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I would be up for a sequel going over Harley’s origins...if they take their inspiration from the animated series version. They could definitely make that a really good character study movie.
I would be up for a sequel going over Harley’s origins...if they take their inspiration from the animated series version. They could definitely make that a really good character study movie.
Seeing Joaquin's Joker woo and manipulate his own doctor would be strange, but interesting. Kind of a slow burn Silence of the Lambs sort of film but with romance and maybe less overt physical abuse since his Joker actually desires connection and the company of others. I think something really dark but creepily quirky could work.
Seeing Joaquin's Joker woo and manipulate his own doctor would be strange, but interesting. Kind of a slow burn Silence of the Lambs sort of film but with romance and maybe less overt physical abuse since his Joker actually desires connection and the company of others. I think something really dark but creepily quirky could work.
I remember back when Logan came out I was hoping that it would create a new wave of superhero movies; we wouldn't just have the family friendly MCU, but movies that would actually challenge us emotionally and maybe intellectually.
Two years later, that hasn't happened. Instead we got a deluge of MCU shit. Joker is the only serious comic book movie to have come out since then.
sadly, movies like the Joker don't appeal to the average critic and, for some reason, movie producers/companies believe they're the ones they should be trying to appeal.
Say, I do like Harry Potter (just to put an example). I think it does have moral conflicts in the story. But even those conflicts are in a safe space (heh...). Which is fine, as the target are children who are still learning about good and bad. Problem is that it got so popular and people grew up without growing out Harry, that all media they consume is still inside that safe space. Something like Joker appeals to our own dark side, a side we all have, but Potter generation doesn't want to admit they have one. :/
I just came back from seeing the movie. It's pretty good. I give it a 7 out of 10
I would have given it a 10 out of 10 but I think they should have cut more at the beginning of Arthur tarding out there and made it an hour and a half.
The Government Social Services failed Arthur,
The Health Care services failed arthur,
The police (and CPS) failed arthur,
Big business failed the economy [and Arthur] forcing him to live on scraps
The Media failed Arthur [and the city] by making them fear "Super Rats" and not the garbage and the strike
The Entertainment media sold scandalous and salacious messages to distract the masses.
And the city rises up against all this stuff.....thats afraid of this message in our world
sadly, movies like the Joker don't appeal to the average critic and, for some reason, movie producers/companies believe they're the ones they should be trying to appeal.
Say, I do like Harry Potter (just to put an example). I think it does have moral conflicts in the story. But even those conflicts are in a safe space (heh...). Which is fine, as the target are children who are still learning about good and bad. Problem is that it got so popular and people grew up without growing out Harry, that all media they consume is still inside that safe space. Something like Joker appeals to our own dark side, a side we all have, but Potter generation doesn't want to admit they have one. :/
It's the same reason they hated the recent Judge Dredd movie as well. This Joker movie has really illuminated something. These people are still children. They truly dont have a concept of what evil actually looks like in the real world. It's never some dark lord who goes about in a black Cape looking all evil and being bad because he wants to be bad. Evil can be some mentally ill loner who cares for his mother and gets kicked one too many times. Or in the case of Dredd, a beaten up former whore who has had a few screws knocked loose and doing what she thinks she has to do to survive in a society that has to eat it's own dead to function.
They simply cannot deal with Evil that is not only plausible but known to be real. And they certainly cannot deal with the confrontation of what actual violence is. Hell even the Berkley riots were just a bunch of Kids Larping at being revolutionaries. Not one of those black clad morons were actually setting out to kill someone. The more recent incident with the bike lock dude, even he probably was not actually thinking he was going to kill the dude he brained with it.
And such an uncompromising depiction of what evil actually is and what violence actually is makes them realize that if they encountered the Joker on a subway train at 1 AM, they would not be the bat man. They would just be a simple salaryman who incidentally, also does not have a gun either, or the will to use it.
The list of things for someone special to get mad about in this film is just impressive:
• Sympathetic portrayal of toxic white masculinity and gun violence. Makes me want to rewatch Death Wish 3.
• It's shallow, nihilistic, adolescent, fake deep, smug, banal, etc.
• Trailer bait and switch showed Joker with some game, but he's basically a delusional incel. I do consider him an incel for those scenes. Joker 2019 is the King of The Incels.
• Bonus: Joker fantasizes about committing a suave sexual assault against a woman of color.
• Occupy Antifa protesters portrayed as violent killers and worshipers of a serial killer.
• Too many black characters were added to shield the movie from criticism. Never mind that Fleck is living among his fellow poor people.
• Fleck's mental illness is another shield from criticism.
• "We live in a society" reference. I don't remember the line but he definitely blamed society.
• Paul Gadd getting royalties. It's unacceptable for him to get a few thousand bucks to buy scones and ramen in prison. That is if he is actually getting any royalties at all.
• Director and Phoenix's comments.
• It's award show bait.
• Dwarf got spared because he was non-threatening.
Look at what Disney did with Peter Cushing in Rogue One. Then advance computer hardware and software by a decade or two and see what's possible. If there are personality rights issues, you could try making a movie anonymously on your basement's supercomputer. I'm talking next level deepfakes and procedurally generated environments, no motion capture necessary.
sadly, movies like the Joker don't appeal to the average critic and, for some reason, movie producers/companies believe they're the ones they should be trying to appeal.
Studios want to make money. Joker was intended to be a low budget film with only about $55-70 million spent on production. Advertising is supposedly around $120 million. They will make it back. By contrast, Justice League's production budget was around $300 million, with $150 million for marketing. If they do other DC alt universe films, they will follow the same low budget formula.
I just came back from seeing the movie. It's pretty good. I give it a 7 out of 10
I would have given it a 10 out of 10 but I think they should have cut more at the beginning of Arthur tarding out there and made it an hour and a half.
The initial tarding made it more impactful when it became apparent how crazy he actually was, and when he disavows his laughing condition. It also set up some dominoes for him to knock over. No cuts for me.
I bet someone will Phantom Edit away all of the Batman stuff, cutting the run time.
Studios want to make money. Joker was intended to be a low budget film with only about $55-70 million spent on production. Advertising is supposedly around $120 million. They will make it back. By contrast, Justice League's production budget was around $300 million, with $150 million for marketing. If they do other DC alt universe films, they will follow the same low budget formula.
Honestly Warner Brothers may have hit the winning formula here. They have been trying to out marvel Disney marvel with the DC films, but at the end of the day the gold standard of the DC movies has never been their heroes. It's been the villains. Who are the most iconic characters to come out of the movie adaptions of DC comics? I would argue its Bane and Joker.
The DC heroes are interchangeable with the Marvel ones but the Villains are what truly sets them apart imo. They should keep focusing on that instead. It would be different as well. Maybe instead of plowing 300 million dollars into another shitty superman reboot, do a more low budget charachter movie of Cat Woman. And actually be smart about it this time. Then you can bring in the heroes, not as the main events themselves but as the antagonists to the villains.
Paul Gadd getting royalties. It's unacceptable for him to get a few thousand bucks to buy scones and ramen in prison. That is if he is actually getting any royalties at all.
Shame that this wasn't brought up in earlier contexts (Pauly Paedo definitely got royalties from the NFL, and that cunt isn't in prison as supposedly he's safer on the outside)
I'm disturbed at how many of the critics seem to be operating on the assumption that a violent " eat the rich" revolution is inherently a good idea as long as it's under their control.
Seeing Joaquin's Joker woo and manipulate his own doctor would be strange, but interesting. Kind of a slow burn Silence of the Lambs sort of film but with romance and maybe less overt physical abuse since his Joker actually desires connection and the company of others. I think something really dark but creepily quirky could work.
Shame that this wasn't brought up in earlier contexts (Pauly Paedo definitely got royalties from the NFL, and that cunt isn't in prison as supposedly he's safer on the outside)
Honestly Warner Brothers may have hit the winning formula here. They have been trying to out marvel Disney marvel with the DC films, but at the end of the day the gold standard of the DC movies has never been their heroes. It's been the villains. Who are the most iconic characters to come out of the movie adaptions of DC comics? I would argue its Bane and Joker.
The DC heroes are interchangeable with the Marvel ones but the Villains are what truly sets them apart imo. They should keep focusing on that instead. It would be different as well. Maybe instead of plowing 300 million dollars into another shitty superman reboot, do a more low budget charachter movie of Cat Woman. And actually be smart about it this time. Then you can bring in the heroes, not as the main events themselves but as the antagonists to the villains.
The movie was very good. It's also one of the most grim movies I've watched in a wide release since Hereditary or The Witch. I expected that, but I expected it to be the edgy kind of grim when really it's just depressing and uncomfortable. Part of me wishes that DC would pivot hard in this direction and just make more challenging movies that Marvel would never consider making. I saw some people getting pissed off at "oh, it's nothing like the comics" but in my opinion the best Batman stuff is either grim neo-noir or straight-up horror/psychological thriller (Frank Miller's earlier Batman work, Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, Long Halloween, etc.). If there's one mainstream comic series with plenty of material that could fit a hard-R rating, it's Batman.
That being said, I really don't understand all the critics screaming about how "IT'S TOXIC AND HAS NOTHING TO SAY" when the movie outright states its theme three times at least. It's a fucking comic book origin story, how much does it have to say? What, does shit like Thor or Ant-Man have incredible, uplifting messages? It's pretty clear-cut-- Arthur is a loser who literally nobody cares about or listens to. He wants desperately to be noticed and accepted by other people, but everyone else wants nothing to do with him because his mental issues make him a deeply uncomfortable person to be around. The only time he gets any sort of power over his life is when he kills people, so as his life completely falls apart he starts leaning more and more towards violence because that's the only way he can exert control. Eventually, he gets rid of his old persona and accepts the mantle of a symbol for a movement that he specifically states he doesn't care about because to him it's a means to an end of being noticed/loved. The movie doesn't really endorse anything political-- the main character literally states that he isn't political and doesn't believe in anything (it's ironic because critics are essentially doing what the crowds do in the movie and assigning a political ideology to him). It's a really detailed look into what kind of person a guy like the Joker would have to be to do what he does (if he was a person and not a force of nature like in The Dark Knight).
I think it's just people freaking out at a) having to watch a comic book movie that tries to do anything instead of the Marvel strategy of "easy-to-watch disposable mediocrity" and b) having to be in the perspective of a character that they find personally repellent because they can't distinguish between a movie depicting acts of violence/making you understand the motivations of a disturbed person and condoning those acts of violence/that person.
With maybe a little dose of c) being uncomfortable that a subset of people that they shit on constantly is humanized and seeing depictions of antifa-ish "kill the rich and fascists" riots shown as pretty negative things.
The list of things for someone special to get mad about in this film is just impressive:
• Sympathetic portrayal of toxic white masculinity and gun violence. Makes me want to rewatch Death Wish 3.
• It's shallow, nihilistic, adolescent, fake deep, smug, banal, etc.
• Trailer bait and switch showed Joker with some game, but he's basically a delusional incel. I do consider him an incel for those scenes. Joker 2019 is the King of The Incels.
• Bonus: Joker fantasizes about committing a suave sexual assault against a woman of color.
• Occupy Antifa protesters portrayed as violent killers and worshipers of a serial killer.
• Too many black characters were added to shield the movie from criticism. Never mind that Fleck is living among his fellow poor people.
• Fleck's mental illness is another shield from criticism.
• "We live in a society" reference. I don't remember the line but he definitely blamed society.
• Paul Gadd getting royalties. It's unacceptable for him to get a few thousand bucks to buy scones and ramen in prison. That is if he is actually getting any royalties at all.
• Director and Phoenix's comments.
• It's award show bait.
• Dwarf got spared because he was non-threatening.
That's not an exhaustive list.
Look at what Disney did with Peter Cushing in Rogue One. Then advance computer hardware and software by a decade or two and see what's possible. If there are personality rights issues, you could try making a movie anonymously on your basement's supercomputer. I'm talking next level deepfakes and procedurally generated environments, no motion capture necessary.
Studios want to make money. Joker was intended to be a low budget film with only about $55-70 million spent on production. Advertising is supposedly around $120 million. They will make it back. By contrast, Justice League's production budget was around $300 million, with $150 million for marketing. If they do other DC alt universe films, they will follow the same low budget formula.
The initial tarding made it more impactful when it became apparent how crazy he actually was, and when he disavows his laughing condition. It also set up some dominoes for him to knock over. No cuts for me.
I bet someone will Phantom Edit away all of the Batman stuff, cutting the run time.
I fucking hate how having films that AREN’T part of a continuity is now considered the “alternate”. Unless you’re going to invest a lot of effort into making sure that your movies fit well together - and that they would be better in a cinematic universe than as standalone films - then don’t fucking do it. Needing to follow the pretense of having an overarching continuity is what ruined the X-men movies, where they wasted multiple movies trying to justify its mess of a timeline when they should have focused on telling good, stand-alone stories instead. When you do that, you don’t need to worry about explaining why the actor for a character changed between movies, or why Magneto turns evil and is forgiven by Charles like 10 times.
'm disturbed at how many of the critics seem to be operating on the assumption that a violent " eat the rich" revolution is inherently a good idea as long as it's under their control.
The whole movie isn't really about a rich vs poor narrative where Arthur Fleck himself isn't political at all as he states clearly in his interview. Arthur spells out how he sees nothing but ugly and bad people everywhere and in the context of the film they come from all walks of life from the richest of rich with Thomas Wayne to the poor with the kids who beat him down to chasing down the sign and the case worker who seems to be going through the motions of therapy. Everyone in this film for the most part are either aloof assholes or violent assholes where the rioters are less looking to ways to improve conditions in the city as they are going to want to pillage and destroy and the rich don't seem to care their own city is decaying or are dismissive of the bottom rung.
I think the way the riots that were handled in this film were very mature and it is disturbing where as Arthur is being taken away and he gets to view Gotham on fire and destroyed, he starts to laugh at the great joke that is society and you see the horror on the police officer's face who seem to just trying to get by as they do their job and see that the chaos is near unstoppable.
Honestly Warner Brothers may have hit the winning formula here. They have been trying to out marvel Disney marvel with the DC films, but at the end of the day the gold standard of the DC movies has never been their heroes. It's been the villains. Who are the most iconic characters to come out of the movie adaptions of DC comics? I would argue its Bane and Joker.
The DC heroes are interchangeable with the Marvel ones but the Villains are what truly sets them apart imo. They should keep focusing on that instead. It would be different as well. Maybe instead of plowing 300 million dollars into another shitty superman reboot, do a more low budget charachter movie of Cat Woman. And actually be smart about it this time. Then you can bring in the heroes, not as the main events themselves but as the antagonists to the villains.
It's more than that. DC comics was always gritty and dark. Not saying Marvel isn't, but their tone has always been more cheerful. Both are fine and this doesn't mean one is for children while the other isn't. Children can manage dark too as long as it doesn't go too dark. DC movies has been trying to target the Marvel audience that want a more pg "millenial" type of humor. I remember people even saying "DC is just too dark" like that's a bad thing. There is a big audience for this kind of comic adaptation (as proven by this film), but DC wasn't daring to go there yet. That's why, imo, many felt disappointed by Suicide Squad or Justice League: they were too in the middle and was nothing. Either go full PG like Thor or GotG or dare to be dark. The Burton Batman films weren't afraid of being daring and people loved it. The studios fired him because they wanted to appeal children, but I think it's obvious that superhero films don't have to be for kids any more. Just keep some movies with a PG rating (Aquaman and Shazam did fine) and keep the main DC royalty for adults.
