‘It now feels as though I am on my own’ - Trans-man discovers being a man is more difficult than she imagined

‘It now feels as though I am on my own’​

Zander Keig, 52, San Diego

Coast Guard veteran. Works at Naval Medical Center San Diego as a clinical social work case manager. Editor of anthologies about transgender men. Started transition in 2005.

Prior to my transition, I was an outspoken radical feminist. I spoke up often, loudly and with confidence. I was encouraged to speak up. I was given awards for my efforts, literally — it was like, “Oh, yeah, speak up, speak out.” When I speak up now, I am often given the direct or indirect message that I am “mansplaining,” “taking up too much space” or “asserting my white male heterosexual privilege.” Never mind that I am a first-generation Mexican American, a transsexual man, and married to the same woman I was with prior to my transition.

I find the assertion that I am now unable to speak out on issues I find important offensive and I refuse to allow anyone to silence me. My ability to empathize has grown exponentially, because I now factor men into my thinking and feeling about situations. Prior to my transition, I rarely considered how men experienced life or what they thought, wanted or liked about their lives. I have learned so much about the lives of men through my friendships with men, reading books and articles by and for men and through the men I serve as a licensed clinical social worker.

Social work is generally considered to be “female dominated,” with women making up about 80 percent of the profession in the United States. Currently I work exclusively with clinical nurse case managers, but in my previous position, as a medical social worker working with chronically homeless military veterans — mostly male — who were grappling with substance use disorder and severe mental illness, I was one of a few men among dozens of women.

Zander Keig, a Coast Guard veteran and a board member for the Transgender American Veterans Association, attends its meeting in Washington.
Plenty of research shows that life events, medical conditions and family circumstances impact men and women differently. But when I would suggest that patient behavioral issues like anger or violence may be a symptom of trauma or depression, it would often get dismissed or outright challenged. The overarching theme was “men are violent” and there was “no excuse” for their actions.

I do notice that some women do expect me to acquiesce or concede to them more now: Let them speak first, let them board the bus first, let them sit down first, and so on. I also notice that in public spaces men are more collegial with me, which they express through verbal and nonverbal messages: head lifting when passing me on the sidewalk and using terms like “brother” and “boss man” to acknowledge me. As a former lesbian feminist, I was put off by the way that some women want to be treated by me, now that I am a man, because it violates a foundational belief I carry, which is that women are fully capable human beings who do not need men to acquiesce or concede to them.


What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being.

I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.” I was stunned, because I recall being in similar situations, but in the reverse, many times: A man would say or do something deemed obnoxious or offensive, and I would find solidarity with the women around me as we made eye contact, rolled our eyes and maybe even commented out loud on the situation. I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/
 
I'm not talking about interruptions in the workplace though. Super PL but it's my dad. lol at telling my dad to fuck off. my dad lives in my house btw not the other way around.
I've worked from home for much of the past 25 years. Not once in that time have either of my Parents EVER been able to grasp that AT Home = Working. Years before that I worked mostly nights as an Emergency Services Provider. Neither could grasp that "Daytime = Sleeping". To this day I still get constant interruptions from my mother. Be it in person or the classic and almost daily call of "Are you at home or are you working?" This isn't a Male Female thing. It's a Generational thing. And they do it to everybody regardless of whether or not you are a "Birthing Body".
 
Ah. Well I'm going to stick to my ground and say that's very different. A gay guy coming onto you is qualitatively different to any woman coming on to you. Regardless of that woman's attractiveness. She can be 100% unattractive to you and it's still not going to feel the same way as a gay guy making a move on you. Never will - it's not a question of degree, it's different. If a woman I didn't find attractive made a move on me it would have to be some pretty damn extreme circumstances for me to respond with aggression towards that. A gay guy made a move towards me he's going to get some pretty firm "back the fuck off" tone of voice. I've had strange women straight up grab my crotch. Didn't know her, didn't invite it. My reaction was still more surprise and amusment and even if she'd been ugly she'd have at most got a shove back from me to push her away. A guy did that he's going to be spitting teeth. The difference in reaction isn't based on attractiveness.

No, I believe we think differently for a number of reasons. And how often it occurs is not the primary one. I said this in my initial reply and you flat out told me I don't know how my own thought processes work.
yeah we believe differently because I'm telling you how women feel about stuff that actually happens and you're imagining how you'd feel about something that's never gonna happen, so we are definitely at an impasse.

I've worked from home for much of the past 25 years. Not once in that time have either of my Parents EVER been able to grasp that AT Home = Working. Years before that I worked mostly nights as an Emergency Services Provider. Neither could grasp that "Daytime = Sleeping". To this day I still get constant interruptions from my mother. Be it in person or the classic and almost daily call of "Are you at home or are you working?" This isn't a Male Female thing. It's a Generational thing. And they do it to everybody regardless of whether or not you are a "Birthing Body".
that's pretty interesting. it's definitely possible that if I were a dude it would be also be happening to me from either parent. I used that example because it was recent, but also because it seemed to fit the pattern that the people I know with home businesses experience from all the people in and out of their workspaces. Dad can rely on being left alone by doing basic things like wearing headphones or being behind a closed door; mom has to create extreme physical barriers in between her workspace and potential interruptions because no amount of visual signals or clear communication is sufficient.

also my brother lived in family property over lockdown and worked at home and did not have this issue, but he did have a separate apt, so I dunno.
 
yeah we believe differently because I'm telling you how women feel about stuff that actually happens and you're imagining how you'd feel about something that's never gonna happen, so we are definitely at an impasse.
You're extrapolating an idea of how straight men would react to a high amount of female attention from observational data from how gay men react to a high amount of male attention, and you're not acknowledging someone tell you how he-- as a straight man-- perceives male sexual attention drastically differently than female sexual attention.

I don't know how to say this, but straight men aren't gay, and men aren't women.
 
yeah we believe differently because I'm telling you how women feel about stuff that actually happens and you're imagining how you'd feel about something that's never gonna happen, so we are definitely at an impasse.
I've never told you that you're wrong about how you think. In fact, I agreed with you in part. You however are telling me you know better about how I think than I do. Based not on my experiences (which you have no knowledge of) but only your own, having never met me. You've a Hell of an ego on you.
 
You're extrapolating an idea of how straight men would react to a high amount of female attention from observational data from how gay men react to a high amount of male attention, and you're not acknowledging someone tell you how he-- as a straight man-- perceives male sexual attention drastically differently than female sexual attention.

I don't know how to say this, but straight men aren't gay, and men aren't women.
but maybe human beings are human beings? and people mostly like the same things and dislike the same things and have the same capacity for good and for evil.

this is pretty much exactly the point at which I part company with radfems as well, I don't think men are eviller than women
 
Jesus, you wordy fucks gave me a lot to read. Fortunately, I can't read, so fuck comprehension, and full steam ahead on rambling 'tism! Spoilers, so it's not a fucking leftist meme.
I'm not fucking gay. I'm straight as shit
Shit isn't straight, once it coils into the bowl, you fruit.
I live in a rural area and can say the women here are just as entitled. I've never met a woman who gives a rats ass about what men have to deal with. They just call us dumb and act smug without trying to understand men. because that's what they were taught by their mothers. These women have zero appreciation for what their husbands, brothers, and fathers do for them and the community. I don't think the majority of women care what men go through or deal with because they're selfish and entitled.

I had this sent to me a couple days ago, and it's relevant.
The reality is that men don't even rely on their girlfriends for social support systems with feelings, they rely on other men. Because contrary to popular belief, they don't really give a shit. I tried doing that and what I got was 'I'm not your therapist'. Its why you have all these articles about men just abandoning relationships or spending more times with their male friends than their girlfriends. I've opened up more to my male friends than any of my ex'es (though all my exes were manipulative sociopaths so you don't really want to give them ammo).
1656351905933.png

Dude admits he was raped as a child, women that claims to love him treats him like shit. This is not abnormal, there's thousands and thousands of posts about women pulling this kind of shit.
Men are not disposable, expendable, replaceable - to think otherwise is anti-male garbage and absolute misandry.
Men are absolutely disposable, because you absolutely require women to continue the species, but you need very few men to retain genetic diversity.
I like the rest of your post, but that graph is such a fucking pet peeve for me. IIRC it was a study done of like 2000 women (might have been total participants so maybe even less women), so pretty poor sample size to begin with. The way the study was done was that OKC users were sent random pfp of other users to rate. So at best the graph just shows what women who use OKC think of men who use OKC. And when you consider that men who use OKC are probably below average, after all they are men struggling to date conventionally, the numbers make more sense.

Plus women who use dating sites are the absolute bottom of the barrel and their opinions should just be discarded. Remember that OKC is for dating, not hook ups. Women on there are struggling to keep a man around, which means their personality is completely fucking insufferable.

Things might be shitty, but they're not that shitty. No reason to make up things to doom over when the world is already fucked.

Collectively men are not disposable. An individual man is, by the metrics of society bottom text, disposable compared to an individual woman.
This guy did a similar experiment.
1656352167808.png
RE: your comment about male disposability, see my reply to the post above.
Because men that fail have no support networks, and are taught from an early age that failure means they're entirely worthless, and a burden.

Wait until you find out about the crimes committed by women that get ignored, or relabeled as lesser crimes. Want an example? The CDC used to have concise tables about the various forms of sexual victimization it tracked in the NISVS, and those tables listed various things like "attempted rape", "completed rape", and "forced to penetrate", but that last one wasn't counted as "rape", it was counted as "other sexual assaults." Women that raped men were not being counted as rapists, despite committing a crime that matches all the requirements of the definition.

Prison and homeless shelters are not a substitute for the massive amount of energy society invests in handling women's needs.
It's not factually false, there's no end of news articles on google about women that were demonstrably unfit having custody, and killing their children.
Female monarchs have started more wars.

Women are currently out-earning men, and have been for a while. They've controlled 80% of domestic spending for at least 2 decades. Meanwhile, we've also had 20 years of "Why can't I find a good man?!", "I froze my eggs, but it failed!", and "I
left my husband for my affair, and he didn't leave his own wife!" articles.

Apparently you've missed the outrageous anger from women and hopeful low-status men on social media, anytime anyone posts that meme about "men must be 6'+ tall, but it's world-ending misogyny if you reply with 'women must have weight less than 200lbs."
Another on the list of reasons beards are gay and for manlets without jawlines.

Shit men create shit women. It’s a cycle that perpetuates farther with time. Shit women create shit men too so don’t think you are without the blame if you are a woman.

It starts at home. The world has become much worse since divorce rates have skyrocketed because people don’t know what a functional relationship looks like. Boys see their dads cheat on their moms and girls see their moms divorce rape their dads and the cycle continues.
Women select the men they're willing to fuck. That means men will do whatever dumb shit women expect of them. Source - pick any of the most absurd fashion trends, and see how many dudes wore that shit.
There's a reason why Christianity emphasizes the whole "one man, one woman, one flesh" thing. Sure, one dude with a harem of five women could rotate keeping a bun in the oven, but poor guys have a drive to pass on their genes too. And there's always more poor men than rich men. So if enough poor men have enough issues with the local lord, Lord Faffington IVth and his harem AND all the children AND the servants will all get lovely new hemp neckties. Women work as stabilizers for men same as men work as stabilizers for women, it's just in different ways. Thus, society continues and we don't have hordes of incels with Giga Chad proportions pillaging the countryside while women let their out of control emotions drive them insane.

By the way, if you want an example of what happens to women without men in their lives, just check Tiktok.
Nonsense. In the West, it was mainly the Church that took care of these matters, either directly or through encouraging alms and charitable works.
In the East, it was Buddhists.
In general, wherever you go, it has been religious organisations that have provided for the widow and the orphan. Atheists do nothing for others. Because they are shitbags.
Also consider that Islam instructs low-status men to go take themselves out by attacking non-Muslims, for the promise of 72 virgins. Low-status and low-IQ men sucked into a cult that promises you'll get rewarded in the afterlife for your martyrdom takes care of excess male population just as thoroughly as wars do, especially when the cult is a supremacist one, from it's inception.
I'm reminded of this edit to a comic that tried to be a gotcha by putting men into situations where they receive the same compliments as women and find out it's degrading, except it just took a nudge to make it into a wholesome scenario that highlights how seldom a man receives any sort of compliment or attention.
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Every month, I see another person post that meme about guys just wanting some basic validation, or something about guys treasuring the last compliment they got from someone that wasn't their mom or grandma, and women are constantly flabbergasted that men will remember every compliment they ever got from outside their female family members, because it happens so rarely. It blows my mind that people don't pay a second of attention to the fact that men rarely even get compliment for being good at their jobs, let alone a positive comment about their appearance or behavior.
yeah we believe differently because I'm telling you how women feel about stuff that actually happens and you're imagining how you'd feel about something that's never gonna happen, so we are definitely at an impasse.
I can absolutely guarantee you that @Overly Serious is correct, because I've been a bouncer in straight and gay bars, and not only is being hit on by a gay man different, but I've had women openly grope me, and been told by management that nothing was going to be done, because gaggles of drunk women spent a shit-ton of money, and money is more important to the continued operation of the bar than my bruised cock. I've also watched women claim men groped them, despite seeing and hearing the entire exchange and knowing it was not true, and had to actively intervene with other bouncers trying to throw the guy out, because the guy was absolutely innocent of anything other than "not being willing to buy that chick a drink." In fact, when the woman ran over to report her claim to the bouncer, she was uncritically believed, and immediate, aggressive action undertaken to remove the guy. The worst part is, I had to convince the guy to leave anyways, because the owner told me that a woman running around with a story of "I told the bouncers I was groped, and they didn't throw the guy out!", regardless of being a tale that's dishonest through egregious omission, would ruin the bar.

The only difference between what @Overly Serious and I have experienced is that I universally found that gay men were really hesitant to hit on a guy they didn't know, especially a guy that doesn't ""trigger their gaydar", and it's for exactly the reason they mentioned - straight men react poorly to gay men hitting on them. I was always polite, told them I was flattered but wasn't looking, and left it at that. Lesbians, on the other hand? They took rejection incredibly badly, they took any kind of male attention badly, and frequently started shit that makes frat fights look tame, if they thought they were being cock-blocked OR clam-jammed, in their pursuit of another women.
 
but maybe human beings are human beings? and people mostly like the same things and dislike the same things
No.

We're talking about how a straight man would react to a woman intimating that she wants to bear his offspring versus a man intimating that he wants to obliterate his butthole. These aren't equivalent-- the parties aren't interchangeable, and it makes no sense to extrapolate based on gay men who have different priorities, capacities, and culture on account of being gay men.

@TerribleIdeas™
Dude admits he was raped as a child, women that claims to love him treats him like shit.
It may be that she's treating him like shit, but the fundamental issue regardless is that she's having a visceral subconscious reaction to him exposing his vulnerability, and she can't temper it.

On some level, she thought he was a strong person who could protect her, and she wanted that-- most women want something like that. He's telling her that he was repeatedly raped as a child, and that makes her lose confidence in something that was integral to her attraction to him. She can't help but feel this way because she doesn't even know what she's feeling or why she's feeling it.

It's like piloting an airplane with all the fuel level indicators broken, then being left to wonder why you're decreasing in altitude and speed after you ran out of gas because you don't know that you did.
 
Men are absolutely disposable, because you absolutely require women to continue the species, but you need very few men to retain genetic diversity.
@TerribleIdeas™ - yeah, except that's bullshit, unless you live in a fucking bubble environment. If not for contemporary civilisation, created by men, the species would not have survived, because you need a relatively high number of men to protect the tribe, while also having enough men to go hunting, to teach skills to the younger generation of men, which men have specialised, and for the general mental well-being of the family unit.

Stop with this men are expendable bullshit, that has never been true.
 
Última edición:
I can't reply to TerribleIdeas - I'm not disregarding your anecdata but I am going to point out that you're comparing your experiences as a bouncer in a bar to women's experiences living our lives in regular situations. People go to bars to get laid and get fucked up. A man dealing with unwanted sexual attention in that specific situation leaves work and it's over. Women don't have that option.

The way that people think about this has changed radically over my lifetime, also, like I said, straight men used to generally understand that they were imposing on you by making a pass and people in general understood that this was something *unpleasant.* That's changed and there is this weird idea that men would like it so women should like it and it's not an imposition.

I do think that current women are hysterical psychos about unwanted attention in general and you just have to develop skills to deal with it and move on, but the corollary of that is that men who whine and complain about how lonely they are pathetic losers and need to develop skills to create and maintain relationships and move on. shit's hard all over.

as for the whole issue of men opening up to women and women not liking it: It's impossible to tell what the actual situation is based on reading what people say online. so who the fuck knows what's going on with that one reddit example (plus that particular example is extreme and very sad) or anything else people say on the internet. irl, and not having to do with sudden disclosure of brutal childhood rape, my experience is that some people are selfish and don't give reciprocal support. most women are mutually emotionally supportive and when they're not, selfish women get frozen out. men tend to not realize this because how would you, it happens among women. I have men in my life who are around my own age who come to me for emotional support and are very much not available for reciprocal emotional support, but are hugely supportive in other ways. but there are other men, particularly younger men, who treat me and female friends of mine like free therapists. they're super pikachu faced shocked when they end up alone with no one wanting to hang out with them or returning their calls.

I don't know what is happening here. I don't know how the older men learned that if you want to have a nice supportive warm lady friend who listens to you be sad about your personal life for an hour, you might want to be around to help her move heavy furniture. I don't know why the younger men think that showing up to a party, monopolizing a woman in a corner with a blowbyblow description of your last breakup, and then not even getting her a drink is going to lead to social success and personal happiness.
 
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Stop with this men are expendable bullshit, that has never been true.
If it was never true, we wouldn't have developed the "dudebros and war doggoes fight the short-faced bear/saber-toothed tiger/rampaging mammoth, wahmens and kiddoes hide in the cave or run like hell" instinct that to this day manifests in guys having a protective instinct for anyone weaker than them.

I get it, you don't feel disposable. Neither do I. But in the scheme of "shit that perpetuates the species/culture/society" our feelings don't matter a whole hell of a lot.
 
If it was never true, we wouldn't have developed the "dudebros and war doggoes fight the short-faced bear/saber-toothed tiger/rampaging mammoth, wahmens and kiddoes hide in the cave or run like hell" instinct that to this day manifests in guys having a protective instinct for anyone weaker than them.

I get it, you don't feel disposable. Neither do I. But in the scheme of "shit that perpetuates the species/culture/society" our feelings don't matter a whole hell of a lot.
What? Humans drove Mammoths to extinction.

Edit - this has quickly turned into one of the worst threads on the site.
 
Última edición:
What? Humans drove Mammoths to extinction.

Edit - this has quickly turned into one of the worst threads on the site.
you just think that because you're pissed off that people are telling you it's biological reality that males are expendable

which is extra retarded of you because if you're using a computer in English and you have the leisure to be fucking around like this on a Monday, your male ancestors won the genetic lottery so why are you mad
 
as for the whole issue of men opening up to women and women not liking it: It's impossible to tell what the actual situation is based on reading what people say online. so who the fuck knows what's going on with that one reddit example or anything else people say on the internet. irl, my experience is that some people are selfish and don't give reciprocal support. most women are mutually emotionally supportive and when they're not, selfish women get frozen out. men tend to not realize this because how would you, it happens among women. I have men in my life who are around my own age who come to me for emotional support and are very much not available for reciprocal emotional support, but are hugely supportive in other ways. but there are other men, particularly younger men, who treat me and female friends of mine like free therapists. they're super pikachu faced shocked when they end up alone with no one wanting to hang out with them or returning their calls.

I don't know what is happening here. I don't know how the older men learned that if you want to have a nice supportive warm lady friend who listens to you be sad about your personal life for an hour, you might want to be around to help her move heavy furniture. I don't know why the younger men think that showing up to a party, monopolizing a woman in a corner with a blowbyblow description of your last breakup, and then not even getting her a drink is going to lead to social success and personal happiness.
The younger men haven't had the mystifying experience of a woman screeching like a harpy begging them to open up, only to cut and run the second they do so. They're probably so open with you and your friends because they've taken women at face value when they say they want something. Just my observation and experience. I see good and bad points on both sides of this argument but there's only one person projecting like an IMAX in this thread...
 
What? Humans drove Mammoths to extinction.
Eh, debatable. Being giant and fluffy as the last glacial maximum came to an end was distinctively maladaptive for a warming world, as the bigger and better insulated you are, the harder it is to thermoregulate by shedding excess body heat. Humans may have hunted mammoths but to think we managed to exterminate them all on our lonesome is...kinda ridiculous given how few humans there would have been.

Regardless, you're still shoring up my own argument: the dudebros and their doggoes went out mammoth hunting, knowing that one or more of them might not come back, while the women stayed back with the kids tanning hides and foraging and whatever else went into making a life when flint + stick was high-tech weaponry.
 
The younger men haven't had the mystifying experience of a woman screeching like a harpy begging them to open up, only to cut and run the second they do so. They're probably so open with you and your friends because they've taken women at face value when they say they want something. Just my observation and experience. I see good and bad points on both sides of this argument but there's only one person projecting like an IMAX in this thread...

that doesn't make any sense, because one of your girlfriends says she wants something from you in an intimate relationship, you think all your female friends do?
 
one of your girlfriends
:story: Thinking that's the sole basis for my reasoning got a genuine belly laugh out of me. Thank you. It's been more women than I can even remember that I have seen/heard complaining about men being emotionally closed off. I've heard every variation of wishing males were more emotionally intelligent/open that there is. It never ends well. Male relatives said it would happen to me. My father told me it would happen to me. Better informed friends advised me against it. My dumb ass still let one of your kind wear me down. All those people were near-instantly proven right. To a man, every single one of my friends has gone through similar. Demanding it while simultaneously finding it repulsive is as inherent to women as XX Chromosomes in my experience.

You do realize that you immediately thinking that is very indicative of why you have so many problems with people using you as "free therapy"? I'm not going to ask you to powerlevel but if I were a betting man at least some of those were cases just like this.
 
This thread keeps coming to mind every time I sit down to get some work done and get interrupted which is approximately a zillion times a day.
Women are high in neuroticism trait.
I get the sense from this thread that none of the dudes have ever experienced *no one ever leaving you alone for five minutes sweet Lord can I just finish this email OMG JUST TWO MINUTES COULD I PLEASE HAVE THAT APPARENTLY NOT*
Almost like as a woman, you haven't communicated your boundaries and stuck by them. Almost as if lack of assertiveness is your problem, not the fault of everyone who isn't psychic and comes over to you to say hello.
In order to get anything done that needs focused concentration, I literally have to not tell anyone where I am going, ensure that someone else is available for emergencies for my dependents, and not make any eye contact with anybody around me.

all the man has to do to get that is close the door.
We state our boundaries and are firm about them. Women don't, and its a fault of their sex. You're experiencing interruptions because you're not assertive, so you have to use subterfuge to "get a moment's peace." Maybe you feel put upon all the time because you're allergic to saying no. Maybe that fault of women has nothing to do with men.
 
Women are high in neuroticism trait.

Almost like as a woman, you haven't communicated your boundaries and stuck by them. Almost as if lack of assertiveness is your problem, not the fault of everyone who isn't psychic and comes over to you to say hello.

We state our boundaries and are firm about them. Women don't, and its a fault of their sex. You're experiencing interruptions because you're not assertive, so you have to use subterfuge to "get a moment's peace." Maybe you feel put upon all the time because you're allergic to saying no. Maybe that fault of women has nothing to do with men.

and men are low in trait agreeableness.

so it's almost as if men don't do what's necessary to nurture and maintain relationships, so they have fewer, so they don't need to do all this boundary stuff.

it's your problem, not the fault of everyone who isn't psychic and doesn't realize you'd like them to come over and say hello.

we put a lot of time and energy into maintaining relationships, so we have them. Men don't, and it's a fault of their sex. you're experiencing isolation because you're not nice, so you have to hope for white sharia to "get a girlfriend." maybe you feel lonely all the time because you're allergic to being useful to people. maybe the fault of men has nothing to do with women.
 
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