HBO’s Watchmen - NOTHING EVER ENDS...Except When It Should

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

I think that Alan Moore was right that he intentionally wrote Watchmen to be "unfilmable."

Because, here's the thing: The Giant Squid at the end is an awesome ending to the comic book. Throughout the entire 12 issues, we got this dark and gritty deconstruction of superheroes. These were "heroes" that were washed up, pathetic, and crazy while the threat of nuclear war (a very REAL fear back in the 80's) was looming over everyone. The world that Watchmen had set up was very grounded in reality. The Squid is a giant subversion of what we had been reading in the previous issues.

Veidt literally called the Giant Squid "The World's Biggest Practical Joke." Humanity is so paranoid and crazy that of course it would take a giant squid monster to shake sanity into people to avoid nuclear destruction. For me, it's genius storytelling.

Framing Doctor Manhattan misses the point of the graphic novel. Veidt created the squid because he thought that humanity would only get along under the circumstances of a common enemy. That common enemy would be something other worldly or alien in order for the ENTIRE planet to get along. Manhattan is an American creation. Both the graphic novel AND the movie emphasize this. If Manhattan killed millions of people, I don't think it would bring about world peace. It would have the entire planet blaming America for creating the monster/god, thus giving Russia a reason to wipe the country off the map via nuclear weapons (which is what Veidt wanted to avoid).

Yeah, sorry, the movie's ending sucks dick, and I hate it. Zack Snyder kept selling this movie as "edgy" and "unique." Bullshit. If this movie had balls, it would have stuck with the original ending.

Ah, 10 years later, and I'm still pathetically salty about it, apparently.

Another thing that makes it clear that Lindelof clearly doesn't understand Watchmen is that he basically said that Veidt "had to drop the squid, he crunched the numbers" then further went on to say that he would have done the same thing.

Um, no, Damon, he dropped the squid because years of being a superhero rotted his fucking brain and took away the ability to come up with a solution that didn't involve destruction.

I think that alone should tell you why this show was a bad idea altogether, woke bullshit aside. The original comic, great as it is, has also aged badly too when you consider that a) the Cold War ended peacefully without any uniting tragedy and b) years later, an actual attack on New York happened, and it didn't make the US any friendlier with their supposed allies.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Also, re: Snyder Watchmen, and how it holds up compared to HBO Watchmen. I kinda have a love and hate relationship with Snyder Watchmen.

I actually disagree with the whole notion that actionizing the violence misses the point of the graphic novel- in fact, if anything it only doubles down on the satirical aspect of the story, especially with the ridiculous slow-mo and badass music. You have these mentally unstable sociopaths and their fight scenes are presented as badassery. Now, think about why the main character's name is Rorschach. It's a jab at the whole superhero worship thing, because people read Superhero comics projecting their ideas of a perfect hero onto them, and in a way that's more or less what a rorschach test is. The same idea applies to these action scenes to me. It seems to me as if Snyder did this to double down on Moore's point about how heroes are sociopaths in fancy suits. In this case, they're sociopaths who can do BADASS ACTION SCENES!!!. It's kinda brilliant, really.

Unfortunately though he fucked all that up by robbing the story of its most crucial aspect: an outside context problem. That's why replacing the squid with... uh, Doctor Manhattan doesn't work at all.

That's more or less the same mistake HBO's Watchmen makes. There's no outside context problem to show humanity what they really should be scared of. It's bad enough that the show swings everything to one side, but the squid was meant to be more or less a boiling point of everybody's fears and anxieties. You can't just bring a squid into this climate and call it emblematic of systemic racism, so the show was pretty much fucked to begin with.

tbf Alan Moore's idea of Rorschach is kinda shit. He tries to criticize the Randian Hero as a crazy person following their own justice but it's hard to dislike the guy when the alternative is either trying to manipulate society or blending in it while ignoring its corrupt nature.

I also dislike the giant squid since it is far harder to justify as an event that will unite the world (starting from the fact that the world governments should come to the same conclusion that it was a suicide attack that's a prelude for an alien invasion). Dr. Manhattan being the source is easier to rationalize (he is a known threat and a wild card).

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

tbf Alan Moore's idea of Rorschach is kinda shit. He tries to criticize the Randian Hero as a crazy person following their own justice but it's hard to dislike the guy when the alternative is either trying to manipulate society or blending in it while ignoring its corrupt nature.

I also dislike the giant squid since it is far harder to justify as an event that will unite the world (starting from the fact that the world governments should come to the same conclusion that it was a suicide attack that's a prelude for an alien invasion). Dr. Manhattan being the source is easier to rationalize (he is a known threat and a wild card).

Again though, remove the outside context problem from Watchmen and you're gutting the core of it.

That's one of many reasons the series is total nonsense. People saying that the show is true to the comic must not have read the comic, because the squid is a symbol of everybody's fears and anxieties about the Cold War boiling over. It's basically Veidt's way of telling humanity, "Here's that threat you're all worried about, now will you finally shut the fuck up?". True, Watchmen does not have the brightest view of humanity (understatement), but having one particular humanistic threat completely defeats the purpose of everything that came beforehand. So taking the "we're all to blame" angle and swinging it to WHITE MAN BAD for a whole nine hours is basically doing what the movie did with its twist but even more overkill.

Also, I think you'd enjoy the current sequel, "Doomsday Clock". The Squid itself is one of many talking points and it actually shows that Veidt's plan not only did NOT work but actually only made things worse. I'd explain further but I think you should just read it for yourself, it's a lot better than I expected.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Again though, remove the outside context problem from Watchmen and you're gutting the core of it.

That's one of many reasons the series is total nonsense. People saying that the show is true to the comic must not have read the comic, because the squid is a symbol of everybody's fears and anxieties about the Cold War boiling over. It's basically Veidt's way of telling humanity, "Here's that threat you're all worried about, now will you finally shut the fuck up?". True, Watchmen does not have the brightest view of humanity (understatement), but having one particular humanistic threat completely defeats the purpose of everything that came beforehand. So taking the "we're all to blame" angle and swinging it to WHITE MAN BAD for a whole nine hours is basically doing what the movie did with its twist but even more overkill.

Also, I think you'd enjoy the current sequel, "Doomsday Clock". The Squid itself is one of many talking points and it actually shows that Veidt's plan not only did NOT work but actually only made things worse. I'd explain further but I think you should just read it for yourself, it's a lot better than I expected.

I see the squid more of an alien threat (in the non-literal meaning). It's an entity that is completely inhuman, extremely dangerous and acting beyond our comprehension. Meaning it's the perfect diversion in the escalating situation since you cannot fathom it to be man-made. But Dr. Manhattan can be argued to be just that - Completely inhuman, extremely dangerous and acting beyond our comprehension.

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

I see the squid more of an alien threat (in the non-literal meaning). It's an entity that is completely inhuman, extremely dangerous and acting beyond our comprehension. Meaning it's the perfect diversion in the escalating situation since you cannot fathom it to be man-made. But Dr. Manhattan can be argued to be just that - Completely inhuman, extremely dangerous and acting beyond our comprehension.

Yeah, though it still makes absolutely no sense.

For one, it turns the whole story into what TV Tropes describes as an "Idiot Plot". For another, it completely contradicts John's characterization, and both are for the same reason: John basically can see the future. He's an omniscient God of some sort, and he of all people should know that Veidt is using his powers to frame him, but he doesn't, and it just makes the whole story make no fucking sense.

Then the movie still has the gall to have John blow up Rorschach, which is out of character in the movie- if anything, by the universe's logic, John should be encouraging him to tell the world that DM is being framed. This really shows Zack Snyder's inability to understand comics, which, of course, would be taken to absurd extremes in the absolute garbage pile that would end up being Batman V Superman.

 

[Y2K Baby]

I think the name itself makes it obvious.

No, it has other meanings besides that.

Even more obvious when you read Moore's quotes about how much he dislikes Batman.

Why

tbf Alan Moore's idea of Rorschach is kinda shit. He tries to criticize the Randian Hero as a crazy person following their own justice but it's hard to dislike the guy when the alternative is either trying to manipulate society or blending in it while ignoring its corrupt nature.

I also dislike the giant squid since it is far harder to justify as an event that will unite the world (starting from the fact that the world governments should come to the same conclusion that it was a suicide attack that's a prelude for an alien invasion). Dr. Manhattan being the source is easier to rationalize (he is a known threat and a wild card).

Idiot.

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

No, it has other meanings besides that.


Why

I'm not saying it doesn't.

Also, the fact that he wrote The Killing Joke should answer your question.

 

[MemeGrey]

John basically can see the future. He's an omniscient God of some sort, and he of all people should know that Veidt is using his powers to frame him, but he doesn't, and it just makes the whole story make no fucking sense.

From the Watchmen Wiki

Veidt hinders Doctor Manhattan with a tachyon generator that interferes with Doctor Manhattan's ability to see the future

Jon can only perceive his future and he makes it clear that too him, there isn't really a future or a past, it's all present. Dr. Manhattan has incredible power but he has no real willpower, he just does what he does because it is already happening/happened/going to happen.

 

[Y2K Baby]

I'm not saying it doesn't.

Also, the fact that he wrote The Killing Joke should answer your question.

No, you're gay. You're the only person I've heard this interpretation from. How the fuck do you project your ideals onto someone who clearly has their own and sees zero ambiguity in them? Your ideas are dumb.

Rather, when creating super heroes, people implant their ideas of "good" into them and Rorschach is obviously a parody of that. Not people reading them though. That's fucking stupid.

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

From the Watchmen Wiki

Jon can only perceive his future and he makes it clear that too him, there isn't really a future or a past, it's all present. Dr. Manhattan has incredible power but he has no real willpower, he just does what he does because it is already happening/happened/going to happen.

I love how this only makes the twist make less sense lol

No, you're gay. You're the only person I've heard this interpretation from. How the fuck do you project your ideals onto someone who clearly has their own and sees zero ambiguity in them? Your ideas are dumb.

Rather, when creating super heroes, people implant their ideas of "good" into them and Rorschach is obviously a parody of that. Not people reading them though. That's fucking stupid.

Yeah I just hate when that happens

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

Not sure why some of you are blaming *me* for Rorschach being a black dude now... It's not like I approve of it.

And yet they still had the gall to make Rorschach a white supremacist icon.

Yet they introduce "Black Oklahoma" into the universe. Which is pretty problematic in and of itself, given that Oklahoma is a pretty damn sexist musical that has aged about as well as an outhouse in the Atacama. You'd think that for a show that goes out of its way to make grand, sweeping generalizations about white supremacy, it would get its own values right.

EDIT: I'm also just now realizing too that they made Hooded Justice black too. Kiiiiiinda disingenuous to have white supremacy be the focus but then willingly associate blacks with the symbol of a noose, no? Unless they were trying to be ironic, but the show itself has zero self awareness, so.

 

[UnKillFill]

And yet they still had the gall to make Rorschach a white supremacist icon.

Yet they introduce "Black Oklahoma" into the universe. Which is pretty problematic in and of itself, given that Oklahoma is a pretty damn sexist musical that has aged about as well as an outhouse in the Atacama. You'd think that for a show that goes out of its way to make grand, sweeping generalizations about white supremacy, it would get its own values right.

EDIT: I'm also just now realizing too that they made Hooded Justice black too. Kiiiiiinda disingenuous to have white supremacy be the focus but then willingly associate blacks with the symbol of a noose, no? Unless they were trying to be ironic, but the show itself has zero self awareness, so.

You know, I don't even think the guys who made Rorschach II a black dude in the comics are the same people who straight up blackwashed Doctor Manhattan into a black dude in the Watchmen TV show. Kind of a funny coincidence though now that I think about it.

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

You know, I don't even think the guys who made Rorschach II a black dude in the comics are the same people who straight up blackwashed Doctor Manhattan into a black dude in the Watchmen TV show. Kind of a funny coincidence though now that I think about it.

Even still, isn't it kind of funny that in an attempt to capitalize on the comic's left-leaning angle, they only made it more offensive?

A number of people will resort to using the fact that Rorschach reads The New Frontiersman, a right-leaning paper that blames blacks and jews for everything, as a justification for the show's attempt to spin Rorschach into a white supremacist icon.

The irony being that I think, in a way, Rorschach's views being misinterpreted by nu-KKKers is one of the very few things about this show that actually DOES make sense. Rorschach dumps his findings into TNF's mailbox before adventuring to Antarctica with Nite Owl. Using the things I've said about Rorschach and how his name is basically a play on words with regards to mental projection, it makes complete sense to me that his apathetic views would be misinterpreted as right-wing.

And yet, they STILL fuck it up in the show. I do get that using The Comedian would technically have made more sense, but with this show being SO fucking insistent on being on the nose abut literally everything, hearing 7K's speeches about how "The blacks will look up and shout save us" makes me wonder if this was initially done as parody. And holy fuck I wish it was, because that actually would have been very Watchmenesque.

Fuck, this show has more in common with the movie than most people are giving it credit for, and I fucking hate it.

 

[UnKillFill]

Even still, isn't it kind of funny that in an attempt to capitalize on the comic's left-leaning angle, they only made it more offensive?

A number of people will resort to using the fact that Rorschach reads The New Frontiersman, a right-leaning paper that blames blacks and jews for everything, as a justification for the show's attempt to spin Rorschach into a white supremacist icon.

The irony being that I think, in a way, Rorschach's views being misinterpreted by nu-KKKers is one of the very few things about this show that actually DOES make sense. Rorschach dumps his findings into TNF's mailbox before adventuring to Antarctica with Nite Owl. Using the things I've said about Rorschach and how his name is basically a play on words with regards to mental projection, it makes complete sense to me that his apathetic views would be misinterpreted as right-wing.

And yet, they STILL fuck it up in the show. I do get that using The Comedian would technically have made more sense, but with this show being SO fucking insistent on being on the nose abut literally everything, hearing 7K's speeches about how "The blacks will look up and shout save us" makes me wonder if this was initially done as parody. And holy fuck I wish it was, because that actually would have been very Watchmenesque.

Fuck, this show has more in common with the movie than most people are giving it credit for, and I fucking hate it.

If you watched even a single episode of this shitshow, then you have mad respect from me. I got pissed off enough just reading the summaries... And I was only ever even a tangential fan, in that I have read the original, and seen the Snyder movie...

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

If you watched even a single episode of this shitshow, then you have mad respect from me. I got pissed off enough just reading the summaries...

FWIW, I did watch the whole thing, but mainly as a back burner thing, primarly because I am very busy, and because I have like 87 other things I'm watching right now.

I think the show did pull up its socks in episodes 8 and 9, episode 8 in particular being the one legitimately good episode of the whole thing. But only because its first episode left a hideous first impression and it felt like a hatchet job done for saving face. It kind of reminded me of Joss Whedon's Dollhouse, where it was awful until its last few episodes. Too little, too late.

Keep in mind too that I'm not even a "huge Watchmen fan", and don't jerk off over its universe like a lot of others do. I simply love the comic and, though the movie is very meh, do appreciate Snyder's ATTEMPT at it. So for me of all people to be making these complaints... great job, HBO, I hope you're happy.

 

[Y2K Baby]

I love how this only makes the twist make less sense lol

Yeah I just hate when that happens

Ver archivo adjunto 1094812

That doesn't prove your point, idiot. An alternate perception, sure, but hardly interpretation. That's still not projecting values, that's just the gamer nation not caring Rorschach is a stinky boy.

 

[NeroRisotto]

Not watching Wokemen Wokepeople, but wanted to share this:

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

I love how this only makes the twist make less sense lol

Yeah I just hate when that happens

Ver archivo adjunto 1094812

Moore is almost a good writer in spite of himself. If you read his introduction to V for Vendetta, he talks about how he wanted his Thatcher-Nazis to be cardboard cutouts, but they got away from him and started developing personalities. Because he writes everything in one draft, he didn't have time to "fix" it, and I think something similar happened with Rorschach- he was (ironically) too good at giving characters depth to make the caricature of Batman/the Question he'd wanted to make.

Of course, the ending of Watchmen (the book) is the weakest part because it breaks it's own premise: you're beaten over the head with how Dr. Manhattan is the ONLY super-being, EVERYTHING else is the same until the climactic showdown happens- then suddenly boom, psychic powers and flying kung-fu. I honestly think that Moore wrote himself into a corner somewhere in the middle and decided to bullshit his way out via exploding psychic squid.

However, if Moore is a good writer in spite of himself, Lindeloff bears no such burden. It's like he skimmed the Cliff's notes while tabbing between them and his Blacked.com subscription.

 

[2021Murder]

From the Watchmen Wiki

Jon can only perceive his future and he makes it clear that too him, there isn't really a future or a past, it's all present. Dr. Manhattan has incredible power but he has no real willpower, he just does what he does because it is already happening/happened/going to happen.

Thats why hes my favorite character, hes sort of like what would happen if the spineless nerd who wished he got super powers actually did. DM never stood up for himself or made any decisions for himself his entire life. His dad decided his job, his friends and lovers decided to make him theirs. Its only when millions of people die that he actually feels happy and excited because he doesnt know whats going to happen next.

And then minutes later he gets vaporized. He gets better, but if he didnt it basically would have been a great end to that arc. The spineless wimp, who feels empty because something else is making all the decisions in his life immediately suffers once he has to make a decision on his own.

Plus the fact that the superpowers didnt solve his problems or make him better. He was still as sad and withdrawn and empty as he was before. Heroism is a personality trait more than anything and its usually not in the people that would be better off having it but instead its usually in psychotic manlets.

Also people seem to forget thar Moore originally intended for Rorschbloch story to end with him apprehended and thrown in jail. It was only late into the writing that he ended up getting broken out. And Moore explains that it was the characters and story that caused it to happen.

Also the psychics powers were pretty low powered to nearless useless to the villian that had them. its why they had to genetically breed a monster to have a super intense version and even then it only lasted a few seconds during its death.

Another thing that hack that wrote The Leftovers should have us see is at least one person with PTSD because of it. That was the whole reason for the psychic ability in the first place give everyone such mental scarring that it becomes a legitimate problem for the countries causing them to have even bigger reason to unite against this epidemic. Also a bit sad how Lindeloff never advanced space travel either considering the alien squid foe was supposed to be from way far out in space.

And another thing. Rorschbloch is a guy who never used a slur against his black therapist and is best friends with a jew so obviously he is pretty accepting compared to the average guy born in the 30s. TNF was the only publication that supported superheroes and vigilantes justice IIRC. Which should be rather obvious considering the minutemen was led by admitted neo-nazi and white supremacist.

Its sort of like how if youre anti-war and anti-censorship you dont really have any leftist websites to go to meanwhile you have a shitload in the right. Most of which are run by lolcows

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

Thats why hes my favorite character, hes sort of like what would happen if the spineless nerd who wished he got super powers actually did. DM never stood up for himself or made any decisions for himself his entire life. His dad decided his job, his friends and lovers decided to make him theirs. Its only when millions of people die that he actually feels happy and excited because he doesnt know whats going to happen next.

And then minutes later he gets vaporized. He gets better, but if he didnt it basically would have been a great end to that arc. The spineless wimp, who feels empty because something else is making all the decisions in his life immediately suffers once he has to make a decision on his own.

Plus the fact that the superpowers didnt solve his problems or make him better. He was still as sad and withdrawn and empty as he was before. Heroism is a personality trait more than anything and its usually not in the people that would be better off having it but instead its usually in psychotic manlets.

Also people seem to forget thar Moore originally intended for Rorschbloch story to end with him apprehended and thrown in jail. It was only late into the writing that he ended up getting broken out. And Moore explains that it was the characters and story that caused it to happen.

Also the psychics powers were pretty low powered to nearless useless to the villian that had them. its why they had to genetically breed a monster to have a super intense version and even then it only lasted a few seconds during its death.

Another thing that hack that wrote The Leftovers should have us see is at least one person with PTSD because of it. That was the whole reason for the psychic ability in the first place give everyone such mental scarring that it becomes a legitimate problem for the countries causing them to have even bigger reason to unite against this epidemic. Also a bit sad how Lindeloff never advanced space travel either considering the alien squid foe was supposed to be from way far out in space.

And another thing. Rorschbloch is a guy who never used a slur against his black therapist and is best friends with a jew so obviously he is pretty accepting compared to the average guy born in the 30s. TNF was the only publication that supported superheroes and vigilantes justice IIRC. Which should be rather obvious considering the minutemen was led by admitted neo-nazi and white supremacist.

Its sort of like how if youre anti-war and anti-censorship you dont really have any leftist websites to go to meanwhile you have a shitload in the right. Most of which are run by lolcows

That Lindelof can't even get small details like Rorschach's views right really shows what a real dumpster fire it is.

Oh and it pisses me off that he decides to give someone his powers in the show, because fuck it, Watchmen needs a Mary Sue!