Modern Education - Are the cracklets alright?

[pwincess fwuffypants]

I guess it depends on who you are and what you want for the kids that you force to attend. School isn't meant to teach what it's supposed to, and it exists primarily as a jobs program and a fiefdom of vassals that serve as a reliable voting block. Kids are primarily there as props to justify the teachers' union's existence. No more, no less. No kids, no teachers, no unions, no voting block.

What kids ultimately teach each other in school is brutal conformity where stepping out of line is punished very harshly. This is by design. Kids are meant to be scared of standing out, scared of excelling and meant to be rewarded for carefully copying what everyone else is doing no matter how goofy or stupid it is.

School in general is a miserable brutal place and I'm surprised not that there are kids who snap and go on shooting rampages but that there are so few of them, relative to the misery.

We also poorly compensate and reward teachers, and even the reward system is fundamentally fractured. Basically, the best people don't want to go into teaching for 1000 valid reasons and attempts to use structure and incentives to get the most out of people who will accept shit wages fell flat because the classroom works best when it is a more organic than mechanistic environment.

You get what you pay for, and that's why most people who are in their late 20s and younger are p darn braindead.

The best aren't supposed to go into teaching. It's welfare for people who have a work ethic and can show up on time but can't really make it in the real world. It's meant to lower the unemployment rate and provide a reliable voting block to politicians that cater to the interests of teachers. Because it's primarily welfare, the pay never will be good, it'll be better than sit on your ass welfare, but it's supposed to be low enough to motivate those who can to find something better to do.

You do get what you pay for. The system doesn't really care that they're braindead. They want people who are just smart enough to follow orders but not smart enough to question them or predict where it's all going. They want cattle they can tell to go to the slaughterhouse and that will cheerfully comply.

 

[queerape]

Education needs to be better integrated with work and experience. School should not preclude you from full time work as well, rather the two should be brought closer together. In fact, students should have access to class credit for paid work in a relevant field, this could help so many avoid debt, fund employment and could even lift people out of the cycle of destitution.

 

[Slap47]

Education needs to be better integrated with work and experience. School should not preclude you from full time work as well, rather the two should be brought closer together. In fact, students should have access to class credit for paid work in a relevant field, this could help so many avoid debt, fund employment and could even lift people out of the cycle of destitution.

I don't know about the USA but most schools here have these programs. What's odd is that they're only made available to fuckups when everybody could benefit from them.

This is more than an education problem. The entire society needs to reevaluate the trades and give them a higher status.

 

[wylfım]

The entire society needs to reevaluate the trades and give them a higher status.

Most people should not be going to college. Not the top 50%, not even the top 70%. At most college should be reserved for top 10-20% of people who can actually do something useful like becoming an engineer, doctor, lawyer, thinker, etc. When people start wanting to go to college for "the [social] experience" rather than the education, something has gone horribly wrong.
For the rest of the people, trade school, starting their own business, or just starting to climb up the corporate ladder, are just as important and give them a chance to develop skills they will use, plus making money. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you aren't cut out for college— it doesn't mean you're not gonna be successful, it just means you won't be successful in a narrow set of criteria that most non-intellectuals probably don't even care about anyways.

 

[pwincess fwuffypants]

Education needs to be better integrated with work and experience. School should not preclude you from full time work as well, rather the two should be brought closer together. In fact, students should have access to class credit for paid work in a relevant field, this could help so many avoid debt, fund employment and could even lift people out of the cycle of destitution.

Cynically, those youngsters would also be competing with everyone else in the job market and making the unemployment rate higher than it otherwise would be. Not that it matters these days, they just outright lie about all those numbers, they just make them up. But back in the old days, they were somewhat more honest about how they goalseeked the numbers. Part of the reason they kept kids in school so long was to keep them out of the job market for as long as they could.

I do agree, it would be better to get them out of pointless busywork and doing real things, and do not think that the kids don't know what you're doing to them or don't resent it deeply either. They do.

Even the Soviet Union only educated most kids to the 8th grade level or so, and once you washed out or opted out of college prep courses, you were done with school and sent off to work at the factory or wherever else they assigned you to. Then again the Soviet Union did collapse, so maybe they're not the best role model to emulate either. It's a screwed up world out there. Be wary of bright ideas. Especially from me.

Most people should not be going to college. Not the top 50%, not even the top 70%. At most college should be reserved for top 10-20% of people who can actually do something useful like becoming an engineer, doctor, lawyer, thinker, etc. When people start wanting to go to college for "the [social] experience" rather than the education, something has gone horribly wrong.
For the rest of the people, trade school, starting their own business, or just starting to climb up the corporate ladder, are just as important and give them a chance to develop skills they will use, plus making money. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you aren't cut out for college— it doesn't mean you're not gonna be successful, it just means you won't be successful in a narrow set of criteria that most non-intellectuals probably don't even care about anyways.

That's the whole point of having college entrance exams. Either standards for going to college have slipped greatly or kids are getting better at gaming the exam scores. My money is on the former, colleges really don't give a shit about anything other than milking these students for their money and then spitting them out with no marketable skills.

 

[wylfım]

That's the whole point of having college entrance exams. Either standards for going to college have slipped greatly or kids are getting better at gaming the exam scores. My money is on the former, colleges really don't give a shit about anything other than jerking off these students for their money and then spitting them out with no marketable skills.

Please dont doublepost my eyes ;=;

With that out of the way, yep its definitely the first one, as long as you're a semi-breathing vegetable you can get into college these days. Scores mean less than they ever have, GPA can be hand-waved away, and colleges are starting to make essays "optional." In other words, its harder to NOT get in to college than ever before in history.

 

[White bubblegum]

Most people should not be going to college. Not the top 50%, not even the top 70%. At most college should be reserved for top 10-20% of people who can actually do something useful like becoming an engineer, doctor, lawyer, thinker, etc. When people start wanting to go to college for "the [social] experience" rather than the education, something has gone horribly wrong.
For the rest of the people, trade school, starting their own business, or just starting to climb up the corporate ladder, are just as important and give them a chance to develop skills they will use, plus making money. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you aren't cut out for college— it doesn't mean you're not gonna be successful, it just means you won't be successful in a narrow set of criteria that most non-intellectuals probably don't even care about anyways.

What of the people who just want a degree so they can become wageslaves? Establishing trade schools for accounting/marketing/whatever?

Please dont doublepost my eyes ;=;

With that out of the way, yep its definitely the first one, as long as you're a semi-breathing vegetable you can get into college these days. Scores mean less than they ever have, GPA can be hand-waved away, and colleges are starting to make essays "optional." In other words, its harder to NOT get in to college than ever before in history.

A problem I saw in my high school, not sure about yours, is that a lot of people wanted to go to top colleges. Everyone wanted to go to UIC, U of I, ivy league schools, Northwestern, and thought anything less was a bust.
Sure, reach for the stars, but you're probably going to be a wageslave anyways.

Beyond that, I don't think our education system promotes free thinking, knowledge, and exchange of ideas. But I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

[Webby's Boyfriend]

Maybe I'll get the D because I am a racial minority from the underclass (which would land me an A+) yet I'm also a cis male (normally, it would result in a straight F).

 

[Guts Gets Some]

When you peek into your old elementary school in 2018 when you pass by it on the weekend out of curiosity, and still see pictures of Obama hanging on the walls of kindergarten classes... yeah, the problem becomes clear: the teachers.

And they haven't changed since I was a kid.

I went to school with someone up to until high school, who didn't even know how to read until at least 8th grade. Why was he passed? Because none of my elementary school teachers wanted to deal with his extreme personality another year.

 

[vanilla_pepsi_head]

Grouping kids by age instead of ability always seemed especially stupid to me, but what do I know.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Quietly shuffling sexual-predator teachers around as opposed to exposing and terminating them, but what do I know?

Spoiler

...​

 

[Wallace]

Here's an interesting paper I just read on the rapidly-inflating cost of colleges. Briefly:

• Because the Charity-status ( 501(c)(3) )of Colleges in America depends on more-than-half of their students being unable to afford the education (read: “receiving financial aid”)
• That Charity-status protects the Investment Returns of College Endowments from Uncle Sam & the IRS
• Investment Returns Compound over time, and there is no more powerful force on Earth — anyone not playing the game to maximize Compound-returns will lose to everyone who is.
• Investment Returns already generate more revenue than undergrad tuition income at: Princeton (911% more), Harvard (529% more), Yale (254% more), MIT (118% more), Stanford (115% more), Brown (29% more), Duke (13% more), Dartmouth (9% more), and U Chicago (6% more)
• Undergrad tuition brings in just 10%-20% of total revenue at the Ivy League / Top-10 schools not listed above. Undergrad Tuition is not more than a quarter of revenue at any of these schools.
• Thus: if Colleges want to keep their Investment Returns tax-free, Tuition MUST remain unaffordable for at least 50% of undergrads

This is a major reason why the cost of college has increased by an order of magnitude of their last few decades. I suspect similar schemes are in place for healthcare and the cost of homes.

 

[Slap47]

Here's an interesting paper I just read on the rapidly-inflating cost of colleges. Briefly:

• Because the Charity-status ( 501(c)(3) )of Colleges in America depends on more-than-half of their students being unable to afford the education (read: “receiving financial aid”)
• That Charity-status protects the Investment Returns of College Endowments from Uncle Sam & the IRS
• Investment Returns Compound over time, and there is no more powerful force on Earth — anyone not playing the game to maximize Compound-returns will lose to everyone who is.
• Investment Returns already generate more revenue than undergrad tuition income at: Princeton (911% more), Harvard (529% more), Yale (254% more), MIT (118% more), Stanford (115% more), Brown (29% more), Duke (13% more), Dartmouth (9% more), and U Chicago (6% more)
• Undergrad tuition brings in just 10%-20% of total revenue at the Ivy League / Top-10 schools not listed above. Undergrad Tuition is not more than a quarter of revenue at any of these schools.
• Thus: if Colleges want to keep their Investment Returns tax-free, Tuition MUST remain unaffordable for at least 50% of undergrads

This is a major reason why the cost of college has increased by an order of magnitude of their last few decades. I suspect similar schemes are in place for healthcare and the cost of homes.

The USA is also the only country where so many people go to college.

Europeans brag about their education being cheap but they have strictly rationed post-secondary. Their primary and secondary systems are tiered and only the highest tier is actually able to access the the cheap education. It's so rationed that they don't even have enough space for these 1st tier students and so their governments have to spend an ungodly fortune sending people abroad to the USA & Canada to study at community colleges.

One thing they get right though is that these 2nd and 3rd tier guys get access to trade schools.

It'd be interesting to see why Canada has much cheaper education despite having a similar situation to the USA.

 

[Wallace]

The USA is also the only country where so many people go to college.

Europeans brag about their education being cheap but they have strictly rationed post-secondary. Their primary and secondary systems are tiered and only the highest tier is actually able to access the the cheap education. It's so rationed that they don't even have enough space for these 1st tier students and so have to spend an ungodly fortune sending people abroad to the USA & Canada to study at community colleges.

One thing they get right though is that these 2nd and 3rd tier guys get access to trade schools.

It'd be interesting to see why Canada has much cheaper education despite having a similar situation to the USA.

What are the job prospects for people without a college degree? Here in the US, they're not good. Can you make a sustainable living working a job that doesn't require a college degree in Europe or Canada?

 

[pwincess fwuffypants]

I hate the school system. I go to a private school and it's still terrible. I especially hate how everyone perpetuates the idea that if you aren't taking all AP classes and using all of your spare time to do the homework you're assigned in those classes (this is not an exaggeration, people actually whine about having to spend all afternoon and all night doing assignments) then you're clinically retarded and will never go anywhere in life.

But the food's good, so it's fine.

Private schools fall into two categories. Foaming at the mouth hyper-religious madrassas that are primarily there to prepare you for a future in the seminary to become a pastor or hyper-competitive sweatshops that exist to propel you with laser like precision into the most prestigious college they can get you into. Either their reputation rests on how pure their religious instruction is or it rests on how effective they are at getting their graduates into prestigious colleges. At least they exist to educate you in certain narrow ways, as opposed to just fucking you up psychologically. They do that too, but at least out of sheer self-interest they care about educating you.

Are either bad? Again, it depends on who you are, what you want, and what you came here to this realm to do. Do you want to become a pastor? Do you want to go to college and do the kind of work that a college degree binds you to? Do you have better than normal academic aptitude? The answer will be different for every person. If you're a youngun, you probably don't even know and your parents are busy preselecting futures for you based on their own twisted narratives in their heads and you're just a puppet in their theater.

My advice, based on not knowing anything about you is, stay the fuck out of debt. Whatever else happens, not having loads of debt will allow you to adapt and change in this highly chaotic and volatile environment you're in.

What are the job prospects for people without a college degree? Here in the US, they're not good. Can you make a sustainable living working a job that doesn't require a college degree in Europe or Canada?

https://www.youtube.com/user/ONBOARDTECH333KMD

This guy makes $135/hr or so doing auto diagnostics. He's an extreme example though, the average read codes and throw parts monkey makes less than half that an hour. But if you have a good reputation, you don't need any degree to start doing the work.

 

[Slap47]

What are the job prospects for people without a college degree? Here in the US, they're not good. Can you make a sustainable living working a job that doesn't require a college degree in Europe or Canada?

There is an enormous amount of jobs that you can get through cert programs, technical schools and apprenticeships. Plumber, oil work, electrician, sanitation worker, etc.

Despite this, college is seen as the only way forward. It's so ingrained in the culture that states have passed laws requiring people to apply for colleges to graduate highschool. New Mexico is trying to do that now.

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=10473

 

[wylfım]

There is an enormous amount of jobs that you can get through cert programs, technical schools and apprenticeships. Plumber, oil work, electrician, sanitation worker, etc.

Despite this, college is seen as the only way forward. It's so ingrained in the culture that states have passed laws requiring people to apply for colleges to graduate highschool. New Mexico is trying to do that now.

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=10473

You now need a college degree to work as a secretary. I see no way this will backfire, none at all.
The push towards "everyone needs a college degree" is ridiculously unsustainable, and just devalues an actual education, because the schools need to start appealing towards their primary demographics who don't want to be there, or aren't smart enough to be there.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

There is an enormous amount of jobs that you can get through cert programs, technical schools and apprenticeships. Plumber, oil work, electrician, sanitation worker, etc.

Despite this, college is seen as the only way forward. It's so ingrained in the culture that states have passed laws requiring people to apply for colleges to graduate highschool. New Mexico is trying to do that now.

There's a high school near me that has a vocational fast track. You can get a head start on your HVAC cert or learn to be an auto mechanic, etc.

It is, for whatever reason, meant for the dumb fuckup kids and students typically get recommended to attend there as some kind of punishment. Kinda weird, considering their graduates probably make more money than the average kid on the college track.

The thing is, though, in the US you're pretty much going to need a college degree unless you work in the trades. And even then you might need to have one if you want to advance in your career to the managerial level. I don't know why we fetishize college degrees so much, but it is what it is.

 

[God of Nothing]

School quality largely depends on where you live. Somewhere rich, public K-12 schools are surprisingly baller with a minimum amount of politics because youngsters are seen as too retarded to understand the simplest of social and geopolitical issues, which most of them are and will still be in their adulthood. Highschool is always shit wherever you go because of teenage hormones and the rise of teachers spouting their political opinions at you.

As someone who heard more than enough politically and opinion charged lectures in their college years, the teachers are without a doubt the absolute fucking worst thing in school beyond just the regular structural issues. A surprising amount of them are detached from reality and complete hypocrites who preach love and understanding yet have none for those who believe in something different than them. These fuckers will try and brainwash you to think you need to stay longer, take classes you don't need, and believe in economic systems that are complete nonsense. The best classes I've ever had were with professors who knew to keep their politics away from their subject matter unless absolutely relevant to a lesson, which often amounted to try and understand instead of judge. The absolute worst were humanities and lesser so those grey area classes that could apply to any major if slightly relevant. I remember the most reasonable political conversation I've ever had while taking basic freshman composition being one I had with a dude bro football player about how pretty much everything course-unrelated we read over was tantamount to propaganda. Had that tall bulky motherfucker pinned as a retard at first but stepped out of that class holding him in a higher regard than I held our professor.

If these are the majority of people teaching our brightest minds, our society is fucked.

 

[Slap47]

You now need a college degree to work as a secretary. I see no way this will backfire, none at all.
The push towards "everyone needs a college degree" is ridiculously unsustainable, and just devalues an actual education, because the schools need to start appealing towards their primary demographics who don't want to be there, or aren't smart enough to be there.

Thats the thing though. The highschool system is dysfunctional so the only way to know if some stranger isn't retarded is through immigration or through college.

You can't fuck around with hiring people - firing them can be a pain so you can't take risks and do trials to see if people have common sense.