Marvel Cinematic Universe

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gobbogobb dijo:
Here's a question: how much of that bad performance was because Black Widow was basically useless for the entire avengers saga?

I can't think of a single conflict they faced in any of the movies that was suited to her talents.
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I think her character kinda filled an unnecessary niche in the MCU, BW isn't super-powered, so you can't really use her for big Avengers-level threats, and Cap, Falcon..etc not only already exist for the the smaller level espionage shit, but they're also more marketable characters to kids, being more colorful and actually possessing a fucking funnybone and more than a milligram of charisma.

I also think the only reason they're making this movie is just to have something to reduce the pressure on Phase 4, I also think that's why they laid out the roadmap so far into the future too..
 
Yeah I understand that but they made sure Captain America had something to do in every movie. I mean he got to be Captain Thor at least. Falcon might be an OG avenger but let's be honest he's Junior varsity at best.
Hawkeye has the same problem TBH but at least he gets exploding arrows and stuff to knock the aliens down.

Endgame in particular ran into the problem where it was the cosmic heroes plus iron Man and everybody else was just along for the ride.
 
gobbogobb dijo:
Yeah I understand that but they made sure Captain America had something to do in every movie. I mean he got to be Captain Thor at least. Falcon might be an OG avenger but let's be honest he's Junior varsity at best.
Hawkeye has the same problem TBH but at least he gets exploding arrows and stuff to knock the aliens down.
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Well you just said it, indestructible shields, mystical hammers, mini missile arrays, cool trick arrows..etc are things Disney can use to sell toys and merch and get millenial tugboats at a primo fucking rate.

Even taking ScarJo out of the equation, what is Black Widow's selling point as a superhero? Almost anything good you can say (and there's lots) will point you towards simply taking her out of the MCU and more into a Jason Bourne-type spy series.

Neither the character, nor the Movie Universe serve each other well imo. Add in ScarJo managing to make the character as bland as fuck and you get the reason Marvel killed her off.

(Also she had a big-ish role in Avengers Rise of Ultron, and that movie was my 2nd worst Marvel movie)
gobbogobb dijo:
Endgame in particular ran into the problem where it was the cosmic heroes plus iron Man and everybody else was just along for the ride.
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Fully agreed.
 
gobbogobb dijo:
Hawkeye has the same problem TBH but at least he gets exploding arrows and stuff to knock the aliens down.

Endgame in particular ran into the problem where it was the cosmic heroes plus iron Man and everybody else was just along for the ride.
Presiona para expandir...

She was basically the Team Mom who never got her time to shine and instead got stuffed into the fridge so that the butterface could get his useless family back.
I could understand if it was like...Scott or something but him?


neural dijo:
Well you just said it, indestructible shields, mystical hammers, mini missile arrays, cool trick arrows..etc are things Disney can use to sell toys and merch and get millenial tugboats at a primo fucking rate.

Even taking ScarJo out of the equation, what is Black Widow's selling point as a superhero? Almost anything good you can say (and there's lots) will point you towards simply taking her out of the MCU and more into a Jason Bourne-type spy series.

Neither the character, nor the Movie Universe serve each other well imo. Add in ScarJo managing to make the character as bland as fuck and you get the reason Marvel killed her off.

(Also she had a big-ish role in Avengers Rise of Ultron, and that movie was my 2nd worst Marvel movie)
Fully agreed.
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Flopeye was also in Ultron and lest we forget contributed to the worst plot this side of the farm from The Walking Dead: Hey here's his family lets hide out here teehee oh bye Thor see you 3 years from now.

Also people were pretty upset that she didn't get any representation in the merchandise. Sadly it was during Floptron.

Unfortunately I can't explain why we didn't get Wasp, Scarlet Witch, or She Hulk first. But they went with Widow.
 
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neural dijo:
I think her character kinda filled an unnecessary niche in the MCU, BW isn't super-powered, so you can't really use her for big Avengers-level threats, and Cap, Falcon..etc not only already exist for the the smaller level espionage shit, but they're also more marketable characters to kids, being more colorful and actually possessing a fucking funnybone and more than a milligram of charisma.

I also think the only reason they're making this movie is just to have something to reduce the pressure on Phase 4, I also think that's why they laid out the roadmap so far into the future too..
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They can bring her back to life in the last season of SJWs of Shield. They're working on time travel too. Then they'll end up with an all female cast.
 
The only MCU films I'm interested in at this point is any of the Spider-Man movies (especially with what happened in Far From Home), the Guardians movies, Doctor Strange, and whatever the MCU is doing with the Fantastic Four.

Otherwise I am meh at worst and cautiously optimistic at best (mainly in regards to Thor 4 which could be good given Thor 3 was a great movie but I'll wait and see)
 
neural dijo:
Even taking ScarJo out of the equation, what is Black Widow's selling point as a superhero?
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If you're talking solely about her powerset, the answer is "not much." I do think she's an important component to the Avengers because you absolutely need some T&A in these fucking films, but also because you need grounded characters to balance out and give scale to the grandiose characters. Think of the Avengers like lemonade. Iron Man, Thor and Captain America are sugar. Sugar is great, sugar is amazing, but you wouldn't just dump a pile of sugar into a glass of water and drink it because that would be gross. You need the sour bitterness of lemon juice to balance out the sweetness of the sugar. Not a lot of lemon, mind you, but just a little. Black Widow is the lemon. She doesn't overpower the films, but rather she's just there to add that touch of bitterness to balance out the sweetness and make the lemonade we call The Avengers.
 
Stab You in the Back dijo:
If you're talking solely about her powerset, the answer is "not much." I do think she's an important component to the Avengers because you absolutely need some T&A in these fucking films, but also because you need grounded characters to balance out and give scale to the grandiose characters. Think of the Avengers like lemonade. Iron Man, Thor and Captain America are sugar. Sugar is great, sugar is amazing, but you wouldn't just dump a pile of sugar into a glass of water and drink it because that would be gross. You need the sour bitterness of lemon juice to balance out the sweetness of the sugar. Not a lot of lemon, mind you, but just a little. Black Widow is the lemon. She doesn't overpower the films, but rather she's just there to add that touch of bitterness to balance out the sweetness and make the lemonade we call The Avengers.
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The Hulk could do that though before Marvel turned the whole cast into frat boys.

I don't hate BW but compared to other female Avengers they could have used like She Hulk,Wasp,Scarlet Witch and pre 2014 Captain Marvel she's kinda lame.
 
Yeah I don't hate the black widow character at all, when you find a but for the story they went for she just didn't work.

and honestly I feel for anyone who has to write for the hulk in the MCU. He's either going to be a worthless strong mad dude, or he's going to be Superman levels of deus ex machina when it comes to problem solving within the plot.

I have a bad feeling if they run with Adam warlock in guardians 3 they'll have the same problem
 
Hulk has been fucked up from the beginning no thanks to Edward Norton's god complex. He's also become comic relief.
 
It's probably the best way to use him tbh.

I mean what are the alternatives? Hulk sucker punches Thanos and knocks his head clean off?

Sucker Punch and Thanos one shots hulk?

Hulk does funny stuff that doesn't really matter but gets a laugh out of the audience?
 
I'm a little concerned about Spider-man, they could easily do a good finale, but seeing how greedy and woke Disney is, they might attempt to rip-off Into the Spider-verse for the third film and add Miles into the story, so that Peter dies at the end and Miles is the next Spider-man, just for Disney and its defenders will virtue-signal on Twitter for months about "the first black Spiderman".
 
friedshrimp dijo:
I'm a little concerned about Spider-man, they could easily do a good finale, but seeing how greedy and woke Disney is, they might attempt to rip-off Into the Spider-verse for the third film and add Miles into the story, so that Peter dies at the end and Miles is the next Spider-man, just for Disney and its defenders will virtue-signal on Twitter for months about "the first black Spiderman".
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Tbf they kinda have to. Have you seen Tom Holland? Hes English so that hairline isn't gonna last I'm afraid
 
Don't know about the main continuity, but he's recently appeared in part 2 of Jim Starlin and Alan Davis's Thanos trilogy, Thanos: The Infinity Conflict.

CheezzyMach dijo:
How Thor 4 does will probably determine if they go full in on using Marvel's "diverse" replacements for legacy characters.
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Phase 5 will already be in production by the time Thor 4 is released (if it ever gets released). I doubt it will have much of an impact.
 
The Black Widow movie is only happening for a specific reason, and that reason is Wonder Woman. See, whenever a movie flops, Hollywood execs lay the blame on the audience. Well, the AUDIENCE just didn't want to see a movie about XYZ, and that's why it didn't make any money. Couldn't possibly be because the movie was written badly.

Iron Man was a risk on top of a risk. Raimi's Spiderman proved superhero movies could be successful and well loved, but they weren't really taken seriously at the time. Plus, RDJ was just now back on the scene and a lot of people didn't trust him. Iron Man proved successful, though, and led to where we are today.

But female superhero movies, while attempted, had never really been successful. Electra? Catwoman? No way.

So, Black Widow doesn't get a movie. It doesn't help she's not as iconic of a superhero as many other MCU offerings. I imagine she was mainly thrown into the Avengers to be 'the girl' and bring in a female superhero to appeal to female audiences.

I am of firm belief that fatigue of DC is what saved Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is arguably the most iconic female superhero, so she at least had more of a chance. But you could tell how little faith they had in the movie - no one really talked about it until it came out, and it was...good. A DC movie? Good? And it stars a female superhero.

Hollywood is listening now, because they've proven it can be done. They have enough faith to make a Black Widow movie now, but it's way too late. The only thing I can't explain is where Captain Marvel lies in all this. Maybe it was already planned but Wonder Woman specfically heightened cries of 'wheres the black widow movie?'. If Disney had any sense Black Widow would have gone where Captain Marvel did.
 
Cho Chan dijo:
The only thing I can't explain is where Captain Marvel lies in all this.
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Because the 'MCU prints money' thing had been established that summer, with Guardians doing big bucks. Guardians, if nobody recalls, was legitimately talked about as "Marvel's first flop?" because it was the first that most of the mainstream would likely never have heard of. People were aware of Thor and Captain America, even if they weren't considered top tier. Who the fuck knew who Groot and Star Lord were?

So that comes out and is as big as any of the rest of them were, and they figured "Oh fuck we can seriously just do all of these characters and have them succeed" and there you go.

This seems like I'm going off on a tangent but it's related to your point; they're doing it specifically because it'll do well regardless of where it fits in or what "logical" sense it makes. Much like our pal Derranged Denton has been raging about, these films (for now, at least) really are money magnets that the normies can't get enough of. The movies will come out "whenever", because they know they're going to succeed regardless.
 
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