"High Fantasy" and its setting - & why is it often mirroring the "Medieval" or "Renaissance" period.

[Outer Space Traveller]

Greetings, folks.

I had a question I'd like to read more people discuss, and perhaps see if it is just me or perhaps a few others have had this question before. First things first, the term "High Fantasy" here I'm applying is centered towards "the story is set in a universe/world that was created by the author" (I.E GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire), with a particular style of magic, priesthood, sense of realism (maybe), so on so forth.
Second of all, and most important, why does it seem to get the period that is analogous to the Medieval & Renaissance period of Europe, with particular things from Engligtenment age (medicine, perhaps) in the story?

There are a few stories that break this rule:
The Powder Mage Series, by Brian McLellan - One that mirrors technology at the Napolleonic era;
Craft Sequence, by Max Gladstone - One that would mirror technology at a futuristic and our era;

And essentially, to make my question: Have any of you ever wanted to read a story (high fantasy in particular) where the society would be closer to our own, or at least something like 20th century, 19th century, so on so forth?

 

[Adam Basile Woodrow]

Not really. The problem is, the more advanced society is, the more unrelevant magic becomes.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Not really. The problem is, the more advanced society is, the more unrelevant magic becomes.

Perhaps? I think the real issue is how magic and technology interact creates a lot of complexity. Arcanum built a whole game around this premise. Legend of Korra integrated it into the world building, while Grim Dawn takes an "all of the above" approach. In the Elder Scrolls, meanwhile, magic IS the technology of the setting.

 

[FuckMeGentlyWithAChainsaw]

Second of all, and most important, why does it seem to get the period that is analogous to the Medieval & Renaissance period of Europe, with particular things from Engligtenment age (medicine, perhaps) in the story?

Well, the whole style evolved out of adaptions of (Northern) European traditional tales like Vösungasaga, Nibelungenlied, the Eddas Chansons de geste, the Arturian cycle etc. These stories where often seen as historical when they where written down, but clash with a modern understanding of history.
That what Tolkien used to make his "new" world out of. By remaining true to a historical mode of storytelling it no longer fit into actual history, so he made up a whole new world to fit it in.
A similiar thing happened for Robert E. Howard for whom "Sword and Sorcery" was coined. He wrote historical tales but got tired of the amount of research he had to do for each one, so instead made up the prehistoric world of Conan where he could use real world influences without having to source everything precicely.
As for modern "High Fantasy", I'm not sure what you mean, you use a very custom definition. The style is very historically based. Would the Napoleonic Era with magic be High Fantasy for you? Is Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell something that would count?

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

Well, the whole style evolved out of adaptions of (Northern) European traditional tales like Vösungasaga, Nibelungenlied, the Eddas Chansons de geste, the Arturian cycle etc. These stories where often seen as historical when they where written down, but clash with a modern understanding of history.
That what Tolkien used to make his "new" world out of. By remaining true to a historical mode of storytelling it no longer fit into actual history, so he made up a whole new world to fit it in.
A similiar thing happened for Robert E. Howard for whom "Sword and Sorcery" was coined. He wrote historical tales but got tired of the amount of research he had to do for each one, so instead made up the prehistoric world of Conan where he could use real world influences without having to source everything precicely.
As for modern "High Fantasy", I'm not sure what you mean, you use a very custom definition. The style is very historically based. Would the Napoleonic Era with magic be High Fantasy for you? Is Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell something that would count?

Sorry, I didn't mean to be using a custom definition in particular, it's more of my understanding of what it meant. To me, a High Fantasy setting has magic, sorcerors, creatures and it is set in a place that is usually "not our world".
But now that you mentioned, Robert E. Howard would perhaps fit, for being distant, much like how J.R.R. Tolkien did the world of Arda.
As for Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, not quite. It's not magic per se, but more the fact of "A world and setting with empires that mirror the British Empire, the Second German Reich, France", and so forth.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

High fantasy is usually when the magic level is incredibly high and it's very common place. Low Fantasy is where magic is rare and it's basically dung age medieval europe.

As for the question, at least in anime it's basically the norm. Both actions, morality and social customs are just modern tokyo person. In general it's rare in fiction to make society not modern unless you massively play up old age tropes to the point they make no logical sense.

 

[Safir]

First things first, the term "High Fantasy" here I'm applying is centered towards "the story is set in a universe/world that was created by the author" (I.E GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire), with a particular style of magic, priesthood, sense of realism (maybe), so on so forth.

Lord of the Rings is THE high fantasy. It's set on Earth and has no priesthood and only two wizards (who are actually angels), there are no wizard guilds or wizard schools or anything.

with a particular style of magic, priesthood, sense of realism (maybe), so on so forth.

I like how you put "sense of realism" here, because the "style" of magic and priesthood is now most exemplified by videogame reality isekai and these stories don't give the slightest fuck about realism.

Second of all, and most important, why does it seem to get the period that is analogous to the Medieval & Renaissance period of Europe, with particular things from Engligtenment age (medicine, perhaps) in the story?

Because it's the origin of the genre: knightly romances and Tolkien by way of D&D and vidya. Anachronisms exist to make the world nicer and because the authors are lazy and retarded, can't do research and don't know what goes into technology.

Have any of you ever wanted to read a story (high fantasy in particular) where the society would be closer to our own, or at least something like 20th century, 19th century, so on so forth?

Yes, but I don't think anyone can pull this off.

Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (the videogame) is "industrial revolution in a fantasy world" and it works because magic is opposed to "technology" in that setting. Yes it's a worn trope that get stupid very fast in the hands of a bad writer but in the game it still works because post-medieval technology emerges, is recent, and hasn't gone too far.

Another conceit that works is magic emerges, which is traditionally done on IRL, for familiarity; an example is Shadowrun.

What you seem to propose is to make an advanced world where magic exists and has always been a part of it.
This has A LOT of implications that most writers are completely unable to think through, not being polymaths.

Does magic develop? Magic is traditionally highly individual, technology requires masses of people. Has magic always been powerful? If yes, how did technology develop? How did "modernity" develop? That society would look nothing like ours. Or does magic develop in parallel? What happens then? Is it intermeshed somehow? Are there tech and magic societies? How do they match up? Are they in conflict? What spells exist? A single magical effect existing can completely fuck up what you wrote. Is magic a particle or a wave?

This is why magic + modernity results in either "urban fantasy" (arbitrary gay effects) or the Masquerade (magicians have to hide OR ELSE).

---
Anyway, I haven't read decent high fantasy set anywhere in quite a while, perhaps since I was 13. Consider that even the "standard" world of D&D is not remotely internally consistent, and I don't just mean the inevitable setting-breaking effects from specific spells but the whole social model which should be focused purely on adventuring. Societies, nations and religions would exist purely on the whim of powerful adventurers who'd regularly nuke each other and delegate monster-fighting to lower-levels. The difference between "the elf kingdom" and "the dwarf kingdom" would exist purely because of some guys' or gals' aesthetic preferences. The difference between the sexes would not exist at all, anyone can be born with okayish stats and make it to the top.

I think I would like a Les Cinq Cents Millions de la Bégum style literally-tyrannical "religious" magic country vs Communist egalitarian wizard-killing tech country. But I doubt anyone can do it without moralfaggotry not to mention the requisite knowledge -- what would a satisfying resolution be? Maybe I'm too old for fantasy fiction.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

It's not magic per se, but more the fact of "A world and setting with empires that mirror the British Empire, the Second German Reich, France", and so forth.

Try Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus Trilogy. Its the early 20th Century in Imperial Britian, wizards are the ruling class, and history went very differently as a result (the American Revolution is just strating in book 2, I think.)

Gladstone being an insanely powerful wizard is a plot point.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

@Safir cannot quote you, but that was a pretty good write-up (better than my OP, heh).

The sense of realism is indeed something that I do take seriously. Perhaps some anime do not take seriously (the Isekai genre is not something I watch, but I hear from time to time), but for a book it is good to keep the sense of "grounding" (meaning plausible deniability, supension of disbelief, etc.).

Thanks for the recommendations, too!

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Lord of the Rings is THE high fantasy. It's set on Earth and has no priesthood and only two wizards (who are actually angels), there are no wizard guilds or wizard schools or anything.

Nah, LotR is between low and high (medium?) spectrum. There are fantasy races, but magic itself is much rarer and it's destined to disappear completely. DnD is more high fantasy with floating cities, multiple dimensions and mages in their towers in the middle of the city.

Does magic develop? Magic is traditionally highly individual, technology requires masses of people. Has magic always been powerful? If yes, how did technology develop? How did "modernity" develop? That society would look nothing like ours. Or does magic develop in parallel? What happens then? Is it intermeshed somehow? Are there tech and magic societies? How do they match up? Are they in conflict? What spells exist? A single magical effect existing can completely fuck up what you wrote. Is magic a particle or a wave?

I like the idea that magic being individualistic makes it an easy tool of oppression and elitism. While technology basically evens the scale since you need to 10 years to cast a fireball (if you have the aptitude) but a few weeks to be decent shot an M16.

 

[Constellationzero]

Right now I'm reading Clive Barker's Weaveworld. I get the impression that the Seerkind (like fairies and wizards) actually live and dress pretty similar to the Cuckoo world (regular world). There's references to 1896 several times, indicating that that was the last time some of the Seerkind left the Weave and entered the real world.

It's pretty batshit, but I love me some Clive Barker.

 

[The Ugly One]

I had a question I'd like to read more people discuss, and perhaps see if it is just me or perhaps a few others have had this question before. First things first, the term "High Fantasy" here I'm applying is centered towards "the story is set in a universe/world that was created by the author" (I.E GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire), with a particular style of magic, priesthood, sense of realism (maybe), so on so forth.

Yes, it's because people in general are not very creative, so they copy Tolkien.

Second of all, and most important, why does it seem to get the period that is analogous to the Medieval & Renaissance period of Europe, with particular things from Engligtenment age (medicine, perhaps) in the story?

Because that's what Tolkien picked, and since that's who they're copying, that's whose themes they ape. It's not just Tolkien's fault, of course. Magic isn't very interesting in high-tech landscapes. You need a world that is mysterious, a map that isn't filled in, phenomena that can't be explained. And moreover, a low-tech world other than medievalish Europe is too alien to your potential readers to really hook them. People know what castles and knights are, more or less.

 

[holyhandgrenade]

Couple recommendations:I read the first book in the Whimbrel House series by Charlie Holmberg and it's a little gay but the premise is pretty much what you're asking about magic is part of reality in the 1860's they have government offices and everything most of the magic is fairly weak though
the Arcane Ascension series by Andrew Rowe is an interesting play on the technology v magic concept the characters use magic to make technology to improve their magic.
Not really a super "magical" series but the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik is about what if the Napoleonic wars had dragons so at least a little modern kind of a meh series overall but the premise is fun
Obviously, The Dresden Files series does magic in the modern world and the magic system etc is pretty well fleshed out. I stopped reading it a while back though maybe if he ever actually finishes the series I will pick it back up again.
The magician's series explores magic in the modern world but it also jumps between our world and a fantasy world and has furry shit in it
If you like trashy urban fantasy The Hellequin chronicles are magic in modern day but the main character was born around the same time as King Arthur
There's options for more modern fantasy you just can't expect them all to be as good as Lord of the Rings. A lot of authors get around the magic v technology question by simply ignoring it or having only a minority of people have magic because those are the easiest ways to do it

 

[AeroGavin Rossdale]

Because that's what Tolkien picked, and since that's who they're copying, that's whose themes they ape

Bit of an odd ball choice, but old Warhammer Fantasy took a ton from Tolkien but the Empire of Man was at least in the early Industrial Age. So wizards and steam engines co exist. Dwarfs made it to Zeppelins and gyrocopters before the world exploded. Most advanced tech was the Skaven, and they made it as far as early radios iirc. It was powered by evil magic rocks, but still a radio.

 

[Monolith]

I'd like to recommend The Last Horizon, a far-future fantasy/sci-fi (that currently has 2/6 books out).

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Why? Because fantasy as a genre is essentially just a modernized version of European mythology, fairy tales and other such traditional stories that all come out that same era. Or that came out of later gunpowder eras, but were set in "the past" which at that time meant castles and knights. What else is there to say? Japanese fantasy is all set in some vague time before Senogku Jidai. Chinese fantasy is all set way back in their ancient days.

I think that for modern authors anything from the Renaissance on also feels too modern in attitude. The entire spirit of the Enlightenment contradicts the spirit of magic. And most people in America (don't know if it's as bad in Europe) are completely ignorant of the Reformation, unable to draw inspiration from it.

 

[draggs]

Harry Turtledove's Darkness series is WW2 with magic. Instead of tanks they have super-rhinos. Instead of planes they have dragons. Instead of rifles they have what are basically laser guns powered by magical energy. Etc. But they also have a lot of modern (for WW2) technology, factories, metalworking, that kind of stuff

It's 6 books and Turtledove's prose is middling at best. Has some good characters in it though

 

[Skeletonized Cow]

I do kind of think that part of the problem is that as modern technology emerges, a proper empirical science should emerge too. In real life that science largely scrubbed away a lot of the magical and mystical ideas from civilization. (Generally) people no longer live by the diktats of astrologers, kings and leaders don't have shamans and magicians making divinations, the great mystical beasts of myth have been stricken from the zoological catalogues. Science has allowed us to explain the world to a sufficient degree that it really requires none of the mystical or magical ideas that once were so common.

And so stories that center around such things tend to retreat back to the era when it was still strong, when the fae still pranced in the woods, Westernesse was still over the ocean somewhere, and witches still could be sought out for dark magic. It's the place where it most naturally fits.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

only two wizards

Excuse me?

 

[Lazy Printer]

And essentially, to make my question: Have any of you ever wanted to read a story (high fantasy in particular) where the society would be closer to our own, or at least something like 20th century, 19th century, so on so forth?

Oh, i had an ideia for a short story called "the goblin catcher" well the name says it all it set in the xxi century and the main characters works for a public organ responsible for dealing with goblins that have became a urban plague, the city is a shell of itself and theres a constant sense of tragedy in the background. Anyway, writring a history like that would need criativity and knowlogde, writers now days seems to like both. Plus theres a lot of holes that you can fall in to when dealing with this concept one of them is describing magic like a science, its kill the sense of wonder, kills the magic the mistery plus a elf with a sniper rilfe feels wrong. ( I swear that i posted this asnwer already anyways, i too lazy to write everything again )