Law Hungary and Poland's victory against globalism - Hands off, EU!

Hungary and Poland's victory against globalism

The joint Polish-Hungarian victory forced the spirit of globalism back in the bottle

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Hungary and Poland's victory against globalism

archived 22 Dec 2020 00:15:20 UTC

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Moving away from the events of several days ago during the EU summit and removing the static and competing claims, we can confidently say that Dec. 10, 2020, was an important moment in the history of the Union — a day which saw the Hungarian and Polish governments achieve an outstanding success. If, in, say, twenty years from now, someone writes on the tumultuous history of the European Union, I am convinced that this day will have to be remembered as a highlight and historic turning point.


But the basic question is: in what way can the victory of Viktor Orbán and Mateusz Morawiecki be quantified? Why is this a success and not a failure, as some of the domestic left-liberals claim who have divorced themselves from reality?


We can talk about victory and success for three basic reasons. Firstly, the direct stake was whether the globalist liberal mainstream of the EU would be able to inflate the requirements of the rule of law or fill them with inappropriate content to such an extent that they could eventually punish "rebellious" Hungary and Poland — not only legally, but mainly financially.


As I explained in more detail in my article on Dec. 12, "We Won, but the Fight Continues", the rule of law is meant to guarantee a legal framework against arbitrariness, and keep politicians from formulating unilateral political, ideological and value expectations under any pretext.


The rule of law guarantees that democratic functioning and ideological expectations and values must be separated. It also safeguards against arbitrariness which can indeed be expected of members in a democratic community, while the question of how a given member state organizes its life within the rule of law is their sovereign decision.


However, what Orbán and Morawiecki achieved is demonstrating that the clauses that the rule of law and the liberal, globalist values have nothing to do with each other. Under the heading of the rule of law, member states cannot be required to accept migration as a human right, to receive and integrate migrants, to provide housing, citizenship, etc., nor can they be required to practice gender-based jurisprudence, allowing same-sex marriage and adoption of children by same-sex couples. All these are the internal affairs of a sovereign state. So far, the scope of the Union has not been extended, either in terms of the rule of law or in accordance with the current Lisbon treaties.


But this is not just about migration and family policy. The mainstream of the EU, if we had let them, would have come up with more and more liberal, globalist-cosmopolitan demands in the future than just what the quasi-rule of law demands.


For example, after a while, they would have "ideas" about institutionalizing the Muslim religion, then removing nation-state borders, pushing Christian symbols into the background, making gender theories mandatory in school curriculums, and last but not least, making it mandatory to set up gender-neutral toilets.


Not to mention that the agreement also states that, from the point of view of the rule of law, member states can only be criticized and punished on the basis of concrete and itemized reasoning and facts, and precludes proceedings against member states on the basis of general systemic problems. This is a great achievement because it also rules out the possibility of pure political attacks.


What this clause also does — at least for the here and now — is to shove back the spirit of globalist "values" back into the bottle.
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Good changes, although there's lots of work to still be done.

 

[Snekposter]

So we'll ignore how Poland attempted, repeatedly, to turn their supreme court into a monkeyhouse with the wannabe authoritarian leaders the keyholders? Okay then.

Wasn't the whole deal started off with judicial reform attempts that would give the Polish legislature the right to confirm or deny judges instead of the judges themselves choosing replacements? Hardly seems anti-democratic to me.

 

[KingCoelacanth]

So we'll ignore how Poland attempted, repeatedly, to turn their supreme court into a monkeyhouse with the wannabe authoritarian leaders the keyholders? Okay then.

The previous Polish government loaded their supreme court with judges (judges that the EU liked) right after they got voted out of power, but before the new government stepped in. The new government basically said "yeah, nah".

According to what? In a political and social sense, it's a union between adults that gets tax-benefits, without any kind of religious shenanigans in the background, there is no argument to be had why it shouldn't be given to homosexuals. The foundation for this opposition to gay marriage is the bible, which in itself is the opposite of a modern democratic and secular state...

And in Hungary its specifically a union between a man and a woman, in both a political and social sense. Homosexual families can't have their own kids, so there's no reason for them to get any benefits. Deal with it.
Your view of democracy just seems to revolve around getting petty liberal values enforced. Like if Xi Jingping suddenly announced gay marriage and HRT for 5 year olds, you'd be rallying around this "democratic decision".

But that's not what this is all about. Poland wants to act strong, grab some gibsmedats and refuse anything from Brussels which would make them hold up their end of the bargain: Playing by the EU's rules.

Poland and Hungary are playing entirely within the EU's rules, they wouldn't be able to pull these stunts if they weren't. You're fixated on the idea that these two nations staying in the EU is a complete drain on the system, but its not. The trade benefits (usually from factories, easy markets to sell to, etc.) give the larger nations enough reasons to keep them in. The "gibs" are just investments to strengthen a trade system that largely benefits France and Germany.

You have no issue with Macron brutalizing his own citizens, acting no different than the HK police during the protests, simply because of gay marriage. "Protesters are getting their eyes shot out, police are raiding hospitals looking for victims, but at least the gays are getting tax breaks via secular, government approved unionship". Your view of democracy has absolutely nothing to do with democracy, you're just a child who accepts any reasoning that leads to the social changes you have been told are important.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Wasn't the whole deal started off with judicial reform attempts that would give the Polish legislature the right to confirm or deny judges instead of the judges themselves choosing replacements? Hardly seems anti-democratic to me.

A reform that acts as a muzzle to judges, making it impossible for them to point out when the government starts going crazy. And it allows the government to fill it with pro-government judges, too. Sounds kinda problematic to me tbh.

Like if Xi Jingping suddenly announced gay marriage and HRT for 5 year olds, you'd be rallying around this "democratic decision".

Don't be a moron. And by that, I mean don't assume such bullshit of me, just cause I dare having a different opinion than you on some matter. That's some /pol/-tier shit right there.
I picked it, since it's the most simple aspect of this.

Homosexual families can't have their own kids, so there's no reason for them to get any benefits. Deal with it.

So, do people without kids not get benefits then? Will a marriage with one infertile party be exempt from these benefits?

Poland and Hungary are playing entirely within the EU's rules, they wouldn't be able to pull these stunts if they weren't. You're fixated on the idea that these two nations staying in the EU is a complete drain on the system, but its not. The trade benefits (usually from factories, easy markets to sell to, etc.) give the larger nations enough reasons to keep them in. The "gibs" are just investments to strengthen a trade system that largely benefits France and Germany.

It's something that both sides profit from, don't put words in my mouth by pretending I said anything else. However it is obvious that Poland and Hungary love to take advantage of EU subsidies, international investment, tax-free trade and so on while they feel no obligation to play by the EUs rules. If these rules are so abhorrent, they can leave. Otherwise, they need to shut up. What they do instead, this token protest against the EU, while they profit off the EU, makes them look like fools to me.

You have no issue with Macron brutalizing his own citizens, acting no different than the HK police during the protests, simply because of gay marriage.

Nah, I just didn't feel like even commenting on that apples and oranges bullshit of comparing the yellow vests protest to Hong Kong. What, is the US like Xi Jinping for trying to stop the BLM riots, too?
I mean, you had to up the levels of stupidity by bringing in some farcical statement about gay marriage and how that's what matters to me. I don't support the turmoil that's going on in Paris, but your false equivalence is utterly retarded.

 

[KingCoelacanth]

Nah, I just didn't feel like even commenting on that apples and oranges bullshit of comparing the yellow vests protest to Hong Kong. What, is the US like Xi Jinping for trying to stop the BLM riots, too?
I mean, you had to up the levels of stupidity by bringing in some farcical statement about gay marriage and how that's what matters to me. I don't support the turmoil that's going on in Paris, but your false equivalence is utterly retarded.

There's a difference between trying to stop a riot and brutalizing people for protesting the government.
Poland and Hungary are countries where people can protest their government peaceful.
In France you get your skull cracked open with a club and your eyes shot out with rubber bullets.
Poland and Hungary are objectively more democratic than France. Your fixation about fag marriage being some holy underpinning of society is blinding you to this.

 

[byuu]

There's a difference between trying to stop a riot and brutalizing people for protesting the government.
Poland and Hungary are countries where people can protest their government peaceful.
In France you get your skull cracked open with a club and your eyes shot out with rubber bullets.
Poland and Hungary are objectively more democratic than France. Your fixation about fag marriage being some holy underpinning of society is blinding you to this.

Hungary is infamous for excessive police force at government critical protests.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Poland and Hungary are countries where people can protest their government peaceful.
In France you get your skull cracked open with a club and your eyes shot out with rubber bullets.

>No protest ever went violent in the sacred lands.
>No protest ever went without violence in dastardly france.

If you really believe that nonsense, there is no point in dragging this out, really. It has barely any point when you repeat this nonsense about me being fixated on gay marriage when I already told you how silly that is. Tüdelü.

 

[Snekposter]

A reform that acts as a muzzle to judges

Oh God damn, does that sound fucking marvelous to me as an American given how much shit court decisions have foisted upon the populace. I sure as fuck don't want government-paid tranny surgeries for convicted rapists who are serving their prison sentences, do you?

As to the "Poles want the money but not the strings" argument, I do agree there to an extent, however since the Germans and French are simultaneously using European fiscal policy to create an economic dependence on them, I find it hard to sympathize. Perhaps if the EU had focused on trade instead of total economic union I would find greater merit to it, but given that they're pumping money in solely so it can be taken back out to their own benefit, the idea that they should get to dictate terms of domestic politics is insulting, and further, were the USA to attach these sorts of terms to foreign aid you'd be crowing about imperialism.

 

[draggs]

To become a member state, a nation has to subscribe to the ideals and legal ideas of the EU, Hungary and Poland just want no-strings attached gibsmedats and this board is too far up its own redpilled ass to realize this. Part of this is in effect meant to discourage nations from abolishing core aspects of democratic procedure, like what they did with their little supreme court bullshit recently.

They enjoy doing the song and dance that they really reeeaaally do not like the EU while lining their pockets with EU funds. If they were really honest about this shit, they'd have left years ago, but there's no money in that, so they stick around and do some token bitching every now and then.

You've been trying to find or invent a reason ever since Hungary and Poland told Mutti Merkel to fuck off you cant make us allow tens to hundreds of thousands of low education low skill socially regressive Muslims into our countries. It has nothing to do with muh democratic norms which is ironic as fuck considering the multiple times the EU has ignored national referendums concerning the EU that didnt go the way Brussels wanted. The EU cries out in pain as it bullies you.

 

[potato fan]

Hungary and Poland just want no-strings attached gibsmedats

The "strings" are already there in the form of one-market policy that prohibits governments from using protectionism. So big strong wectern european companies can come into markets of ex-soviet block countries and squash or buy whatever little copmetition there is, be it ineficient old commie companies, or young and weak new companies.
Yes, the newer EU members get gibs. In return old EU members companies can have unopposed access to non trivial new market of 100 million people, and ability to wire profits back to HQ countries.

Those are the strings that were there from the begining and everyone understood this is how it works
now they want to add conditions about accepting globohomo agenda to get gibs, which is not what had been agreed.

 

[ConfederateIrishman]

>No protest ever went violent in the sacred lands.
>No protest ever went without violence in dastardly france.

If you really believe that nonsense, there is no point in dragging this out, really. It has barely any point when you repeat this nonsense about me being fixated on gay marriage when I already told you how silly that is. Tüdelü.

Bottom line they should have kept it as a diplomatic and economic union; It has gotten too greedy pushing for a liberal political union and now it getting it's veto openly abused by Poland and Hungary as they have lost all respect for your institutions.

 

[TowinKarz]

Not abused, but used as the only meaningful way to stop the forceful implementation of globalist socio-economic policy on a nation, against it's popular desire and make it clear "Hey, Brussels, telling us we can't pass our own national laws? Inside our own borders? If you don't like them? That isn't what we signed up for when we entered this so-called "economic" pact".

The rules say they can veto it, for any reason, so they did.

 

[Snekposter]

The "strings" are already there in the form of one-market policy that prohibits governments from using protectionism. So big strong wectern european companies can come into markets of ex-soviet block countries and squash or buy whatever little copmetition there is, be it ineficient old commie companies, or young and weak new companies.
Yes, the newer EU members get gibs. In return old EU members companies can have unopposed access to non trivial new market of 100 million people, and ability to wire profits back to HQ countries.

Those are the strings that were there from the begining and everyone understood this is how it works
now they want to add conditions about accepting globohomo agenda to get gibs, which is not what had been agreed.

To be more specific about matters, all contracting done with EU funds has to be open to companies from the entire EU. If Poland wants to say, build some new roads, they can't restrict the bidding to Polish companies or even Eastern European ones, but it has to be open to the entire EU... and I'll let you guess just how competitive a Polish firm is with outdated methods and poor(er) education compared to a German one. The free travel has also caused a massive brain drain, as anyone with education or even prospects heads west for the bigger paychecks. Now, they do send some money back home but... that hasn't exactly worked out well for Mexico, now has it?