Pronoun use

[mindlessobserver]

There needs to be a third option. I will refer you by how you present yourself and how you look. If you look like a man, I will say sir, if you look like a woman I will say ma'am. There are occasionally some ambiguous looking people but they are very rare. 99% of the time people will look like what they are. It used to be the goal of transition was to become as passable as possible so people don't even know you were once your birth gender. It was never about "identity". The goal was to not be identifiable as a tranny. And for people who legitimately have gender dysphoria, this is still the goal. The people autistically screeching about "call me Xe or Xir" are pathological narcissists who may or may not have a cross dressing fetish.

The thing I hate the most about them is they are legitimately hurting people who do have gender dysphoria. Its a horrific disease of the mind but it is treatable. The first goal used to be to talk the person off the ledge of wanting to harm themselves. Usually the dysphoria is a symptom of underlying depression or traumatic stress and resolves itself after that gets treated. The desire to become another gender is in its own way a form of suicide, where you "kill" who you are now to become someone else. Its a form of psychological escape from a shitty situation. It was very rare for transition to be approved by a doctor, and it was considered the treatment of last resort. Not a lifestyle choice and something to be encouraged.

 

[Otoya Yamacoochie]

It depends on what kind of friend it is. If it's one of my closest friends, I'm going to meet it with a lot of scrutiny, because that's what I think friends should do. They should be willing to call you out and make you evaluate your decisions where other people would just smile and nod. If it's a friendly acquaintance then yeah I'll play along to be diplomatic.

 

[Feline Darkmage]

Using made up pronouns is better than a biological male using "she" or vice versa. New words come into use all the time, whereas he and she have clear, well established meanings that don't include people who are not biologically the sex to which they refer.

Most unique and gay take I've heard on the issue.
10/10 would think deeply again.

 

[keksz]

If you look like a man, I will say sir, if you look like a woman I will say ma'am.

Even if I wanted to do otherwise, my brain doesn't have the capacity to store each exceptional individual's preferred made-up self-words and their proper conjugations. Even though my brain is capable of amazing feats, it derps out even when talking to women that look too manly sometimes.

Sorry, it's nothing personal but don't ask me to adjust my language to your liking. I'm a simple man: if you're a guy in my eyes you're a he and a she otherwise. I might try mildly to adopt your preferences but in all likelihood I know I'll just fail half the time so why even bother?

I mean, would you preface my name with His Royal Highness Keksz if I asked you to? That would definitely get a kick out of me. You're not doing it even if I ask you nicely so I'm not doing it for your either and I'm not even sorry about it.

 

[Koby_Fish]

it occurs to me that one rarely uses pronouns (of the preferred kind) when talking directly to the person. "You" comes to mind as the most common pronoun used in direct conversation. So it occurs to me is that the person who demands the snowflaky pronoun usage by others desires to police the speech of people around others, whether in earshot or not.

 

[keksz]

So it occurs to me is that the person who demands the snowflaky pronoun usage by others desires to police the speech of people

That is definitely the case and it's painfully obvious. This video is plenty autistic in itself but definitely goes to show that the type of person who's going to make a huge fuss about what words are allowed to be used to refer to them, are really only doing it for attention (or at least in most of the cases in the current state of affairs):

 

[Grisp]

Honestly, I love the reactionary response that lots of people have to transpeople. If you meet a person, ask for their name and get "Kevin" as a reply, are you going to ask for their ID to prove that Kevin is their actual name? If not, why would you want proof for their genitals before you decide whether or not you should use the pronouns that they prefer? Holy shit this forum has to be socially retarded, I don't even want to imagine how you would act in real life.

Not a fucking chance. I'll tell him to play his Elsa game in the comfort of his own home.

Like look at this fucking disaster.

I'm okay with calling someone their preferred choice of he or she, if they're making an effort to pass, aren't completely insane and aren't just blatantly attention grabbing. They is only something I use to refer to a person who's gender I don't know or as a neutral pronoun in examples where the person in question could be either male or female. Xir is right out.

While I don't really agree with it, I can understand people being unwilling to do even that much. If you think gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can be corrected, calling a man a woman or vice versa would be amoral, as you are reinforcing that person's delusion just to avoid a scene.

This seems like the only reasonable opinion you could have for not adjusting your pronoun use for a lifelong friend. Well said.

Online I'll just go with whatever the person asks for, as long as it's not something completely exceptional (I will use "they" but not neopronouns or "it"). I have never encountered someone who asked me to use different pronouns IRL but if they do I probably won't humor them unless they actually transition or are in the process of transitioning.

Other than situations of obviously transgender people I will default to a person's visible sex.

"Other than situations of obviously transgender people I will default to a person's visible sex."
On a surface level I understand this, but why does your conclusion of what gender the person is trump what they identify as?

 

[Gus]

People are going to think how they want to think. What you say to, call, and how you perceive others is up to you and you alone, and so is how you feel.

If someone decides that they are trans, they may request that you call them by their preferred pronouns, but how you respond is your decision and should be respected as such. Likewise, it's up to those who make the request how they respond to that decision. If you feel that way, then the disagreements of others will not invalidate it unless you invalidate it, yourself.

Make your own decisions, but don't try to make them for others.

 

[DrunkJoe]

In my circle of friends we say horrible shit to each other on a regular basis and pretty much nothing is sacred. Im sure if someone tried to do gender zir what ever it would go over "great". A stranger being respectful sure Im only a dick when people are a dick first. Some stranger trying to force my language they can fuck right off. If im willing to verbally destroy a close friend about his absentee dad like I won't give a poser tranny a mean spirited roast.

 

[keksz]

are you going to ask for their ID

No, you're the exceptional one - of course if it looks like a girl, talks like a girl and acts like a girl you're going to call her a she. What happens on this forum is that we're used to people who put on a wig and a dress and look like drag queens, not actual transgendered people - in that case it's entirely fair to ask what should you do? accept their pronouns even though they are obviously dudes?

 

[Grisp]

No, you're the exceptional one - of course if it looks like a girl, talks like a girl and acts like a girl you're going to call her a she. What happens on this forum is that we're used to people who put on a wig and a dress and look like drag queens, not actual transgendered people - in that case it's entirely fair to ask what should you do? accept their pronouns even though they are obviously dudes?

"Imagine a lifelong buddy came up to you, and was like, "dude, if you could please use he/she/they from now on, I'd really appreciate it" and they wouldn't make a big drama out of it the few times you mess up while getting used to it, would you do it?"

This was the initial question. Anyways, I don't see what you gain from not using the persons preferred pronouns other than personal amusement for triggering them.
The question is misleading from the very start honestly, generally people in society refer to other people with the information they are given from them. As such, the question should actually be

"What are your legitimate reasons for not using a persons preferred pronouns?" Presuming of course that they are picking between he, she, or they.

 

[Pandinus Imperator]

@Grisp

If the person is trans but pre-transitioning, and corrects me with the clarification that they just haven't started transitioning, then sure I'll adjust my language. I'm just not going to humor a non-dysphoric male who wants to be called she for no sensible reason. Gender pronouns need to retain some meaning in my opinion.

Fake trans people are hurting people with gender dysphoria, who need resources to feel comfortable in their own skin, because it's harder for dysphoric people to be taken seriously when a man will just start calling himself a she and a lesbian for no reason. This is where I put my foot down.

But regarding the specific question from the OP, my answer would be "sure, no problem". The comment I posted about not humoring a person who doesn't "present" is an outdated opinion and, since then, I have become more accepting of a greater diversity of gender identities (as long as it's not a person without even the most mild form of gender dysphoria trying to convince others that they are trans when they just aren't). I'm actually not on Kiwi Farms to point and laugh at eccentric people; what I like about these forums is that they encourage civil debate because, due to their nature, no one wants to make an ass of themselves here. It's the polar opposite of tumblr, where you get mobbed for having an opinion, and that's why I like it.

 

[Lysol]

Anyways, I don't see what you gain from not using the persons preferred pronouns other than personal amusement for triggering them.

You don't gain anything. That's the point, you keep the ability to say whatever the fuck you want - it's a net loss to kowtow to other people's sensibilities if you don't agree with them.

 

[Grisp]

You don't gain anything. That's the point, you keep the ability to say whatever the fuck you want - it's a net loss to kowtow to other people's sensibilities if you don't agree with them.

You never lose the ability to "say whatever the fuck you want", this extreme belief that as soon as you CHOOSE to comply with someones request you lose your freedom is absolutely devoid of reason and any sort of deep thought.

Say that a friend of yours switches names to something unconventional? What if they want to go by 'flower'? Would you once again claim that your opinion on what is reasonable overrides their request to be called by what makes them comfortable/happy? I hope that you realize that when you are doing this you probably break the social contract that has presumably been established when you became friends. This is literally "Hey friend, can you do x?" and "I don't fully agree with your request that literally does not impact me in any way, fuck you"

Respond to me by personally answering the inquiries in your post that you proposed to us. You laid out those questions for a reason, so now explain your reason.

I'm actually unsure which ones you mean, so i'll reply to all of them. Two of them are supposed to be hard to answer though, I posted them to clarify how little of an actual reasonable argument there is to hold the opinion that my opposition has, and obviously I don't hold that position myself but whatever.

1. "Imagine a lifelong buddy came up to you, and was like, "dude, if you could please use he/she/they from now on, I'd really appreciate it" and they wouldn't make a big drama out of it the few times you mess up while getting used to it, would you do it?"

I would, think you should, and have done this. Not for a single second did the thought "Wait a minute, how logically and politically legitimate do I consider their deeply personal request to be?" My thoughts were literally just centered around how to best convey the fact that I accept them and support them. Again, this is a lifelong friend.

2. "What are your legitimate reasons for not using a persons preferred pronouns?" Presuming of course that they are picking between he, she, or they."

Since I posted this question to clarify my own argument I am not going to have a good reason.

The only argument I can think of right now is that the person is trying to gain acceptance as the opposite gender for intentionally evil reasons, gaining entry to the opposite genders locker rooms etc. But this argument is not in accordance with the initial statements nor questions so it doesn't even work for this discussion.



3. "If you meet a person, ask for their name and get "Kevin" as a reply, are you going to ask for their ID to prove that Kevin is their actual name? If not, why would you want proof for their genitals before you decide whether or not you should use the pronouns that they prefer?"

No, I would not, because I am not actually insane. If someone says that their name is Kevin I will call them Kevin. If someone says that they go by "she/her" pronouns I will refer to them with those. This almost never actually happens so it really isn't that hard, and if you are sincerely trying they will not care if you mess up in my experience.

People are going to think how they want to think. What you say to, call, and how you perceive others is up to you and you alone, and so is how you feel.

If someone decides that they are trans, they may request that you call them by their preferred pronouns, but how you respond is your decision and should be respected as such. Likewise, it's up to those who make the request how they respond to that decision. If you feel that way, then the disagreements of others will not invalidate it unless you invalidate it, yourself.

Make your own decisions, but don't try to make them for others.

I agree with 90% of this, and this is reasonable. The only thing I don't agree with is "but how you respond is your decision and should be respected as such."

If someone refuses to use someones preferred pronouns and cannot justify their reason for it then I will not necessary respect their decision. I won't try to force them to do it, but respect is something that is earned. And if their arguments are as weak as some of the people who responded to me then they will certainly not earn my respect.

 

[Lysol]

You never lose the ability to "say whatever the fuck you want", this extreme belief that as soon as you CHOOSE to comply with someones request you lose your freedom is absolutely devoid of reason and any sort of deep thought.

Say that a friend of yours switches names to something unconventional? What if they want to go by 'flower'? Would you once again claim that your opinion on what is reasonable overrides their request to be called by what makes them comfortable/happy? I hope that you realize that when you are doing this you probably break the social contract that has presumably been established when you became friends. This is literally "Hey friend, can you do x?" and "I don't fully agree with your request that literally does not impact me in any way, fuck you"

Okay jackass, if I choose not to, and don't want to, then what? I should do so anyway? That's called coercion, you fucking clown. My point is that if I don't want to, then I shouldn't be compelled to, and when folks like you come along and go "oh well just do it anyway" that's trying to coerce me to speak the way you want me to. Fuck off with this shit.

 

[keksz]

What are your preferred pronouns @Grisp?

 

[Gus]

I agree with 90% of this, and this is reasonable. The only thing I don't agree with is "but how you respond is your decision and should be respected as such."

If someone refuses to use someones preferred pronouns and cannot justify their reason for it then I will not necessary respect their decision. I won't try to force them to do it, but respect is something that is earned. And if their arguments are as weak as some of the people who responded to me then they will certainly not earn my respect.

You're misinterpreting the idea behind the word. Respected as in, regarded as that which is external to yourself, or the opinions of others. You respect that they have the right to think as they will.

 

[keksz]

you come along and go "oh well just do it anyway" that's trying to coerce me to speak the way you want me to

Now that I look at it even the poll answers at the top of the page are skewed, with the first option literally making fun of the second one, as if only a 'tard would ever pick it. Very unbiased.

 

[soryu]

I'll call them by whatever the prefer, but it's usually natural. The only people I'd have trouble with are the Tumblrinas because they focus too much on gender and it ends up being a wild card. Thankfully I haven't had to run into too many drama starters in real life, but internet world is a whole different platform.

 

[Grisp]

Okay jackass, if I choose not to, and don't want to, then what? I should do so anyway? That's called coercion, you fucking clown. My point is that if I don't want to, then I shouldn't be compelled to, and when folks like you come along and go "oh well just do it anyway" that's trying to coerce me to speak the way you want me to. Fuck off with this shit.

Whoa, calm down there buddy, you seem awfully upset at someone pointing out how your argument is illogical.

"Okay jackass, if I choose not to, and don't want to, then what? I should do so anyway?"
If you choose to not do something then you have made your choice, you have chosen to not call them by their preferred pronouns and as such have made a final choice.
I'm not sure if you simply phrased your text wrong or if you are stupid. If you have made your choice then well, you have made your choice.

"and when folks like you come along and go "oh well just do it anyway""

Like I have explicitly stated before, I would never try to force someone to call someone else by their pronouns, I would simply not respect them. I will say though, that gender is not determined by what biological sexual organs you have and as such makes your decision to presume to know their gender better than the person themselves is emotional, ignorant and silly.

"but-but, muh feelings say that these are the pronouns I should use for you???"

What are your preferred pronouns @Grisp?

SJW/Snowflake or Triggered/Millenial

You're misinterpreting the idea behind the word. Respected as in, regarded as that which is external to yourself, or the opinions of others. You respect that they have the right to think as they will.

My bad then, English isn't my native language so I was unsure of which of the meanings you intended.