Netflix's "Barbarians" - Quintili Vare, legiones redde!

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Too much. Never worked out well.
Ha, I wonder why. 🙄

I remember reading some quote that said something along the lines of, Germans just aren't meant to be leaders. They are good at following others and working themselves to death, someone else has to lead them.

Their last (and only) native great leader was named Bismarck and died 122 years ago. Second-to-last if we count Arminius here, and look where that got him: his family disowned him because they wanted to be Roman clients, the Germans killed him because he seemed over ambitious, and most Germans traded with Rome, so being involved with him would always be a problem no matter what. The other last time Germany was not a fucking mess, was when a certain Austrian individual took charge and dragged the country out of the gutter and into the world stage.

As much as I enjoy German culture and their history, I think it's a bitter truth.
 
If they were better they wouldn't have failed. They were just barely good enough to conquer France.

Found the butthurt kraut.

On a more serious note, the Germanic tribes won at Teutoberg Forest because of two primary factors.

1. Arminius was classically educated and IIRC, served in the Roman auxiliaries for a time. He knew how the Romans thought and more importantly, how they fought. Naturally, he exploited this to the fullest extent possible.

2. Sheer dumb luck. If Teutoberg Forest wasn't such a massive defeat for the Romans that it was a cultural shockwave, they probably would have pushed further into Germania once Arminius and Augustus Caesar were both dead and the incident faded from memory. Had Arminius lost or even if he won without having inflicted the massive rates of Roman casualties, chances are Germania would've been fully conquered over a period of several years.

Britannia was conquered and it took a few tries to get there. Julius Caesar's initial expeditions were more of a glorified side trip during the Gallic Wars. Claudius Caesar was able to bring Britain into the Empire thanks to his generals such as Aulus Plautius and this was further solidified by Julius Agricola later on.

By the time Hadrian ordered his wall to be built, Rome was already at their very height in the Pax Romana and figured it was much more practical to keep the Picts out of Britannia and set up small trade outposts in Ireland as opposed to a full conquest of Hibernia.

If Armininus hadn't fully knocked it out of the park on the first try at Teutoberg, it's likely that the Romans would have pushed further and conquered Germania eventually. It wasn't so much that he won the battle but that the victory came with massive attrition for the Roman forces.
 
I remember reading some quote that said something along the lines of, Germans just aren't meant to be leaders. They are good at following others and working themselves to death, someone else has to lead them.
Ignoring of course that the vast majority of European monarchs have been Germans. Of course the Germans cheated by having more independent rulers in the Holy Roman Empire than there was in the rest of Europe.

Also the Germanic kingdoms post the fall of Rome shaped the map of Europe far more than the Roman Empire ever did
europe-7th-century.jpg

With the fall of Rome you can pretty much begin to see the kingdoms of Spain, France, England, Germany, and Italy taking shape
 
Wouldn't be a KF thread without autistic slapfighting.

Anyway I watched it & it's actually pretty good. No woke fuckery as far as I could see other than more women involved in fighting than there likely would have been, but it's known Germanic women would attend the battles to support their men & were probably armed in case shit went badly so whatever.

No black Romans.

Relatively accurate uniforms & clothing for both the Romans & natives (refreshing to see the the barbarians wearing colourful clothing & looking clean) with a few exceptions.

There were a few liberties taken (Arminius wasn't adopted by Varus irl, the fire traps during the battle are totally fictional) but it was for dramatic effect rather than to push an agenda.
 
Perhaps a kraut kiwi can confirm, but is it correct that they are speaking in High German? looks like it would have been fairly accurate at that time so that gives it another good dose of authenticity.
 
Well you can blame Tacitus for that, he pretty much created the "Romans evil, Germanic tribes good" narrative in his book, in 99AD. "Germania" (Land of the Germani) is the book partially responsible for the idea of the superiority of the Nordic/Germanic "races" because it describes the Germanic peoples as actual "better" people who just happen to have inferior technology.
This kind of baffles me, cause reading it, I don't feel like Tacitus is giving the Germans that much praise. It's not so much a "Romans evil, Germans good", he oftentimes lambasts them for being primitive drunkards and thugs. He does praise their strength (especially in battle) and some of their virtues, but here, too, he points out their weaknesses at times.

For instance, in Chapter 4, he states that the Germans are great for a wild attack, but their strength is not suitable for prolonged work. In general, he seems to describe the Germans and their lives pretty fairly, but there are some comments here and there that seem less benevolent. In chapter 14 and 15, again, he calls out that the Germans are lazy and that they'd rather go to war to murder someone and steal whatever they need then to labor to make it themselves.

Frankly, it appears to me that some of the supposedly positive things within the book are actually neutral or even critical of the Germans, but to a modern reader it might seem like benevolent "noble and pure savage" stuff, caus a modern reader lacks the background of cultural attitude towards "barbarians" and what made a barbarian a barbarian from a Roman's point of view.

In Chapter 5, Tacitus writes that the Germans barely use silver or gold and if you find a container made of such metal, it's mainly a gift from a foreigner and it's used like it was made of clay. That is pretty clearly Tacitus taking the piss out of the primitive Germans for not even knowing the true value of such metals, it's "pearls before the pigs" so to speak. He further elaborates that only those that have been civilized by trade with Romans, who know that precious metals are... well... precious. And still, he continues, they prefer silver coins over gold coins, since it's more suitable to their humble needs.
In a modern perception, them not fussing over gold might be a sign of purity and pragmatism, to a Roman reader of the time, it might have been a rather clear cut criticism of their barbarism.

Another more veiled criticism might be Tacitus pointing out that the German tribes don't have cities, instead they live close to forests, wells or rivers (he doesn't say this, but compare it to the wonders of aqueducts in Roman cities or their elaborate infrastructure in general, even with smaller settlements). He openly criticises how Germans build their small settlements (directly comparing them to Roman ones of similar size) and points out that everything is made of wood, nothing made of stone and he calls them inelegant and artless.

There's stuff that gets praised, for sure, but there's oftentimes caveats with that, too. The German's prowess with weapons for instance is tampered when you consider that Tacitus explains that they have barely any armored fighters, their spears use thin blades of small size at their tips, that the Germans fight in family-groups and not as an organized army, that they are easily blinded by their rage (and how that can be taken advantage of). It's basically an elaborate description of Germans being great warriors but shitty soldiers that can't stand their ground against a well-disciplined, well-equipped Roman army.

One thing he really praises is that women are untainted by theatre plays (then again, that might be another jab at the primitive Barbarians, who don't even know theatres?), raunchy feasts or the exchange of secret letters (again: Maybe "lol Germans can't read"?). The one thing he seems to praise is how big of a deal faithfulness for women is. So yeah, there are words of praise that take the piss out of Rome by extension (or some other neighbors to Rome, for that matter), but overall, that's just a small part of his book, I'd say.

tl;dr: To say Tacitus' book is a loveletter to the German tribes is an overstatement. He doesn't uniformly praise them and even some of his praise seems like a thinly veiled jab. There is some stuff where he outright calls them uncultured savages and a lot of instances where such an attitude might be hidden behind nice words.

Overall, it's a Roman writing about Barbarians, so while he might have praise for some aspects of their lives, the superior position of Rome above all is what this text is most likely trying to underline, even despite the few instances of him praising Germans, they are vastly outnumbered.
 
So, started watching it, 4 episodes in. Looking really good so far, I'm impressed.
 
Binged it in a couple of days. No cartoonishly powerful ginger autist with pigtails, 0/10.

For a Netflix "Original", it's very good. I liked little touches like the Romans speaking Latin while the barbarians use the dub of choice (or at least they did in English). About the only part that left me scratching my head was the pseudo-plot point with Thusnelda's little brother.

I guess being left retarded by a traumatic brain injury that should have killed you makes you develop a hotline to Odin. Neat!
 
but I'm sure they will focus solely on the poor barbarians fighting against big bad Rome and how it's totally the same as antifa or some shit. They were dirty savages who constantly killed each other and performed human sacrifice for thousands of years and badly needed civilizing by based chad Romans.
thats just roman propaganda. Its just another war of conquest and well it didnt work out so well for the romans.



but it's known Germanic women would attend the battles to support their men & were probably armed in case shit went badly so whatever.
they are all to well armed.

Perhaps a kraut kiwi can confirm, but is it correct that they are speaking in High German? looks like it would have been fairly accurate at that time so that gives it another good dose of authenticity.
Its high german, but thats the problem, its a low german region-
 
Its high german, but thats the problem, its a low german region-
Eh, I'll take what I can get. Having the Germanic tribes speaking German and the Romans speaking Latin is well worth it.

I am not entirely sure I lked Thusnelda's character development, but other than that, I thought that the show was pretty good.
 
Wouldn't be a KF thread without autistic slapfighting.

Anyway I watched it & it's actually pretty good. No woke fuckery as far as I could see other than more women involved in fighting than there likely would have been, but it's known Germanic women would attend the battles to support their men & were probably armed in case shit went badly so whatever.

No black Romans.

Relatively accurate uniforms & clothing for both the Romans & natives (refreshing to see the the barbarians wearing colourful clothing & looking clean) with a few exceptions.

There were a few liberties taken (Arminius wasn't adopted by Varus irl, the fire traps during the battle are totally fictional) but it was for dramatic effect rather than to push an agenda.
One of the few actual proofs historical European Netflix shows are superior than Anglosphere history shows in everything.
 
I didn't like it too much. It was VERY boring and some scenes not very well directed. At least it was pretty realistic. Hopefully the next season is better.

No black Romans.
Unrealistic PC bullshit.
Romans were filthy, useless niggers just like modern day Italians.


About the only part that left me scratching my head was the pseudo-plot point with Thusnelda's little brother.
That part caught me off guard because the writers showed complete understanding of ancient Germanic culture and religion.

An element of ancient Germanic religion was a belief that travelling to the realm of the dead and then being brought back to life would give that person secret, esoteric knowledge.

Other scenes in the series that show a clear understanding of ancient Germanic society include:
  • When the old chief drowns himself in the sacred bog as kings fallen from power may have sacrificed themselves
  • Thusnelda (woman) being a shaman
  • Husband and wife sitting next to each other in each their high seat
  • Thusnelda constantly trying to instigate the Germanic men into battling the Romans (it was the woman's duty to call the family into seeking revenge)
 
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