Polish-Lithuanian Debate Thread

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14 de Mayo, 2019
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I saw someone post this hear ages ago and I want to know how accurate it is.

As a lad many years ago I learned that Poland-Lithuania was a Historical Good Guy (TM) because of having a crowned republic, religious tolerance, and I think a sort of humanist ideology. It would be lumped in with countries like the Dutch Republic and Swiss Confederation (still peak).

Of course I’ve since moved on to being a based Cossackchad.

So was Poland-Lithuania really an awful shithole?
 
No matter what anyone tells you, the liberum veto (a voting rule that allowed any member of the Sejm to force an immediate end to the current session and to nullify any legislation that had already been passed at the session if they shouted a certain phrase) was an extremely stupid parliamentary rule and the country struggled to effectively centralize in the face of aggressive neighbors.
 
Yeah all those are leftist shitholes unblessed by the Black Sun's UV light, unworthy of entry to Agartha.
 
I don't know about Poland-Lithuania, but Retro Poland is fucking boss.

 
I'm no expert so feel free to dismiss whatever I say but the Commonwealth was a shithole if you were the average serf, way worse than western European states. The state was never able to centralize and curb the nobles power like other states (one of the reasons for this is that the black death not being as impactful resulted in society not getting reshaped as much and the peasants not being able to gain more power and freedoms like in western European states, preserving the power of the nobility). It had super oppressive laws turning the peasants into slaves as outlined in the OP's image.

Over time, the nobility and magnates acquired more and more power to oppress the serfs and limit the monarchs power, they went from being legally obligated to work 1 day a week on the ruling Lords estates, to 2, then to even more, with the amount of obligated work for the lord being calculated based off of how much land the serf had to work on and the most extreme cases according to Wikipedia it got up to 12 days a week of mandatory labor for 1/3 of a Łan (The measurement varied but around 23 to 28 hectares = 1 Łan) so a serf would have to bring his family members to work the fields with him.

Rights and privilege acquired over time gave the nobility more power and wealth, and eventually led to the state's destruction. The 1496 Piotrków Statues limited the number of peasants able to move annually to 1 per village, granted tax reliefs and exclusivity to positions of power. The Nihil Novi act in 1505 prevented the monarch from enacting laws in most cases without the nobles consent. In 1520 the Toruń Privilege instituted a weekly mandatory day of labor for the serfs whereas previously it was just a couple of days a year and weakened the power of municipal courts over nobles if they committed a crime. They also had additional forms of mandatory labor on top of all of that such as the Powaba and Darmocha, where a noble could call peasants to work for however long they were needed.

The nobles didn't really give a shit, they got super rich off of exporting agricultural products to the rest of Europe while the State wasn't able to compete against its neighbours. The nobles and magnates had Folwarks, massive agricultural estates which they employed the serfs on. The Commonwealth was a breadbasket but the State didn't profit much off of that. Getting BTFO'd by the Swedes (killing a massive chunk of the population) and eventually getting partitioned was an unfortunate but unsurprising outcome. I remember reading a twitter thread covering how the eastern parts of the commonwealth outside of Poland and Lithuania weren't very profitable and that most of the State's revenue came from Mazovia, where the nobility was the weakest and poorest. The institution of the Liberum Veto to gain the nobles support during a war prevented any efforts to reform the state by allowing legislation to be vetoed by a single vote, additionally a Konfederacja which could not be vetoed could be formed in the Sejm to force through reforms, which was used by the surrounding powers to weaken the state and pass their own agendas, but eventually was used to pass the 1791 May Constitution.

Nie mówię o przeszłej Polszcze i Polakach. Znikło już i to państwo i to imię, jak znikło tyle innych w dziejach świata. Każdy z przeszłych Polaków ojczyznę sobie obrać powinien. Ja już jestem Rosjaninem na zawsze.

"I am not speaking of the past Poland and Poles. That state and that name have already vanished, just as so many others have vanished in the history of the world. Every one of the former Poles should choose a fatherland for himself. I am already a Russian forever."
- Stanisław Szczęsny Potocki. A Polish real and raw Russian noble in 1796, a year after the final partition. In 1791 he formed the Russian-backed Targowica Confederation which revolted against the King's efforts to unfuck the nation by reforming it and creating a constitution. It led to a war with Russia in 1792, which led to the 2nd and 3rd partitions and the end of the Commonwealth.

A good article covering all of these issues is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty

tl;dr Fuck the nobility
 
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It was a functionally dysfunctional State. The Mistake was the Kingdom of Poland selling way too many liberties too the various ethnically non polish nobles in exchange for fealty. Decisions which in a feudal context made sense but rapidly became a massive fucking problem as their neighbors formed functional states around central authority and national governments.

Among the many issues this caused was the landed nobility of the commonwealth became far too entrenched. It prevented the Monarchy from instituting reforms, such as Citizenship, making the entire population part of the nation and the monarchy rather then then part of their local suzerain, who ruled their little fiefs like plantation estates in the new world.

The end result was when Prussia, Austria and Sweden came knocking the central government had nothing but paper promises to throw at them and build a national army with. Made worse by the fact that any petty local tyrant could veto any effort too even deploy the national army on their own initiative. And Austria, Prussia, Sweden and Russia had plenty of money to bribe such persons to betray their country.

Blaming the Jews for this one is a non starter though. The reason the Polish Monarchy brought them in was because they literally could not trust their own court officials to not betray them. For good reason. They kept fucking betraying them. It wasn't even a question. Local aristocrats in the commonwealth actively and constantly embezzled state funds to enrich their local dynasties, became patsies for foreign enemies, and even threw their support behind invading armies if they felt it would get them ahead. The Monarchy using Jews to staff the central beaurocracy was a form of desperate necessity, and of course the traitorous nobles in the commonwealth immediately resorted to the usual blood libels to accuse the central government of being controlled by Jews.
 
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I'm no expert so feel free to dismiss whatever I say but the Commonwealth was a shithole if you were the average serf, way worse than western European states. The state was never able to centralize and curb the nobles power like other states (one of the reasons for this is that the black death not being as impactful resulted in society not getting reshaped as much and the peasants not being able to gain more power and freedoms like in western European states, preserving the power of the nobility). It had super oppressive laws turning the peasants into slaves as outlined in the OP's image.
You know, I’d seen the map and heard the story of how Poland escaped the Black Death by effective quarantine and the Death causing the fall of serfdom, but I never put two and two together with Poland and serfdom. That’s interesting.
 
If anything, what happened to the Polish and Lithuanian Commonwealth is instructive for what is going to happen to Europe as the noble class betrays the people and nation for economic and political advantage in exchange for aggrandizing foreign peoples and governments. Europe is going to inevitably find itself in a Three Way struggle for survival just like Poland.

Americans to the West

Russians to the East,

And Turks to the South

And against this assault on all sides, it will be riven by internal struggle as the elites in the nation are constantly at each other throats while a toxic mix of ethnic grievances prevent any cohesive national policy forming.

The only differentiating issue for the EU when compared to Poland is the Americans replacing Prussia and Austria. The Turks and Russia will just be a return to form. Europe is in for a really shit time in the next century.
 
Hellish but (somehow) better than Russia, Habsburg Hungary, and the Ottomans. Serfdom and slavery are just civilizational killers as there's an infinite supply of low cost labor that stifles all innovation.
 
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