Late stage capitalism?

@Night Crawler all you faggots do is stick your fingers in your ears and insist something is capitalism, with zero actual support and despite any argument against you. I understand you’re pulling your dick to the idea that you’re getting the intellectual upper hand on someone. It’s the same level of intellectual dishonesty as those who’ve redefined other words (e.g. racism) for their own means.
 
@Mukhrani This is true, a good point, and something that I have thought about before. Economists often tell stories about how the urban workers wouldn't have moved to the city if they weren't better off, will show statistics of that, but what many of them miss (not because they intentionally leave it out but because they just don't know this) is that the high supply of industrial workers was artificial.

I've thought to myself that industrialization may have happened "too quickly" to be efficient. In the sense that it wasn't necessary for these clearances, slavery, and other such things to have happened to industrialize (which some people, New Historians of Capitalism, argue), but it effectively acted like a "subsidy" to it. Same as the Soviet Union having industrialized too quickly (industrialization by completely disregarding the consumption of the workers).

I'm not too sold about it. There is a weird idea of peasant work being some ideal line of work rather than back breaking labour where your entire family dies from starvation because the weather and bad luck fucked up your harvest. At least in the city you have a stable day to day income that is slightly less up to chance, with better living conditions. The improvements in technology probably reduce the need of more farm hands to work, so you had a lot of population not having a lot of choice. There is a reason why only people who actually grown in the environment continue to work it, and in countries like Japan the entire countryside is on the verge of being completely eroded.
Look up the Highland Clearances. It's not a speculative thing, there was a period when massive numbers of British peasants were uprooted, at gunpoint, and forced to leave their jobs. It was as artificial as the mass migrations of Stalin.

@Night Crawler all you faggots do is stick your fingers in your ears and insist something is capitalism, with zero actual support and despite any argument against you. I understand you’re pulling your dick to the idea that you’re getting the intellectual upper hand on someone. It’s the same level of intellectual dishonesty as those who’ve redefined other words (e.g. racism) for their own means.
The average Aut-Righter, in this day and age, is just a libtard who has realized the Left hates them and has done a 180 to hating Blacks now. That's all there is to them. That's the whole extent of their ideology, or their worldview. Worthless people and I hope for a day when they all get the bullet.
 
I've thought to myself that industrialization may have happened "too quickly" to be efficient. In the sense that it wasn't necessary for these clearances, slavery, and other such things to have happened to industrialize (which some people, New Historians of Capitalism, argue), but it effectively acted like a "subsidy" to it. Same as the Soviet Union having industrialized too quickly (industrialization by completely disregarding the consumption of the workers).
Hilaire Belloc - I think, it might have been a different historian - wrote an essay that I once read which went over all the technological advances of the industrial revolution and their timelines, basically completely disproving this idea that the technological advancements themselves lead to the concentration of capital and then the mass migrations. New tech could have been integrated into the old economic arrangement, but the concentration of capital was pursued as a deliberate policy to snowball the wealth of the politically connected and the aristocracy artificially, then it was chalked up as just a result of technology post hoc. It's interesting that slavery was originally on the way out iirc - Thomas Jefferson played a pivotal role in ending the slave trade, and he figured that economics would do the rest. For a while it looked like he was correct. Unfortunately, when the cotton gin was invented before mechanized cotton farming there was a huge spike in demand for raw materials - the same market fluctuation that led to the clearances also led to the rebirth and prolonging of slavery.
I'm not too sold about it. There is a weird idea of peasant work being some ideal line of work rather than back breaking labour where your entire family dies from starvation because the weather and bad luck fucked up your harvest. At least in the city you have a stable day to day income that is slightly less up to chance, with better living conditions. The improvements in technology probably reduce the need of more farm hands to work, so you had a lot of population not having a lot of choice. There is a reason why only people who actually grown in the environment continue to work it, and in countries like Japan the entire countryside is on the verge of being completely eroded.
There's a difference between rural living and peasant life under feudalism. The main one being that land wasn't a commodity - it couldn't be taken away or sold, you were literally attached to the land on a legal level. If you built something, your descendants were guaranteed to profit from it because the land would always be in your family as long as your family existed. There's a lot of agricultural infrastructure in Europe that was built at this time - for example, if you're a company or corporation nowadays, it doesn't make sense to build stone terraces, as this is an expensive, difficult project that will only pay itself back over generations. If you're a peasant looking out for your posterity, you do have that incentive. In the same way that capitalism harnesses greed to make people production, feudalism harnessed familial bonds and the strong biological bonds associated with that.

You saw that go away with the Clearances, as first common land was enclosed for the lord's private use. This reduced the peasants to a more destitute state. Some landlords offered to pay them to leave, but many refused until they were either forced off their land or the potato famine dealt the final blow to the now-impoverished rural communities that no longer were given access to enough land to sustain themselves. Famines were always a thing, usually once a generation or so, but the insane famines that you saw in the 'Hungry Forties' were a result of the peasant class being squeezed by the aristocracy for decades until they were a shadow of their former selves.

A farmer in Japan or America now lives in a completely different world - you're tied in to high finance, prices are set by odd government policies, and the introduction of expensive farm equipment completely changes the equation. The reasons for the depopulation of, for example, the Japanese countryside are very different from the Clearances, where soldiers literally had to show up with guns and force people off their land. These people had no skills to feed themselves once they were forced off and ended up in workhouses, often treated like slaves. There was no mechanized farming, that would come much later - the land that had been built up for agriculture was turned over to grazing. You didn't have fewer farmhands in the countryside, entire villages that had existed for centuries were forcibly turned into ghost towns overnight. There was a political element to this as well in Scotland, as it shattered the backbone of the Highland Clans, who were largely Catholic and a thorn in the Crown's foot. You can see that many areas lost over half their population.


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There's a difference between rural living and peasant life under feudalism. The main one being that land wasn't a commodity - it couldn't be taken away or sold, you were literally attached to the land on a legal level. If you built something, your descendants were guaranteed to profit from it because the land would always be in your family as long as your family existed. There's a lot of agricultural infrastructure in Europe that was built at this time - for example, if you're a company or corporation nowadays, it doesn't make sense to build stone terraces, as this is an expensive, difficult project that will only pay itself back over generations. If you're a peasant looking out for your posterity, you do have that incentive. In the same way that capitalism harnesses greed to make people production, feudalism harnessed familial bonds and the strong biological bonds associated with that.

You saw that go away with the Clearances, as first common land was enclosed for the lord's private use. This reduced the peasants to a more destitute state. Some landlords offered to pay them to leave, but many refused until they were either forced off their land or the potato famine dealt the final blow to the now-impoverished rural communities that no longer were given access to enough land to sustain themselves. Famines were always a thing, usually once a generation or so, but the insane famines that you saw in the 'Hungry Forties' were a result of the peasant class being squeezed by the aristocracy for decades until they were a shadow of their former selves.
Reading about it, the Highland Clearances was done with the support of British rulers, which contradicts the idea of ""legally being attached to the land". If your lord decided that he wants to take your shit, you have very little to do about it. Like what, you'll take him to court? And while famines weren't as common, you're still one disaster away from losing an entire season of work - Be it disease, fire or pests.
A farmer in Japan or America now lives in a completely different world - you're tied in to high finance, prices are set by odd government policies, and the introduction of expensive farm equipment completely changes the equation
It's not like under feudalism money wasn't an issue and you weren't dependent on a ton of elements not under your control. Just these days it's easier to see the cause of prices due to ease of information. And I'd wager under feudalism your lord could outright give your land to other people if he was under the impression you are not using it as well as you could.
 
"Late stage capitalism" sort of implies the marxist theory that there is an inevitable end to the status quo (named Capitalism) in the form of Communism. But we're not in late stage capitalism, we're in late stage feudalism served with a side of copeslaw, careening toward technocracy. The whole enlightenment dialectic is fake, gay, and post hoc.
I'd take ye olde feudalism over this neo feudalism. At least back then if I were a serf my Lord had a vested interest in my survival so I could tend his crops. Neo feudalism can replace me with a pajeet in an instant.
 
It's not so much late-stage capitalism as it is supercapitalism. The fate of capitalism is to become so superior that eventually it consumes itself.

Here's what Mussolini said:

"At this stage, supercapitalism finds its inspiration and its justification in a utopia: the utopia of unlimited consumption. Supercapitalism's ideal is the standardization of the human race from the cradle to the grave. Supercapitalism wants all babies to be born exactly the same length so that the cradles can be standardized and all children persuaded to like the same toys. It wants all men to don the very same uniform, to read the same book, to have the same tastes in films, and to desire the same so-called labor-saving devices. This is not the result of caprice. It inheres in the logic of events, for only thus can supercapitalism make its plans."

Sound familiar to today? I suggest reading his entire speech, and as a side note it's incredible to me how he sounds far smarter than any politician today. If I have one criticism with Benny the Moose's logic here, it's that he did not account for the fact that socialism in the form of social democracy--which Stalin was correct in describing as "social fascism" because it is a form of class collaboration--could fulfill fascism's role in mitigating the end of capitalism. This was done to incipient degrees as early as the era of Teddy Roosevelt in the US (i.e. trust busting) and then became the dominant mode of things in the West by the end of the 40s. Indeed, they even formed a Uniparty as their equivalent to the one-party rule of fascism.

Predictably it produced the most prosperous period in all human history. It only ended because the global elite regained power (after being forced to share it due to World War II) and your Reagans and Thatchers sold it all off to China with the full consent of the other side of the Uniparty like "Scranton Joe" Biden back in the 80s. Now to be fair, there were factors like how social democracy inevitably leads to communism--look at British labor unions and their communist links for instance, or how Fabian socialism/reformist socialism underpins the ideology of nearly every left-wing party on the planet. These reformists ignored the economic aspects of communism in favor of the bureaucratic and social aspects of a communist state which neatly falls in line with managerialism (the essence of supercapitalism) and government by laptop caste.

Fascism and national socialism (not necessarily Nazism) are immune to this because they do not pursue globalism, have concrete goals for the nation that go beyond "progress is good", do not have communism as the end goal, and permit a reconciliation with the beneficial aspects of capitalism by using government intervention despite said capitalism no longer viable.
Faux-left publications will tell you ''the wages fell off in the 80's during the Thatcher-Reagan times when greed took over''. But I don't believe that at all, I think things began to decline in the 2010's after the great recession. They don't want people to know this is a much more RECENT phenomenon. It's fairly obvious we're in the late stage of our economics system.. or maybe it really just collapsed in 2008 for good.
This is not true, the average wage for American and European workers peaked in the early 1970s at the onset of the stagflation period. Housing in particular was very cheap compared to what we have now--median price in 1972 was $27K, or $200K adjusted for inflation which is literally half of what it is today, and cheaper than it has been for decades. Low-end cars were slightly cheaper in 1972 (albeit far less reliable and more gas guzzling, but gas was cheap too before the oil crisis) than today.

Statistics showing average family income demonstrate that the middle class has been constantly shrinking since the 1970s. While the upper middle class and especially the upper class has grown, the lower class has expanded as well. This is because on the high end you have the creation of the laptop caste and on the low end you have a host of dead end jobs where you compete with the entire rest of the world thanks to globalism.
Libertarians are actually correct when they say we don't have true free market capitalism because of government intervention, the problem is even if we had true free market capitalism it would be a disaster. What you actually want is a government that intervenes but not in retarded ways.
Correct. The corporations would either provide the services the government does, including the service to crush competition, or they would become the government. Powerful people by definition do not play by the rules, they make the rules, as one look at history demonstrates.
 
The United States retired a certain type of capitalism until Milton Friedman (Jew) pushed them to reimplement it.

What a fucking disaster. Look at pictures of U.S cities during the early 60's outside the nigger areas and you'll see what a well run society it was. Women only worked by choice, not by necessity either.

Now it takes two working parents for a family to even survive . Or maybe even that isn't enough.

The "new deal" was not communism and people need to get that through their fucking hess. It was just the basics. Supply side has favored who? No one other than the already rich.
Exactly the New Deal was just FDR trying to copy the successful economic policies of Hitler and the NSDAP. It still took the US to enter into the war before the Depression ended. Meanwhile Germany was able to exit it via peacetime.
 
@Night Crawler The problem is you’re not describing capitalism, but corporatism (which is an accurate description of the US’s current economic system).
It's not. The US is not a fascist state, it doesn't work under a corporatist system. Trade unions and guilds aren't the coordinators in the economy nor do companies serve the interests of the state.
 
The issues with Western economies is due to de-industrialization, immigration, corruption, and government funding ops (Plunge protection team/FED funding investors like blackrock/etc).
The end result is a situation where there are far less jobs, way too many people completing in the smaller job market, and companies being insulated for poor business practices that brought us here in the first place.
No economic system could possibly survive this, and capitalism itself arguably had little to do with these factors appearing in our societies. At most, short term economic thinking to these factors taking hold, but were likely started for the reasons we see today (Muh environment!/Muh brownie voters!/Using corps as an unofficial government arm/etc). Calling it "late-stage capitalism" is just a pinko trick in the hopes idiots would give even more power to the elected and unelected officials that caused these issues in the first place.

nor do companies serve the interests of the state
Counterpoint: We had social media actively censor themselves after being ordered to by the government. Government backed practices and propaganda (trannies/racial division/etc) are being supported by corporations against their own economic interests because of funding directly/indirectly by the government. It can also be argued that corporate data collection benefits the government, and allows them to spy on citizens in a manner that isn't legally questionable. They may not have mandated party members on their boards yet, but large corporations are an unofficial arm of the government.
 
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Exactly the New Deal was just FDR trying to copy the successful economic policies of Hitler and the NSDAP. It still took the US to enter into the war before the Depression ended. Meanwhile Germany was able to exit it via peacetime.
Germany may have made it work had they not undertaken their rearmament program which was so ambitious that it forced Hitler to ally with the USSR and by 1939 was crashing their economy and forced Hitler's hand well-ahead of the target goal of "war by 1945."

I definitely agree that the New Deal was fascism, mostly of the "social fascism" variety Stalin spoke of, but certainly some elements of it (especially where Southern Democrats were involved) could be called genuine fascism. Is there really a difference between the government making the TVA with the full consent of racist Southern politicians and then forcing tens of thousands of people off their land to build hydro dams for the sake of "progress" and Mussolini doing the exact same thing in the Pontine Marshes? But I think the New Deal was an inferior version of fascism meant to fight off the competing visions of people like Huey Long and Charles Coughlin (or on the left the literal communists).
The issues with Western economies is due to de-industrialization, immigration, corruption, and government funding ops (Plunge protection team/FED funding investors like blackrock/etc).
The end result is a situation where there are far less jobs, way too many people completing in the smaller job market, and companies being insulated for poor business practices that brought us here in the first place.
No economic system could possibly survive this, and capitalism itself arguably had little to do with these factors appearing in our societies. At most, short term economic thinking to these factors taking hold, but were likely started for the reasons we see today (Muh environment!/Muh brownie voters!/Using corps as an unofficial government arm/etc). Calling it "late-stage capitalism" is just a pinko trick in the hopes idiots would give even more power to the elected and unelected officials that caused these issues in the first place.
You're describing the symptoms instead of the cause. Capitalism is a system that rewards economic efficiency. At some point, a firm will smash its competition and faces the choice of either remaining static (a losing proposition) or continuing to grow, and the latter requires bending the government to its will. How is that any different than medieval times when rich nobles--who were heirs to decades or centuries of successful growth as landlords--did the same?

We saw this in capitalism over a century ago with the monopolists, the trusts, and the half-busted oligopolies who formed cartels (i.e. Big Tobacco after the tobacco trust was broken up). The capitalists involved held insane amounts of lobbying power, because why shouldn't they? "Small government" rarely exists, and when it does it's just a power vacuum, and in the "small government" of late 19th century America these capitalists acquired incredible power and their only opposition was a mix of socialists (i.e. Eugene Debs), traditionalists (i.e. KKK adjacents mostly in the South who fought Big Tobacco and other agricultural interests, including when they imported Mexican, Italian, and Chinese immigrants), and pragmatists like Teddy Roosevelt who thought their unrestrained operation might be detrimental to the country.

Today is the logical outgrowth after the pause caused by the world wars requiring the elite to recruit the common people and give them some level of power, which was reversed due to this movement being overtaken by communists and the subsequent mass outsourcing of jobs and "free trade" like NAFTA in the 80s and 90s. Managerialism is the logical end state of capitalism as more or less predicted by Mussolini a century ago.
 
Reading about it, the Highland Clearances was done with the support of British rulers, which contradicts the idea of ""legally being attached to the land". If your lord decided that he wants to take your shit, you have very little to do about it. Like what, you'll take him to court? And while famines weren't as common, you're still one disaster away from losing an entire season of work - Be it disease, fire or pests.
It contradicts it in the same way the the nationalizations under the Bolsheviks 'contradicts' the idea of legally owning property under capitalism - of course the rules of capitalism will be broken as capitalism was ended as a system and superseded by another one with new rules. The Highland Clearances were ones of the events which marked the end of feudalism as a system precisely because the old rules that allowed feudalism to exist were being overturned. The new rules were capitalist ones - land was now a commodity that was bought and sold independent of the people living on it. A lord, in fact, could not just 'take your land' in the Middle Ages - the Lord didn't own land itself, he owned a fief or something similar, which came with the peasants living on it. He wasn't entitled to sell the land itself, or to even use all of the land itself, he was entitled to a portion of the proceeds from that land as rents. And this was really a better arrangement for him, as the labor of the peasants was what was truly valuable in those days - getting rid of them would have meant having a tract of fallow land that wasn't generating any money and a bunch of pissed-off vagabonds that hate you roaming around with torches and pitchforks - overall bad governance as far as outcomes go. The first step of expropriation was the lord taking the 'common land' away from the peasants - for centuries, this didn't normally happen. Then one day, the social conditions changed and it did. That marked the beginning of the end for feudalism, as sure as mass nationalizations and expropriation would mark the end of capitalism - because it breaks the rules under which the old system operated.
It's not like under feudalism money wasn't an issue and you weren't dependent on a ton of elements not under your control. Just these days it's easier to see the cause of prices due to ease of information. And I'd wager under feudalism your lord could outright give your land to other people if he was under the impression you are not using it as well as you could.
He could give your land to other people in certain circumstances - but you would come with the land. Modern property rights concerning land came about at the same time as capitalism did - it's referred to as the 'commodification of land' and was a very new thing when it happened - before that there was no market at all for 'land'. Feudalism evolved out of a system of warlords - you had hierarchies of warlords who controlled different 'lands'. What that meant is that they governed over the people living on that land, collected rents and duties, could raise an army if the next guy up the ladder wanted one. Nobody was thinking about micromanaging this or that plot for great productivity and shuffling peasants around - you as a lord wanted land with people living on it - that was worth more than barren land - as it gave you power and prestige.

Empty land was nice but by its nature unproductive - you could use it for hunting or something but economic activity that you collected rents from came with people living on that land. The power that you got from that let you capture more land, through marriages, war, or sometimes purchases. Keep in mind though most lords wouldn't sell off the source of their power, and if you did get people with the lands you would want to keep them as it meant recruits, rents, etc. Telling two dudes to randomly swap plots which their ancestors had spent centuries working to leave to their offspring would cause unrest and cause you to be seen as a destabilizing influence by others in your own class for breaking the rules that kept your class in a nice, stable, elevated position. After all, the peasants worked hard and gave you a nice slice of it because they got to keep a portion and pass it on to their progeny. Start breaking the rules, maybe they don't work at all and start sharpening your pitchforks. Peasant revolts were a very real danger that rulers had to contend with - though they were usually suppressed, they could weaken the lord/king in question and cause him to lose standing, lands, and prestige as his rivals took advantage of the unrest.
 
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Failed at what? Capitalism was quite good at advancing quality of life for the citizen....but failed at lining pockets of the elite and powerful

That's why they got rid of it in the 60s
They got rid of the post-war Corporatist arrangement because powerful unions got a decent share of the pie that the elites already owned the majority of. There also was a strong drive in the post-war arrangement to keep a decent quality of life going within Capitalist systems because as Von Bismark observed during the second Reich, a government offering the plebs services keeps them both happy and loyal. This also resulted in a lot of inefficiencies that were seen as ideologically incompatible with the free market ideas that US wanted the world to be built upon.

What changed was Neoliberalism, seeking to break the unions and the stuffy conservatism of the industrialists by making finance the most important sector of the economy and every company was now to be operated with maximum short-term profits in mind or suffer from a corporate raid. Factories were moved out of the West into China because Deng opened the place up and the West accepted this because A: They didn't see China as a threat and B: The costs of doing business were phenominally cheap. They also saw a strong China as a thorn to the Soviet Union so that was just one more tool to win the cold war with.

In the end, China ended up becoming the next major Superpower and they paid very close attention to what was happening in the Soviet Union under Gorbachev. In a way, one can see today's China as what the Soviet Union would be like if it adopted only Perestroika and didn't do Glasnost.
 
In the end, China ended up becoming the next major Superpower and they paid very close attention to what was happening in the Soviet Union under Gorbachev. In a way, one can see today's China as what the Soviet Union would be like if it adopted only Perestroika and didn't do Glasnost.

Perestroika was not the same as China opening up. Sure your average Soviet citizen was poorer, but they still expected to have an expensive social safety net propped up by massive oil revenue. Their labor was not super cheap and it really could never be super cheap. You can't sell stuff made in the Urals like you can sell stuff made right on the coast of Guangzhou. Free speech disappearing also does not somehow undo a sudden massive decline in standards of living caused by oil price declines.

Chinese people literally still do not have any kind of public healthcare and largely still live in squalor. The USSR had an internal passport system, but nothing like the Hukou pass in China that limits services based on your city citizenship.
 
Perestroika was not the same as China opening up. Sure your average Soviet citizen was poorer, but they still expected to have an expensive social safety net propped up by massive oil revenue. Their labor was not super cheap and it really could never be super cheap. You can't sell stuff made in the Urals like you can sell stuff made right on the coast of Guangzhou. Free speech disappearing also does not somehow undo a sudden massive decline in standards of living caused by oil price declines.

Chinese people literally still do not have any kind of public healthcare and largely still live in squalor. The USSR had an internal passport system, but nothing like the Hukou pass in China that limits services based on your city citizenship.
The main economic problems of the Soviet Union were not merely limited to the oil markets but also to an excessive focus on heavy industries and an inefficient management structure that refused to computerize until it was too late. The main problem that adopting a semi-open market solved was ensuring enough consumer goods reached the average citizen and having a faster reaction time than the highly centralized structure of the Soviet economy. The excessive focus on heavy industries also ensured that while there would be no shortage of tractors for the farms, a substantial amount of the tractors produced ended up rotting in a field just outside the factory, never to do it's intended work. There also were things that genuinely didn't make sense, such as a case where a laundromat was forced to start scrapping it's machines because they now had a quota to produce a certain amount of scrap metal, because last year they had scrapped old machines and procured new ones.

Though, the biggest drop in living standards happened specifically due to the shock therapy treatment that the consultants hired to advise Yeltsin proposed. Now, people had to worry about rents and being able to afford food, instead of just waiting for a house to be built or waiting for food to arrive. Places that only made sense within a command economy were now turned into post-industrial shitholes. Well-placed oligarchs who understood the game took advantage of the average man, who might own a single share of the factory they worked at to effectively extort them out of their shares. There was no shortage of weapons for these oligarchs, as the soldiers guarding the nearest armory hadn't received their payment in weeks and thus, happily exchanged the keys for the ability to buy food and booze.
 
Shit is getting bad but the phrase "late stage capitalism" is retarded commie cope that implies capitalism is gonna collapse, "anytime now! 2 more weeks!" when the countries that are more likely to implode right now are the welfare socialist-lite europeans from the weight of a zillion doctors&engineers living off gibs, or planned economies like china for wasting trillions building trains and bridges to nowhere with graft all over the place.

Capitalism is here to stay, its only gonna get worse as AI both replaces workers and streamlines state control of the population.
Not the best example since retail in general and department stores in particular got fucked by ecommerce going mainstream, specially after the lockdowns.

If you want a good example you have to compare jobs that didn't get "disrupted" like that, would say car salesman but you can buy a car online too.
 
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