melt steel beams
 
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American weapons development specifically has a lot of problems, but let's get one thing clear: the USA has the absolute ZENITH in military development globally, full stop.
I don't disagree with this, but I do think Russia gets more for their ruble. If for no other reason than they support systems that work and aren't always chasing the shiny.
Don't get me wrong. These are noble engineering goals in their own right. But spending trillions to "develop" the F35 - a plane that, similar to the F22 before it, will N E V E R be risked in actual combat - while throwing a few excess millions to keep the F16's (The same F16's that WILL guaranteed fly 99.9999% of combat missions) flying another decade is not cost efficiency.
The Air Force is going to run out of F16 airframes with remaining service hours soon. They will either have to explain to congress why then need to rebuild a bunch of "old" fighters or the F35 will see combat.
Perhaps instead of spending more money we should spend less - and make sure it goes to the right people.
100% this.
 
The Air Force is going to run out of F16 airframes with remaining service hours soon. They will either have to explain to congress why then need to rebuild a bunch of "old" fighters or the F35 will see combat.
Nah there is already a new initiative to tack on more service hours to the F16 that was nearly done until the "Vice President's pilot son claims a systemic failure in oxygen system of ALL US planes" thing. It'll be quietly reviewed, accepted and approved in the amount of time the F35 needs to shit out a cherry picked press release.
 
It's cheap to do when you conscript and use warmed over Soviet gear. They don't care too much about casualties.

The big thing with the US is being able to fight and win anywhere. Power projection. This cost big bucks but it's worth it. If we don't have the capability to stomp out renegade shit the world suddenly becomes a very dangerous place because nobody is there to pick up the slack.

Arms races do not end well. A global arms race would be a disaster.
600 billion dollars. I understand the expense of force projection but perhaps the DoD should streamline procurement before asking for even more billions of dollars not that the DoD is asking in this case. It's a panic mongering "study".
 
Absolute fucking nonsense to suggest anyone has anywhere near our technological superiority, the amount of toys we have, or suggest nuclear deterrence isn't still relevant. Russia and China can stunt invasion into their land, what a shock. Outside of photo ops, most of their shit looks like they drove it straight from the 80s.

US problems are the sort more money will not solve. If you want a sneak peak at what US bureaucratic dysfunction will look like in WW3, read about the Millennium Challenge joint forces exercise. Meanwhile the Pentagon has TRILLIONS in graft that we know of and they still want more.
 
I don't disagree with this, but I do think Russia gets more for their ruble. If for no other reason than they support systems that work and aren't always chasing the shiny.

The Air Force is going to run out of F16 airframes with remaining service hours soon. They will either have to explain to congress why then need to rebuild a bunch of "old" fighters or the F35 will see combat.

100% this.
The US has plenty of stuff that has more than stood the test of time and has pretty high cost to lifespan. The B-52 and C-130 are scheduled to have nearly a century in service before being retired. The M2 machine gun is nearly at a century in service already. The U-2's service life is going to be crazy long. I don't understand why internet generals credit the Russians for service life, but not the US, and credit the Russians for their technology demonstrators as if they were deployable but don't do the same thing for the US. The Russians can barely deploy anything anywhere except for their old satellite states.
 
I know this thread is focusing on the usual spheres of military conflict (Land, Sea, Air). But something really important the paper missed is the rising importance of cyber warfare. I assume most people know how important power grids, communication systems, and other shit that is vulnerable to hacking are.

Has the military considered employing white hats in large scale to hack systems of national importance in order to expose vulnerabilities that need to be fixed.
 
Has the military considered employing white hats in large scale to hack systems of national importance in order to expose vulnerabilities that need to be fixed.
They elevated US Cyber Command to a Unified Combat Command (this year) , and defensive white hat activity is their public face.
 
Quick math problem: Say the average family in your country is making 5x more annually than it was 1995. What would this mean in terms of costs for maintaining a globally significant military?

If Congress were composed of smart folk, I'd almost believe that report is a, "They are so weak. What an opportunity," bit of propaganda designed to make the chinks push their money in the middle.
 
Isn't a huge chunk of America's military still propping up some sham of a society in Afghanistan? And isn't the old, shitty retired military gear given to local police departments still better than anything the Russians or Chinese have? If the US actually consolidated their shit, trimmed the fat and put their full industrial might behind the military I doubt anyone could do dick and the Chinese and Russians didn't get to where they are by being exceptional.

But yeah keep funneling the Department of Defense budget into building more shiny gun machines, the VA can just get fucked I guess.
 
The US has plenty of stuff that has more than stood the test of time and has pretty high cost to lifespan. The B-52 and C-130 are scheduled to have nearly a century in service before being retired.
For every B52 platform there things going on like the USAF wanting to retire the A10 for 30 years, doing CAS with supersonic heavy bombers, and pining after a heavy bomber variant of the B2.

The Russians can barely deploy anything anywhere except for their old satellite states.
Which would be a problem, if they had any interest outside their sphere of influence. Couple months ago they loaded up an armor battalion on a train in Crimea and it was in Syria latter the same week.

Nah there is already a new initiative to tack on more service hours to the F16 that was nearly done until the "Vice President's pilot son claims a systemic failure in oxygen system of ALL US planes" thing. It'll be quietly reviewed, accepted and approved in the amount of time the F35 needs to shit out a cherry picked press release.
I have completely missed this, but I'm not surprised. Well, I'm surprised and disappointed it's getting funding easily.
 
The Russian Navy being a 30 year running joke only effects things outside of Eur-asia. They can take a train to most conceivable conflicts. China is starting to build a blue water navy, but are nowhere near a threat now.



The US military can't afford to upgrade to M1A2 SEPv3 tanks. The US Army hasn't had airborne capable armor in 20 years and is borrowing LAV-25's from the Marines. The BMPT was put on hold with the expectation all T72 based armor would be replaced by T14. After the Russians figured out they can't afford to replace any T72's with T14's the BMPT has once again been greenlit. The US Army is critically short on self-propelled howitzers and rocket systems. Russia has stood up a Light Motorized Brigade that is well suited to low-intensity desert conflict.

While I'm not convinced the Russians could hold there own in a combined arms conflict against the US, I do have to admire there apparent efficiency in procurement. Maybe it's the one thing communism did right. While the USAF was trying for to kill off the A-10 for the third or fourth time, The Russian Air Force was spending money on modernizing and rebuilding Su-25 airframes.
Procurement in the US is a bureaucratic nightmare of corporate welfare and monopoly. More like mercantilism than capitalism, really. An autocracy can outperform that easily enough by cutting through the red tape with bullets and heavy metal poisoning.
 
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