Sperg about comic books here

[Water-T]

I see DC are doing Superman and the Authority next month - I gather that's the main DCU bland versions of the Wildstorm characters rather than any return of the Wildstorm universe proper (or anything to do with Warren Ellis' excellent but abortive Wild Storm reboot).

So that makes TWO reboot series that Ellis bailed on before completion?

 

[Affluent Reptilian]

So that makes TWO reboot series that Ellis bailed on before completion?

Are you thinking of newuniversal? Which I also liked. His reason there was actually crappier than Wild Storm. For Wild Storm it was more or less 'the artist is extremely unreliable'. For newuniversal it was 'I lost my notes when my laptop bricked'.

I don't really credit the artist reason too much either tbh. Artists can be changed and the artist for Wild Storm was not an integral part of the creative process.

 

[jspit2.0]

Mediocre at best. A whole lot of nothing happens in the main series. The spin-offs aren't much better. Nothing very imaginative.

Jupiter's Requiem issue 1 finally came out. Not bad - I liked Circle okay and Legacy quite a lot previously; this is more in line with Legacy. Interested in what's going on with the aliens, who are shown in a weird and menacing light here.

I see DC are doing Superman and the Authority next month - I gather that's the main DCU bland versions of the Wildstorm characters rather than any return of the Wildstorm universe proper (or anything to do with Warren Ellis' excellent but abortive Wild Storm reboot).

Ellis' WildStorm was as interesting as watching paint dry. Decompressed and boring.

So that makes TWO reboot series that Ellis bailed on before completion?

Yeah, guys got no stamina.

Though to be fair, WildStorm and its spin-offs sold for shit.

Are you thinking of newuniversal? Which I also liked. His reason there was actually crappier than Wild Storm. For Wild Storm it was more or less 'the artist is extremely unreliable'. For newuniversal it was 'I lost my notes when my laptop bricked'.

Naaaah. One of Wildstorm's spin-offs that happened. But like I said, it sold terribly. It was supposed to have three or four spin offs, so one artist didn't kill it.

I don't really credit the artist reason too much either tbh. Artists can be changed and the artist for Wild Storm was not an integral part of the creative process.

Yeah, it was probably a mix of DC trimming down, Ellis getting MeToo'd, and the series selling like shit.

I didn't like it at all. In fact, I think it was symbolic of everything that killed the WildstormU as a whole.

 

[Prehistoric Jazz]

I thought The Wild Storm was great, but on reread I see your points. The original WSU contained so many of my favorite moments I'm quite biased. Still, I did enjoy Midnighter and Apollo tearing apart science officers and saucers for the short period it was available, and Lynch was on an interesting path. Ah well.

 

[jspit2.0]

I thought The Wild Storm was great, but on reread I see your points. The original WSU contained so many of my favorite moments I'm quite biased.

Yeah, but which Wildstorm?

Because my favorite moments are Adam Warren, Adam Hughes, Gary Frank etc on Gen13. A tongue in cheek 90s comedy book with sexy women and handsome men.

I liked the Wildcats. The colorful, larger than life heroes. I liked Cole Cash and Majestic and Ladytron.

Oh, look. He blackface Majestic and put him in a suit with an Obama hair cut. yay....

Literally nothing I liked at Wildstorm wasn't erased by that fucking drugged out sex pest and this faggot shit. Nothing is more current day than the final IO sequence which plays out along the literal lines of the grievance stack. Miles (gay white dude) loses to Iavana (straight? white girl), who then loses to gender swapped Jackson King (Black Lesbian).

 

[Prehistoric Jazz]

Travis Charest was great. I loved the Changers event, the Majestic run with Desmond, the era of Wildcats discovering their war was outdated, how the Authority started strong, wavered, eventually took control of the States in Coup Detat and gave it back when they failed to lead. Sleeper was amazing, Ladytron was Juliette Lewis from Natural Born Killers, and the Stormwatch team went from UN-backed gijoe/xmen combo to UN soldiers perfecting human to superhuman combat to precinct-precinct-level tactics for countering post human crime. Rocky, but still compelling. Hell, Number Of The Beast was neat and the art was wonderful. There was a backup in one of the post World's End series with the vampire nations taking over Europe as the world was overcast and cooling, and Wetworks being coopted by Jackson King. Gorgeous art.

 

[kaien]

Naaaah. One of Wildstorm's spin-offs that happened. But like I said, it sold terribly. It was supposed to have three or four spin offs, so one artist didn't kill it.

The Deathblow spin-off that managed to ship was godawful, too. Complete shit. Nothing but retread ideas and sub-amateur art.

I liked the main Wild Storm series, for all that it has every one of Ellis's little tics in it. I totally understand why some people hated it, but I enjoyed the tone and the updated takes on the characters.

All the groundwork it laid for a Gen13 reboot was really interesting, too. Could have turned out great in the right hands.

Regardless of how well Wild Storm did at the box office, they planned a new six-issue WildCATs mini spinning out of it that got as far as the solicit stage before it was suddenly cancelled. The timing leads me to suspect someone at DC knew in advance that Ellis's sex life was about to blow him out of the water.

Because my favorite moments are Adam Warren, Adam Hughes, Gary Frank etc on Gen13. A tongue in cheek 90s comedy book with sexy women and handsome men.

Warren's run writing Gen13 is massively underrated. The art was never consistent, just a constant go-round of the 00s Wildstorm b-listers (who all ended up becoming New 52 b-listers a few years later) but he had some super funny and creative stories in there. The last two issues where he

Spoiler

had to kill off the team

are a couple of my all time faves from those years.

 

[Affluent Reptilian]

Yeah, but which Wildstorm?

Because my favorite moments are Adam Warren, Adam Hughes, Gary Frank etc on Gen13. A tongue in cheek 90s comedy book with sexy women and handsome men.

Ver archivo adjunto 2270653Ver archivo adjunto 2270648

I liked the Wildcats. The colorful, larger than life heroes. I liked Cole Cash and Majestic and Ladytron.

Ver archivo adjunto 2270661Ver archivo adjunto 2270658

Oh, look. He blackface Majestic and put him in a suit with an Obama hair cut. yay....

Literally nothing I liked at Wildstorm wasn't erased by that fucking drugged out sex pest and this faggot shit. Nothing is more current day than the final IO sequence which plays out along the literal lines of the grievance stack. Miles (gay white dude) loses to Iavana (straight? white girl), who then loses to gender swapped Jackson King (Black Lesbian).

That's not Majestic getting blacked, that's John Colt (the guy Spartan came from in original Wildstorm).

The thing I liked about the original Wildstorm was the... Paranoia of the setting. All the conspiracy theories and worst doubts about those in power were true. Comics in this vein - Sleeper (one of my favourite comics of all), Moore's Wildcats run, Ellis' Stormwatch (but not his Authority or the Authority generally, which I find too cartoony and poorly integrated with the rest of the Wildstorm universe; I guess Brubaker's was my favourite Authority but it was just okay), Wildcats 3.0, Planetary. Some of the Mister Majestic comics were very good too, albeit they didn't feel very much like Wildstorm.

The Wild Storm fit in with these comics in tone, so it felt like a proper successor to me. Never got into Gen13.

 

[kaien]

The thing I liked about the original Wildstorm was the... Paranoia of the setting.

Yeah, the original elevator pitch for WildCATs -- even if Lee and Choi weren't that great at pulling it off to begin with -- was basically "superheroes plus X-Files black ops UFO conspiracy," and that gave the line a pretty solid place to start from. Always felt like it was at its best when it leaned as hard into the conspiracy shit as possible, like with Sleeper.

 

[jspit2.0]

That's not Majestic getting blacked, that's John Colt (the guy Spartan came from in original Wildstorm).

Considering every single fucking character got race/gender swapped it was easy to get confused.

The thing I liked about the original Wildstorm was the... Paranoia of the setting. All the conspiracy theories and worst doubts about those in power were true.

Meh. That was there, but it was exaggerated because Warren wanted anything but Superheroes. OG Wildstorm was a mixed bag. Yeah you had what you describe. Deathblow, Wetworks, and Cybernary. But you also had colorful capes and adventures with the spies and covert stuff happening in a balanced universe.

Ellis ruined all that shit with his woke shit. Authority tilted the universe on a hinge eliminating the heroic elements of Wildstorm while subsequent entires made sure to pander to the kind of people that bought Vertigo books.

Comics in this vein - Sleeper (one of my favourite comics of all), Moore's Wildcats run, Ellis' Stormwatch (but not his Authority or the Authority generally, which I find too cartoony and poorly integrated with the rest of the Wildstorm universe; I guess Brubaker's was my favourite Authority but it was just okay), Wildcats 3.0, Planetary.

So none of the original Wildstorm books? Moore's WildC.A.T.S. is very removed from the others you mentioned.

Most of the comics you mention were published in the 00's. Sleeper was okay, I hated the Authority and Stormwatch is at best a six or seven out of ten, Planetary is all over the place. Wildcats 3.0 starts with an interesting premise but falls apart quick.

Some of the Mister Majestic comics were very good too, albeit they didn't feel very much like Wildstorm.

The Joe Casey/EMC? There's a couple of Majestic runs.

In what way?

The WildStorm fit in with these comics in tone, so it felt like a proper successor to me. Never got into Gen13.

It was for Ellis' portion that he introduced in '99.

Yeah, the original elevator pitch for WildCATs -- even if Lee and Choi weren't that great at pulling it off to begin with -- was basically "superheroes plus X-Files black ops UFO conspiracy," and that gave the line a pretty solid place to start from. Always felt like it was at its best when it leaned as hard into the conspiracy shit as possible, like with Sleeper.

Everyone keeps bringing up Sleeper. Of all the Wildstorm titles for that series to be the one people cling too; released more than a decade after the brand launched and when sales where slumping. Odd.

 

[Affluent Reptilian]

In what way?

Abnett's run was a reasonably standard adventure you might find in a lot of settings - albeit with sci-fi ideas thrown in that were taken more seriously than in ordinary comics. The Joe Casey run read like... I dunno, modern comics that reconstruct Silver Age Superman stories (eg All Star Superman, Tom King's Walmart Superman comic)? They were both well-executed so I like them a lot, but they don't resonate with the wider Wildstorm comics I've read (they did make Majestic a lot cooler, though).

I didn't start reading comics at all until 2003 and the only Wildstorm I read for the first couple of years was the Authority, which may explain why I associate Wildstorm with a different aesthetic and different ideas than you.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Abnett's run was a reasonably standard adventure you might find in a lot of settings - albeit with sci-fi ideas thrown in that were taken more seriously than in ordinary comics. The Joe Casey run read like... I dunno, modern comics that reconstruct Silver Age Superman stories (eg All Star Superman, Tom King's Walmart Superman comic)? They were both well-executed so I like them a lot, but they don't resonate with the wider Wildstorm comics I've read (they did make Majestic a lot cooler, though).

I didn't start reading comics at all until 2003 and the only Wildstorm I read for the first couple of years was the Authority, which may explain why I associate Wildstorm with a different aesthetic and different ideas than you.

i liked Wildstorm but my problem is always the fact that while I enjoy a lot of it, the stuff doesn't really stick with me.

granted I liked that fucking weird captain atom crossover.

and the superhero retirement community

oh and i think the authority/planetary series were really fucking fun but maybe not quite as good as people remember them. i did enjoy all the pastiches and expys of DC/Marvel/etc. heroes and stereotypes present.

 

[kaien]

oh and i think the authority/planetary series were really fucking fun but maybe not quite as good as people remember them. i did enjoy all the pastiches and expys of DC/Marvel/etc. heroes and stereotypes present.

The scene with H. P. Lovecraft ranting about "negro eggs" is a guilty favorite of mine. Not at all fair to ol' Howard Phillips, but it made me laugh.

 

[jspit2.0]

Abnett's run was a reasonably standard adventure you might find in a lot of settings - albeit with sci-fi ideas thrown in that were taken more seriously than in ordinary comics. The Joe Casey run read like... I dunno, modern comics that reconstruct Silver Age Superman stories (eg All Star Superman, Tom King's Walmart Superman comic)? They were both well-executed so I like them a lot, but they don't resonate with the wider Wildstorm comics I've read (they did make Majestic a lot cooler, though).

I didn't start reading comics at all until 2003 and the only Wildstorm I read for the first couple of years was the Authority, which may explain why I associate Wildstorm with a different aesthetic and different ideas than you.

That would explain it.

Your missing out if you don't look into the run preceding Moore's WIldCATS by Jim Robinson. Fuckit, since there isn't anything else I'll just dump a Wildstorm read list.

Spoiler: WildCATS reading

1. WildCATS #1-4.

Written by Choi with art by Jim Lee. Honestly not very good but arts pretty.

2. WildCATS Trilogy #1-3

Choi with Jae Lee on Art. Great art meh story.

3. WildCats #5-9, 14 with Savage Dragon #13 and Cyberforce #1-3 and WildCATS silver age

Choi with Lee, Larsen and Silvestri drawing the books. Pretty art and typical 90s Image.

4. WildCATS #10-13

The best of Jim Lee's run, written by Chris Claremont and really interesting what could have been.

5. WildCATS 15-20 with Wildstorm Rising 1-2 ,WildCATS Annual 1, WildCATS/X-MEN Modern age, and Team One

James Robinson and Travis Charest with guest art by Larry Stroman, Kevin Maguire, Terry Dodson, and Barry Windsor Smith.

6. WildCATS 21-34, 50, WildCATS/SPAWN 1-4, Voodoo 1-4, Fire From Heaven 1-2.

Alan Moore's Run

7. Wildcats Vol 2 1-6, Wildcats the Golden Age.

Travis Charest's brief second run on the book with Scott Lodell.

8. WildcAts vol 2 remainder and 3.0

Joe Casey's run. which brings us to where you started reading.

I'll map more later.

 

[kaien]

The Claremont stuff was interesting, yeah. IIRC the idea was to spin the Huntsman character off into his own book until Claremont found out they weren't gonna give him an A-list artist for the job.

 

[JimiHendrix]

reading through gotham central.

soft targets was really good, though i am a bit surprised Joker didn't put on the cops vest at the end and instead just fucking tanked 6 bullet shots to the torso apparently.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

The Demon Bear arc in New Mutants was okay. It's a pretty standard Claremont X-Men story and if it had Sal Busclema's art I doubt many people would give it much thought. It's purely Bill Sienkiewicz's art that makes it memorable and makes it seem like a horror story -- although I'm convinced he could make standard Spider-Man vs Shocker story look like a horror story. To Sienkiewicz's credit the art is amazing and does really elevate the story.

The story itself is kinda weird. The whole Demon Bear thing has been built up for years with Dani, so you'd think she would be the star here... but she isn't. She gets put into a coma early on and sits out the rest of the story (for the most part). Instead, Illyana ends up largely being the star of the story, using a ton of spells, her arcane knowledge, and soulsword to save the day, and also acts as the leader of the team.

Tying into that, the Demon Bear is constantly shown to be afraid of Dani, with its greatest fear being a projection of Dani herself. Yet they ultimately find out that it fears Dani because... she knows Illyana and knows about her soulsword. Which is weird given Dani only recently met Illyana and doesn't really know much about the soulsword.

Overall it's a nice enough story. The art is great and seeing Illyana kick ass was entertaining, but I don't think it deserves even a tenth of the hype I've seen for it.

 

[kaien]

Yeah, it loses some of its impact because we've all seen a lot of Sienkiewicz in the intervening years. In 1983-1984 his style was utterly outside anything anyone had seen before in mainstream comics.

 

[jspit2.0]

i liked Wildstorm but my problem is always the fact that while I enjoy a lot of it, the stuff doesn't really stick with me.

granted I liked that fucking weird captain atom crossover.

Ah. That series was so fucked up and all over the place. But it also tried to make Wildstorm work. Allot of ideas I liked that never went anywhere.

oh and i think the authority/planetary series were really fucking fun but maybe not quite as good as people remember them. i did enjoy all the pastiches and expys of DC/Marvel/etc. heroes and stereotypes present.

I'm more or less of the opinion it was the time (Bush era) and the art (John Cassady/Bryan Hitch/Frank Quitely).

The Claremont stuff was interesting, yeah. IIRC the idea was to spin the Huntsman character off into his own book until Claremont found out they weren't gonna give him an A-list artist for the job.

Thank you Kaien, I'd forgotten that! Heh.

Continuing the Wildstorm reading list.

Spoiler: GEN 13

Gen 13 list

Gen 13 Vol. 1 1-5 Gen 13 Vol. 2 1-25

Mostly early image art with mediocre writing. Pretty books. The stand outs are G13 Vol 2 6 and 7, drawn by Jim Lee, these establish the DV8's, and 13A, B, C, which feature a who's who of indy characters with Campbell fully into his own.

Gen 13 Tie ins

At this point the big tie ins start. there are a bunch, but the creme are...

Adam Hughs' No ordinary heroes and Superman/Gen13

Kevin Maguire Gen13/FF

Art Adams Gen13/Monkey Man and Obrien

DV8 1-8 and Gen 13 Annual and Bootleg Annual

Written by Warren Ellis with art by Steve Dillon and Humberto Ramos.

Gen 13 Magical Girl Roxy

Written and Drawn by Adam Warren. Madmadmad is the best description.

Gen 13 Bootleg.

Series of prominent writers artists working on the characters. Standouts such as Alan Davis, Walt SImonson, and Adam Warren.

Gen 13 25-41

A major change up, written by John Arcudi who did allot of stuff at Dark Horse and pencilled by Gary Frank. the title becomes more serious and grounded.

Gen 13 42-44

Filler. Two issues drawn by Lee bermejo and written by Adam Warren. Funny, neat concept. A forgettable issue by Joe Casey and Kevin Maguire.

Gen 13 45-59

The Lodell era, mostly drawn by Ed Benes. Some plot but largely hit or miss.

Gen 13 60-77

Written by Adam Warren with a grab bag of artists. Funny and odd.

 

[kaien]

An extra couple cents from me:

Gen13 Bootleg is mostly a rotating cast of creators phoning it in and collecting a check, with one legendary exception. Adam Warren wrote and drew a three-parter called "Grunge: The Movie," which is a world-caliber pisstake of kung fu movies, John Woo shootout movies, movie nerd shit in general, and Gen13 itself. Hard to find these days outside of quarter bins. Side-splitting funny if you were around at the time and you can get all the jokes.

Magical Drama Queen Roxy is Warren's other big Gen13 story as a writer/artist, and it flopped so hard it never even got a short-run trade collection. Again, you kind of had to be there so you can pick up the references and meta-humor (lot of gags here for the creaky old anime nerds), but if you can it's fuckin hilarious.

The original DV8 series is a great concept hamstrung by the fact that however much you liked Warren Ellis in the 00s, he really wasn't that good a writer yet in the 90s. It's a 90s teen book filtered through the Larry Clarke movie Kids: what if a bunch of kidnapped orphan fuckups with superpowers were being operated by an ex-spook psychopath who let them run wild in New York City doing all the drugs, sex, and murder they wanted to in between black ops.

Ellis only wrote the first six issues (plotted the next two). After that it got handed to Wildstorm's usual gang of idiots and it went on for a couple years of being crap, but not crap enough to be interesting. Issues 1 and 2 are worth looking up scans, the antagonists in 2 are this great ultra-disgusting superpowered version of the Manson family. It also has one of my favorite Humberto Ramos pieces ever on the cover (looks best at full size):