Radical politics

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Presumably it'd be possible to hire robots.
robot slavery would have to be outlawed. I don't see it happening, ever.

But machines are capital.

People require wages (and have costs built in, too). If you have no cash reserve and hire people, you're banking on making enough reserves to pay your employees, cover your other costs, and presumably still make some revenue to spare.

Overhead and maintenance on robots would also (presumably) be cheaper than wages for labour in this scenario. r>g, after all.

Also, robots can't unionise. Or rather, by the time robots start unionising, there are larger problems at hand.

OK fine. People would have to work for dirt to be profitable in the long run, or self-employed. Getting a job is not optinal to survive. UNless you think there would be government welfare for all humanity (can't last)
 
But forcing the vast majority of the human race into structural poverty can?
It can last a lot longer. Just imagine the government trying to buy robots to operate. For it it needs money, and it can only take money from robots owner. Basically that's seizing robots and it won't be long before it's overthrown. Poverty, on the other end, is a stable position.
 
For it it needs money, and it can only take money from robots owner. Basically that's seizing robots and it won't be long before it's overthrown.

Is this just a leadup to you telling me taxation is theft?

Poverty, on the other end, is a stable position.

The only way a small number of people would be able to defend themselves against a large number of people is with superior technology. That's money that might as well just be spent on more productive machinery anyway, and it has the added advantage of not alienating or killing all your potential customers.
 
Is this just a leadup to you telling me taxation is theft?
When just a couple guys pay for all of of the more important organisation of a territory, it doesn't take long for them to realize who has the real power.
And btw taxation is extortion, not theft.

The only way a small number of people would be able to defend themselves against a large number of people is with superior technology. That's money that might as well just be spent on more productive machinery anyway, and it has the added advantage of not alienating or killing all your potential customers.
The poors were never considered as potential custumer. Giving away free money for people to buy your product is not a winning business case.
 
It can last a lot longer. Just imagine the government trying to buy robots to operate. For it it needs money, and it can only take money from robots owner. Basically that's seizing robots and it won't be long before it's overthrown. Poverty, on the other end, is a stable position.
Whoever controls the robots would have their position as "owner" dissolved.

When a market fails to be productive, it'll break down. People have interfered with markets for a lot less than "most of humanity being unemployable".
 
When just a couple guys pay for all of of the more important organisation of a territory, it doesn't take long for them to realize who has the real power.
And btw taxation is extortion, not theft.


The poors were never considered as potential custumer. Giving away free money for people to buy your product is not a winning business case.

What ridiculous hyperbole. Taxation is neither extortion or theft- its the fee you pay in exchange for the benefits of living in a society with a measure of common wealth and planning.

you benefit from the defence provided by your nations army, by the infrastructure maintained by its government, you are protected by its laws and the system that maintain them, by the education it provides you and with the healthcare it researches and maintains. If you live in a country without one of these services you will pay less tax. They are directly connected. you are paying for the use of these things not being robbed at gunpoint. you benefit from these things therefore you owe a debt for their use- if you no longer want to pay for these services that is done by stopping using them. that in turn is done by leaving the country and renouncing your citizenship

It is no coincidence that those nations with little to no effective tax regieme often have to make do without the benefits of more stable societies and have corresponding lower life expectancy. sub saharan africa is ripe with countries that struggle to collect taxes. It is also full of barely functioning militaries that cannot protect their people, hospitals that cannot treat complex illness, roads that have not been repaired since the empires that built them left etc.
 
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What ridiculous hyperbole. Taxation is neither extortion or theft- its the fee you pay in exchange for the benefits of living in a society with a measure of common wealth and planning.

you benefit from the defence provided by your nations army, by the infrastructure maintained by its government, you are protected by its laws and the system that maintain them, by the education it provides you and with the healthcare it researches and maintains. If you live in a country without one of these services you will pay less tax. They are directly connected. you are paying for the use of these things not being robbed at gunpoint. you benefit from these things therefore you owe a debt for their use- if you no longer want to pay for these services that is done by stopping using them. that in turn is done by leaving the country and renouncing your citizenship

It is no coincidence that those nations with little to no effective tax regieme often have to make do without the benefits of more stable societies and have corresponding lower life expectancy. sub saharan africa is ripe with countries that struggle to collect taxes. It is also full of barely functioning militaries that cannot protect their people, hospitals that cannot treat complex illness, roads that have not been repaired since the empires that built them left etc.

Saying taxation is extortion is fact. You can argue that it is benefecial because it pays for educations, roads, security, etc... Still it fits the definition. I could do a direct comparison with rhetoric used by gangs, but I don't think it would help. Let me link to a definition instead : "obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion."

" you benefit from these things therefore you owe a debt for their use": That's not what the common theory of contracts in use says. When I take the metro, there are often musicians playing music that everybody benefits. They rely on donations. You don't have to go out of your way and take a different station not to donate.

"It is no coincidence that those nations with little to no effective tax regieme often have to make do without the benefits of more stable societies and have corresponding lower life expectancy." If we try to argue every point about the government in the same discussion, it will never end.
 
Saying taxation is extortion is fact. You can argue that it is benefecial because it pays for educations, roads, security, etc... Still it fits the definition. I could do a direct comparison with rhetoric used by gangs, but I don't think it would help. Let me link to a definition instead : "obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion."

" you benefit from these things therefore you owe a debt for their use": That's not what the common theory of contracts in use says. When I take the metro, there are often musicians playing music that everybody benefits. They rely on donations. You don't have to go out of your way and take a different station not to donate.
.

I know all about contract law hence why I was very careful not to use the word. Your grasp of law on the other hand is as cherry picked and oversimplified as your grasp of the realities of politics.

there is a quote from Abraham Lincoln that is commonly repeated by those in the profession even over here across the Atlantic it goes something like this:

He who represents himself has a fool for a client

For those reading the thread this is what Lincoln meant by that quote and I hope also a warning as to what happens when lay people cherry pick legal doctrines.

Tax law is not a contract. Its routes are older and pre-date contract law as we know it. In origin tax law ultimately comes from Roman law and developed from the maxim nemo locupletari potest aliena iactura or nemo locupletari debet cum aliena iactura. That maxim survives in modern civil law, distinct from contract law and in the English speaking hybrid courts in Scotland, South Africa and Louisiana as the Law of Unjustified Enrichment. To simplify the concept as i'm on my lunchbreak- the law is that where a man profits at the expense of another he is bound to make good the loss.

When you hear a busker you have profited but at no cost to the performer. When you are educated, when you are defended by the military of a state, when you travel upon the states roads you are profiting at the expense of the state. This is where your obligation to pay taxes comes from.

you might be tempted to argue that the law of unjustified enrichment is different in common law systems but it is irrelevant because all common law jurisdictions were established on the ruins of the Roman administration and as such all tax law ultimately has its source in that doctrine. They all inherited and accepted the doctrine that citizens are obliged to pay taxes in exchange for the state providing them with benefits of society.

The myth that legal obligations arise only from contracts is something that is peddled by OPLCA and tax deniers- it has failed every time it has ever come before a court. As has the myth that taxes are extortion. Yes there is a punishment for failure to pay- but the punishment is for failing to meet your obligations not part of a racket.

I sincerely hope you are a layperson and that this is an honest mistake. If it isn't and you are a professional and I ever get your name and jurisdiction I will report you to your law society and ensure you are sanctioned. The beliefs you are peddling have been proven false time and time again and I know of more than a few unscrupulous lawyers who were debarred and disgraced for selling them as snake oil to the vulnerable.

Your definition of extortion is actually quite good but it does not accurately describe taxes which are 'payments leveled to pay for the services enjoyed by the taxpayer and paid for by the state'. extortion is forcing someone to gift you things under threat of violence it is not seeking compensation for the use of services you provide.

"It is no coincidence that those nations with little to no effective tax regieme often have to make do without the benefits of more stable societies and have corresponding lower life expectancy." If we try to argue every point about the government in the same discussion, it will never end.

If we argue any point in politics without giving prime place to what actually works then we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. It is an empirical fact that without taxation society cannot function at more than a tribal level and that those tribes inevitably fall into a might makes right power system.

Optional taxation does not work this is proven by the state of those countries where tax avoidance is so rife and so tolerated it may as well be a choice. you cannot respond to evidence that proves your theories on taxation to be unworkable by saying ah well we cannot discuss everything- the two are linked there is a reason modern tax law has evolved the way it has with literally thousands of years of people scrutinising it to try and find it unfair and get out of paying it and it is not because of coercion.
 
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Eh I'm not trying to argue that taxes are "legally extortion" and would hold before a court. That's dumb, the government made the laws.
I'm saying it is by common dictionary definition. Disclaiumer: I'm not a lawyer and I don't care much about laws. Do not take anything I say as legal advice.

Please calm down with your assumptions. I don't have grand theories and ideals to stick to. I don't plan on overthrowing the government, changing things with politics or whatever. I once was thinking alot about how to change things. Fact is we can't. I'm merely discussing my hate of government rather than proposing a course of action.
 
Eh I'm not trying to argue that taxes are "legally extortion" and would hold before a court. That's dumb, the government made the laws.
I'm saying it is by common dictionary definition. Disclaiumer: I'm not a lawyer and I don't care much about laws. Do not take anything I say as legal advice.

Please calm down with your assumptions. I don't have grand theories and ideals to stick to. I don't plan on overthrowing the government, changing things with politics or whatever. I once was thinking alot about how to change things. Fact is we can't. I'm merely discussing my hate of government rather than proposing a course of action.
I deal with the results of people like you going around saying stupid, patently untrue things like taxation is extortion and encouraging people to hate their governments fairly often. It annoys me because people read nonsense like what you've been posting and then try and construct bullshit cases round it and inevitably end up in a great deal of trouble.

I'm going to make this very clear: taxation is not extortion.

Further hatred of government as an institution is just as unworkable as hatred of the free market. Both individualism and collectivism have advantages and disadvantages however as you move further toward the extremes the corresponding disadvantages get larger and larger.

Radical politics doesn't work. Every successful nation has had both a government capable of useing extensive powers when it felt the need to do so and a reasonably free market.
 
Please calm down with your assumptions. I don't have grand theories

"Taxation = extortion" is a theory. And given that you're criticising something that is a near universal practice, it's a pretty grand one.

I know you think that your ideas are just common sense and not the product of some ideology, but so does everybody else, including all those people who believe the diametric opposite of you.

I was going to say maybe we should have a different thread for "DNJack libtards and everyone argues with him", but I guess all this fits broadly within the definition of 'radical politics' so I won't insist.
 
I deal with the results of people like you going around saying stupid, patently untrue things like taxation is extortion and encouraging people to hate their governments fairly often. It annoys me because people read nonsense like what you've been posting and then try and construct bullshit cases round it and inevitably end up in a great deal of trouble.

I'm going to make this very clear: taxation is not extortion.

Further hatred of government as an institution is just as unworkable as hatred of the free market. Both individualism and collectivism have advantages and disadvantages however as you move further toward the extremes the corresponding disadvantages get larger and larger.

Radical politics doesn't work. Every successful nation has had both a government capable of useing extensive powers when it felt the need to do so and a reasonably free market.
I work very well with my hatred, tyvm. Did I mention I wasn't planning a coup d'État? I believe I did.

Also, I hope schoolbooks one day mention my grand theory of the definition of extortion.
 
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I know all about contract law hence why I was very careful not to use the word. Your grasp of law on the other hand is as cherry picked and oversimplified as your grasp of the realities of politics.

there is a quote from Abraham Lincoln that is commonly repeated by those in the profession even over here across the Atlantic it goes something like this:



For those reading the thread this is what Lincoln meant by that quote and I hope also a warning as to what happens when lay people cherry pick legal doctrines.

Tax law is not a contract. Its routes are older and pre-date contract law as we know it. In origin tax law ultimately comes from Roman law and developed from the maxim nemo locupletari potest aliena iactura or nemo locupletari debet cum aliena iactura. That maxim survives in modern civil law, distinct from contract law and in the English speaking hybrid courts in Scotland, South Africa and Louisiana as the Law of Unjustified Enrichment. To simplify the concept as i'm on my lunchbreak- the law is that where a man profits at the expense of another he is bound to make good the loss.

When you hear a busker you have profited but at no cost to the performer. When you are educated, when you are defended by the military of a state, when you travel upon the states roads you are profiting at the expense of the state. This is where your obligation to pay taxes comes from.

you might be tempted to argue that the law of unjustified enrichment is different in common law systems but it is irrelevant because all common law jurisdictions were established on the ruins of the Roman administration and as such all tax law ultimately has its source in that doctrine. They all inherited and accepted the doctrine that citizens are obliged to pay taxes in exchange for the state providing them with benefits of society.

The myth that legal obligations arise only from contracts is something that is peddled by OPLCA and tax deniers- it has failed every time it has ever come before a court. As has the myth that taxes are extortion. Yes there is a punishment for failure to pay- but the punishment is for failing to meet your obligations not part of a racket.

I sincerely hope you are a layperson and that this is an honest mistake. If it isn't and you are a professional and I ever get your name and jurisdiction I will report you to your law society and ensure you are sanctioned. The beliefs you are peddling have been proven false time and time again and I know of more than a few unscrupulous lawyers who were debarred and disgraced for selling them as snake oil to the vulnerable.

Your definition of extortion is actually quite good but it does not accurately describe taxes which are 'payments leveled to pay for the services enjoyed by the taxpayer and paid for by the state'. extortion is forcing someone to gift you things under threat of violence it is not seeking compensation for the use of services you provide.



If we argue any point in politics without giving prime place to what actually works then we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. It is an empirical fact that without taxation society cannot function at more than a tribal level and that those tribes inevitably fall into a might makes right power system.

Optional taxation does not work this is proven by the state of those countries where tax avoidance is so rife and so tolerated it may as well be a choice. you cannot respond to evidence that proves your theories on taxation to be unworkable by saying ah well we cannot discuss everything- the two are linked there is a reason modern tax law has evolved the way it has with literally thousands of years of people scrutinising it to try and find it unfair and get out of paying it and it is not because of coercion.
I'm an anarchist and I believe that law is a spook. I did not agree to any of these elegant definitions of extortion and I had no role in shaping the tax code. Why should I be bound by them? Taxes aren't extortion because people are given things in return? If somebody decides that they no longer want to pay in exchange for these things, they are sent to prison and forced to pay. There is no option to not pay and not receive the services, you must pay for them and receive them whether you want them or not. How is that not some form of robbery? Someone's being forced to buy something they don't want under threat of imprisonment.
 
I'm an anarchist and I believe that law is a spook. I did not agree to any of these elegant definitions of extortion and I had no role in shaping the tax code. Why should I be bound by them? Taxes aren't extortion because people are given things in return? If somebody decides that they no longer want to pay in exchange for these things, they are sent to prison and forced to pay. There is no option to not pay and not receive the services, you must pay for them and receive them whether you want them or not. How is that not some form of robbery? Someone's being forced to buy something they don't want under threat of imprisonment.


You are not being forced- the taxes you pay are the price for the comforts of the society you live in, if you do not wish to pay thats fine- but you must remove yourself from the society physically so you no longer benefit from the commonwealth.

That then is the the option not to pay and not to use the services by leaving. The reason it is so extreme us because in practice it is impossible not to benefit as a side effect of the state while living within its borders- you will benefit from better trade through infrastructure, from herd immunty through vaccinations, from reduced crine due to organised police, from a lack of maruding banditry caused by national defence and countless other side effects from having an organised state.

I would suggest that you will be reluctant to move away however as those parts of the world where there is little to no taxation tend to be awful or prohibitively expensive. Which of course is the reason society is willing to pay taxes and have structures- because those cultures that do are inevitably both stronger and more pleasent to live in than anarchies.




That is the choice adults have- stay and enjoy the benefits of the society they grew up in but be expected to contribute towards the running of that society and abide by its laws or leave and find or make somewhere that suits their view better.

The position you are laying out is the heart of the 'no consent' OPCL arguement it has been argued by men wanting to avoid paying for the socities they live in for generations. It was an erroneous theory under the Romans and it erroneous now under western liberal democracy.

Especially in the modern world where in exchange for agreeing with the results of the process you are able to actively shape and reshape the system provided you can persuade enough of your fellow citizens to vote for you.

The simple reply is that someone is not being forced to buy but billed for something they have used.

I apologise for the overly simple answer but its late here and i was going to bed when i got the alert.
 
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@vitriol, I totally agree that law and taxes are necesseray to keep order in any society currently existing, but the choice is only stay or leave if you agree to play by the collective rules. I am of the opinion that allegiance have to be earned by honor, devotion, accountability to the people bellow them and strenght to the challenge they face. It's a very rare thing to be worthy of. Of the people in charge in a government, I have see neither a judge, a politician, a policeman nor a military commander showing these to me or the ones I care about. As such, I do not feel my honor is at risk by disobeying them. As strange as it might be do a man of law, the ethics of honor is not dead. As things goes, I find for important to be able to look at myself with pride in the mirror than to live in a society where roads are well-maintained. Take of that what you want.
 
You are not being forced- the taxes you pay are the price for the comforts of the society you live in, if you do not wish to pay thats fine- but you must remove yourself from the society physically so you no longer benefit from the commonwealth.

That then is the the option not to pay and not to use the services by leaving. The reason it is so extreme us because in practice it is impossible not to benefit as a side effect of the state while living within its borders- you will benefit from better trade through infrastructure, from herd immunty through vaccinations, from reduced crine due to organised police, from a lack of maruding banditry caused by national defence and countless other side effects from having an organised state.

I would suggest that you will be reluctant to move away however as those parts of the world where there is little to no taxation tend to be awful or prohibitively expensive. Which of course is the reason society is willing to pay taxes and have structures- because those cultures that do are inevitably both stronger and more pleasent to live in than anarchies.




That is the choice adults have- stay and enjoy the benefits of the society they grew up in but be expected to contribute towards the running of that society and abide by its laws or leave and find or make somewhere that suits their view better.

The position you are laying out is the heart of the 'no consent' OPCL arguement it has been argued by men wanting to avoid paying for the socities they live in for generations. It was an erroneous theory under the Romans and it erroneous now under western liberal democracy.

Especially in the modern world where in exchange for agreeing with the results of the process you are able to actively shape and reshape the system provided you can persuade enough of your fellow citizens to vote for you.

The simple reply is that someone is not being forced to buy but billed for something they have used.

I apologise for the overly simple answer but its late here and i was going to bed when i got the alert.
The problem of consent is not erroneous. Where people are born is completely left to chance. They grow up and form bonds with friends, family, and the land itself. Then they become adults and are told that they must submit to the will of the King/President/Prime Minister or leave the place they inhabit at once. If they happen to disagree with the sovereign they must choose between submission or exile. There's nothing just about that. If the government starts a mandatory tax to pay for a new nuclear weapon, I either need to abandon my home or abandon my anti-nuclear principles. What kind of choice is that to force a free man to make? The problem of consent is the reason anarchist theory exists.
 
I am of the opinion that allegiance have to be earned by honor, devotion, accountability to the people bellow them and strenght to the challenge they face.
I admire the sentiment and it does quite a lot to mend my opinion of you however I don't agree with it, i think what you are describing are criteria for loyalty. Further I have seen a great many judges, policemen and the rest that behave far better than many if not all of the 'anarchists' i have ever met. Though i concede that on both counts that depends entirely on which individuals you meet.
As such, I do not feel my honor is at risk by disobeying them. As strange as it might be do a man of law, the ethics of honor is not dead.
Quite the opposite much of the law is built on honour. Where you see honour in disobeying those you see as unworthy but I see someone willing to profit from the benefits of society built by the contributions of others and yet unwilling to contribute in kind purely because of arbitrary reasons that ultimately have a font in pride.- this to me is grossly dishonourable.

I do feel we are straying a little towards the issue of civil disobedience which has slightly different dimensions than the obligation to pay taxes although the two are linked- I would acknowledge for example that if you find those in power totally intolerable and are unable by the ordinary means to dispose of them then rebellion is the only way. However i think this is quite distinct from refusing to pay taxes while living peacefully within a society and the argument that taxes are extortion purely because they are backed up with force.



you mention that it is rare for others to be worthy of your respect- i would suggest that if you are not willing to pay for the benefits you receive you are not worthy of their respect. we then very quickly come to the obvious flaw in anarchy arguments- we disagree and as per anarchist theory, there is no higher arbitrator we eventually come to a might make right situation. which in the long run inevitably favours the dishonourable.



Roman law was based in philosophy of a people obsessed with honour. Men like cicero made their careers arguing matters of honour infront of public crowds. If it is honour rather than anrachy that is your central tenant I would recommend seeking out a copy of the corpus iusris civilus compiled by Justinian. I think you will be surprised by how fair many of the laws are rewarding those who behave honourably and going out of their way to punish the dishonourable..
 
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