General Wrestling Discussion

I am a WWE drone that occasionally watches other promotions when there's stuff I'm missing from WWE. I've been watching MLW the past 3 months and really enjoying it. The hardcore matches and luchador stuff and announcing from Jim Cornette is great. I loved the hardcore Loser Leaves Town match they just had with Mance Warner against Sami Callihan, it was a blast and Jim Cornette sold it like a mad man.

POP HIS HEAD LIKE A PUMPKIN, OL' MANCER!

👺
 
It's heartbreaking how many great wrestlers in NXT I don't wanna see called up to the main roster. Not even for matches with Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles.

Much as I'd love to see Gargano, Cole, WALTER, and so many others wrestle the many great talents on the main roster, they'd all be better off in AEW. WWE today has the best roster they've ever had. I shouldn't be actively hoping it doesn't get better, yet I am anyway.
Undisputed Era is going to end up like The Revival. More comedy geek fodder.
 
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Just saw this on /wooo/, it was too good not to share. Also, it was posted in light of this weird story from a few days ago.

Davey Boy Smith Jr., quit [New Japan]. He hasn’t been happy for some time. There were more a lot of small issues and frustration about not being used as well as things that build up from the past. There were issues because on the night before WrestleMania, he wanted to go to the WWE Hall of Fame because they were inducting Jim Neidhart, who is part of his family, as well as Bret Hart a second time. New Japan was running MSG and he kept asking whether he’s booked on the show so he could make plans either to do the Hall of Fame or not. Even as late as two weeks before the show he couldn’t get an answer. He also told them he’d rather go to the Hall of Fame for family reasons than be an afterthought on the show or used in a meaningless way. He ended up working multiple shows in the New York area that week but not the MSG show. New Japan let him work the Dynamite Kid tribute show that Satoru Sayama and Hisashi Shinma put on but there’s heat between Massao Hattori and Shinma.

Several months back, Smith had pitched an idea of he and Lance Archer doing a tribute to Dynamite on a New Japan show where he’d score a pin after a Dynamite Kid style diving head-butt. Gedo turned him down and told him he was too big to do that move and instead wanted to do the angle where stallionie T would go nuts and get DQ’d for a chair shot. The idea is that they wanted to turn stallionie into a wrestler who at times would just snap, basing it off the Ken Shamrock WWF character. Of course that fell apart when stallionie and Barreta didn’t sign new deals and instead signed with AEW. He had also asked for New Japan’s permission to work Impact and didn’t get permission. He asked what the problem was and they said “Fucking Jeff Jarrett and TNA,” and were still mad about how Okada was booked. Smith told them that Jarrett was long gone, and that he was going get a big push. The people at Impact were very high on him. New Japan told him he couldn’t go.

Somehow this turned into a miscommunication because when Lance Archer asked about them getting more dates this year, or that the team would be focused on more, the office told him they thought Smith was going to Impact. Except they had just told him he couldn’t do so. The office said that’s what Gedo told them. He ended up signing with MLW where he’s supposed to be put in a title program with Tom Lawlor, although MLW knew that New Japan had first dibs on his dates. There were reports he was going to ROH, but that’s not the case. He’s working MLW. With him no longer working New Japan, that could, like what happened with Michael Elgin, open up the door for Impact, although we’re told there has been no recent discussions with him with that promotion. Impact did have big plans for him originally.

tl;dr - "Fucking Jeff Jarrett and TNA" even though he hasn't been there in years and TNA has finally felt like a different promotion since Anthem bought them.
 
Oh come on, Okada was in Impact when it was TNA almost 10 years ago and Jarrett hasn't been with Impact for 5 years now. What a BS reason, they clearly were stiffing the guy again and again for nothing.
 
"Once Vince discovers you've got some comedic timing, you're through, he'll make you 'wacky.'' That and dancing, Vince can't ever find out you're funny or you can dance, or you're finished"-Jon Moxley

That can best be illustrated by examining the career of Robert Maillet, aka Kurrgan. The dude green as hell but had a great look to him and his entrance music helped add to his aura of intimidation.


Don Callis was teaching him how to work like a monster heel and how to throw convincing punches (Robert was a really nice guy IRL so he had a hard time actually mounting offense because he didn't want to hurt anyone for real). I don't know how far he would've gone had they stayed the course, but it all took an immediate turn when he and Don went to a party Vince was hosting. Robert had brought his wife and Vince had seen the two of them dancing together. The old nutter found the sight of a seven foot man dancing ao amusing that he put the kibosh on their original plans and made Kurrgan into a goofy dancing babyface.

Before
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After
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The funny thing is that after the party, Don pulled him aside and told him the exact same thing, almost word for word, that Dean said: never do anything funny in front of Vince McMahon, because that's all he'll want to see out of you. Granted, I don't think Kurrgan really minded the change all that much considering how much trouble he had playing a heel, but it's indicative of just how long this has been an thing with Vince.

Edit: I misquoted Don. His actual words were "Don't do anything in front of Vince that you wouldn't want to do in front of millions of people"
 
Última edición:
So I was going through my social media fandoms when I came to a realization: Professional wrestling has become a fandom. It's no different from the MCU fandom. Do you know how many Autists I've found that list WWE as a fandom? So fucking many. They're who prop up the WWE despite massive low ratings.

I think I realize now what Cody is doing. He's going after this demographic that I can only describe as the Funko demographic. The Hot Topic Demo. He wants to create a new kind of wrestling war, a wrestling fandom war. They will tune in and watch AEW because it's popular on twitter and tumblr and all the retarded places fandom tards propagate.


He's embracing fandom.
 
Professional wrestling has become a fandom.

You can't become what you already are. The demographics for pro wrestling in America have been shifting for decades. During the era of people like Chief Jay Strongbow and Bobo Brazil, wrestling was mostly watched by average joes. It became to a blue collar sport with the rise of southern style wrestling and over time it shifted to a younger, edgier audience with ECW and the Monday Night Wars. At this point in time, wrestling is very much a part of geek culture and it really isn't that much of a shock given how aggressively it's pushed and promoted by the media as a whole.

As for the wrestling fandom war, you're speaking as if it's any different than the Monday Night Wars. The only difference between then and now is that the general interests of their audiences outside of wrestling. Go back in time and endow the fans of yesteryear with the immediate access to social media that we have today and you'll see just how similar their posts read out. In fact, I'd even go so far as to suggest that the audience for WWF Raw and WCW were even more spergtastic due to their immense investment in the products they consumed. You don't won't see any of that enthusiasm nowadays given how the front runner of professional wrestling is an inept old foggy who laughs at poop jokes and refuses to let anyone rise to the level of a Hulk Hogan tier megastar in fear of them heading off for greener pastures.
 
You can't become what you already are. The demographics for pro wrestling in America have been shifting for decades. During the era of people like Chief Jay Strongbow and Bobo Brazil, wrestling was mostly watched by average joes. It became to a blue collar sport with the rise of southern style wrestling and over time it shifted to a younger, edgier audience with ECW and the Monday Night Wars. At this point in time, wrestling is very much a part of geek culture and it really isn't that much of a shock given how aggressively it's pushed and promoted by the media as a whole.

As for the wrestling fandom war, you're speaking as if it's any different than the Monday Night Wars. The only difference between then and now is that the general interests of their audiences outside of wrestling. Go back in time and endow the fans of yesteryear with the immediate access to social media that we have today and you'll see just how similar their posts read out. In fact, I'd even go so far as to suggest that the audience for WWF Raw and WCW were even more spergtastic due to their immense investment in the products they consumed. You don't won't see any of that enthusiasm nowadays given how the front runner of professional wrestling is an inept old foggy who laughs at poop jokes and refuses to let anyone rise to the level of a Hulk Hogan tier megastar in fear of them heading off for greener pastures.
I'm not criticizing it, I'm really ecstatic about all this.

This is great! I love the fact that Cody is going to make a promotion that appeals to us.

Can you really say Vince embraces the fandom?
 
I'm not criticizing it, I'm really ecstatic about all this.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ib-LlwYLTzgThis is great! I love the fact that Cody is going to make a promotion that appeals to us.

Can you really say Vince embraces the fandom?

I can't find it now, but someone had an interesting theory regarding Vince's steadfast refusal to listen to the audience. People have warmed up to him now that he's officially a part timer, but it it's hard to forget how much hatred John Cena recieved as the company's top babyface. That said, his presence still did great business for the company. As much as people hated him, it didn't matter to Vince because they would still pay money just to come in and boo him out of the building. His merch sells were second to none and he still drew crazy numbers despite being so universally reviled. As big as Hogan was, when people started getting tired of him they gradually began shift their attention over to WCW.

Cena's success as a draw might combined with a lack of genuine competition might've sent Vince the message that the quality of his product is immaterial because people are too devoted to his company to stop paying into it. I can hardly fault him for coming to that conclusion, but one would think that he'd realize that the main reason people continue to watch his shit is because none of his competitors had the financial muscle needed to promote themselves their companies like he did. It doesn't matter if Impact Wrestling has fun matches, or if Lucha Underground had colorful and likable characters, or if ROH blows that house down with a 5 star classic. If you don't have Fuck You money like Vince McMahon, you can't hang with Vince McMahon.

Look at this man's net worth and weep.

811983


Meanwhile you have AEW, some indie smark company ran by some old indian motherfucker I've never heard of. If this dude thinks he can play with the big boys, then-

811987


oh
 
All that money hides the fact that its an ice-cold promotion with zero pop culture relevancy. The PPVs and NXT Takeovers are fun in a vacuum, yet watching the product to get there is a 20+ hour a month bore. The company has lost 40 percent of its under 40 audience in the past two years. The attendance sucks and there's tarps all over the place. A lot of the house shows run at a loss and they keep cancelling the Monday Smackdown shows. The merchandise sales aren't there and when's the last time you saw anybody wearing stuff like WWE shirts in public? Watching the show live sometimes has crowds so silent its eerie, its like every other show is something you'd only expect from an infamously silent crowd from a joke region they always run like Corpus Christi, Texas. The WWE network has existed for 5 years and still isn't at their 2 million subscriber target number and is actually going backwards. The real kick in the nuts is WWE is getting the lowest total viewership numbers in its 20+ year history. They are in a situation where the current top champion in the company has had 2 3rd hours that were 2 million flat, a few years ago they could get close to 4 million viewers every hour. The typical RAW and Smackdown shows now are fighting against last year's Christmas episodes to be the least watched television shows in promotion history! Apart from the Saudi money and the mondo television deals, every other way of measuring the health of this promotion indicates that it is in the toilet. They're too busy counting their money to care, it appears.

AEW can only ever exist because the company is this ailing. There's so many reasons for it, but the black-and-white numbers are a bloodbath.
 
All that money hides the fact that its an ice-cold promotion with zero pop culture relevancy. The PPVs and NXT Takeovers are fun in a vacuum, yet watching the product to get there is a 20+ hour a month bore. The company has lost 40 percent of its under 40 audience in the past two years. The attendance sucks and there's tarps all over the place. A lot of the house shows run at a loss and they keep cancelling the Monday Smackdown shows. The merchandise sales aren't there and when's the last time you saw anybody wearing stuff like WWE shirts in public? Watching the show live sometimes has crowds so silent its eerie, its like every other show is something you'd only expect from an infamously silent crowd from a joke region they always run like Corpus Christi, Texas. The WWE network has existed for 5 years and still isn't at their 2 million subscriber target number and is actually going backwards. The real kick in the nuts is WWE is getting the lowest total viewership numbers in its 20+ year history. They are in a situation where the current top champion in the company has had 2 3rd hours that were 2 million flat, a few years ago they could get close to 4 million viewers every hour. The typical RAW and Smackdown shows now are fighting against last year's Christmas episodes to be the least watched television shows in promotion history! Apart from the Saudi money and the mondo television deals, every other way of measuring the health of this promotion indicates that it is in the toilet. They're too busy counting their money to care, it appears.

AEW can only ever exist because the company is this ailing. There's so many reasons for it, but the black-and-white numbers are a bloodbath.

To be sure, AEW's currenty success is built of thw shortcomings of WWE. The point I was trying to make was that WWE has hit a creative slump due Vince's dismissal of the audience. He fails time and again to realize that his cashcow John Cena wouldn't have drawn as huge a crowd despite being hated were it it not for the lack of viable alternatives during the time. I don't think you could point to another time WWF/WWE history when Vince's too star was widely rejected from the audience and he still drew great numbers in spite of it. John Cena's drawing power might've been what trained Vince to ignore the whims of his audience entirely.
 
Cena 2.0 is them force-feeding people a babyface Roman Reigns and a bunch of Shield members being faces when they really shouldn't be faces, fighting Brock Lesnar for over 4 years and thinking its "such good shit." I think its a woeful story that has a played a huge role in television viewership being nearly chopped in half from where it was 5 years ago. Yeah, Cena is at the root of the problem in a lot of ways, especially them selling the audiences as "split" and "bizarre" or that it was okay for a white meat Boy Scout babyface to get booed by the men for over 5 years. Its maddening that he never had a proper heel turn or that Roman Reigns has never had a heel turn.

John Cena's eternal babyface run and the Brock/Shield angle are their two biggest artistic failures.
 
So I was going through my social media fandoms when I came to a realization: Professional wrestling has become a fandom. It's no different from the MCU fandom. Do you know how many Autists I've found that list WWE as a fandom? So fucking many. They're who prop up the WWE despite massive low ratings.

I think I realize now what Cody is doing. He's going after this demographic that I can only describe as the Funko demographic. The Hot Topic Demo. He wants to create a new kind of wrestling war, a wrestling fandom war. They will tune in and watch AEW because it's popular on twitter and tumblr and all the exceptional places fandom tards propagate.


He's embracing fandom.
Oh yeah, for sure. iirc the Bullet Club shirts were literally the best selling t-shirts at Hot Topic. Not the highest sales for wrestling t-shirts, for ALL t-shirts at Hot Topic, the pop culture t-shirt store.
I don't have huge hopes that I'll see anything in AEW that will really appeal to me but I'm not really the target audience.
 
Go to Tumblr and search for WWE. The fandom, these people are marks. But they're a different kind of mark, they're nerd marks who know it's fake, but don't care, they're in it because it's nerdy. They aren't like you and me, they aren't smarks. They are the result of WWE pushing social media for the past ten years, the fruit of their labor. They go to the events, they watch and then go to Instagram and post their stuff. They go on DA and write fan fiction. Jon Moxley attracts the same kind of fans that worships Loki from the MCU.


Cody wants to take that fan base and if Cody takes that fan base it's going to fucking hurt WWE tremendously because that fan base is what keeps them afloat. Cody is going after the Wrestlemania crowd and Vince has no idea because it's beyond him.

Cody see's a vast opportunity to make money off a new kind of mark who will buy all the merch in the world in support of their fandom. I fully expect AEW to have a panel at this years San Diego Comic Con.
 
Go to Tumblr and search for WWE. The fandom, these people are marks. But they're a different kind of mark, they're nerd marks who know it's fake, but don't care, they're in it because it's nerdy. They aren't like you and me, they aren't smarks. They are the result of WWE pushing social media for the past ten years, the fruit of their labor. They go to the events, they watch and then go to Instagram and post their stuff. They go on DA and write fan fiction. Jon Moxley attracts the same kind of fans that worships Loki from the MCU.


Cody wants to take that fan base and if Cody takes that fan base it's going to fucking hurt WWE tremendously because that fan base is what keeps them afloat. Cody is going after the Wrestlemania crowd and Vince has no idea because it's beyond him.

Cody see's a vast opportunity to make money off a new kind of mark who will buy all the merch in the world in support of their fandom. I fully expect AEW to have a panel at this years San Diego Comic Con.
The old capeshit/nerd crowd in the preMCU days shared a decent chunk of crossover with the wrassle crowd, seems reasonable that there would be with the MCU era crowd, too.
 
Cody, the Young Bucks, they get it. I really think the Hot Topic deal made them all realize that the business is capable of being changed into a millennial pop culture thing.

Really the success of AEW is sorta a series of events that fell into place. This is going to be a long post, so if you're not a sperg for wrestling like me you can skip it:

In 2010, Colt Cabana reaches out to a t-shirt maker on behalf of his then-friend, CM Punk. Punk needs a custom-made shirt that says "I BROKE BIG SHOW'S HAND", and wants to commission it himself. Today, that t-shirt maker is ProWrestlingTees.com. Combined with Colt's move into podcasting, Cabana also uses the t-shirt maker to make his own merch much more easily than before, and starts to make a very good living for himself as an independent wrestler with various other interests, thus demonstrating that it is, indeed, possible to hustle and make a living outside the WWE or, at that time, TNA.

If we really want to trace things back, I think we should start at Punk's pipebomb promo. Technically we can go way back to, as mentioned before, Omega leaving Deep South Wrestling and taking a chance on working Japan full time, but that didn't necessarily get the ball rolling on all this happening, it just put Kenny in the right place to be there when stuff did start taking shape and he could actively participate in furthering it. That promo, particularly "Maybe I'll defend the belt in New Japan Pro Wrestling...maybe I'll go back to Ring of Honor...", was the moment even the most casual WWE fan now had the prospect of looking at the wider wrestling world so clearly placed on TV, as it appeared the potential for Punk showing up in either place could be integrated into a WWE main event storyline. It didn't lead to that, obviously, but you have to think it got a lot of attention on those places.

It also just so happened that around that time was when NJPW was getting its renaissance on track, with Tanahashi and Nakamura firmly established as their top stars (the year began with Tanahashi dethroning Kojima for the IWGP title at Wrestle Kingdom V) and the Kidani-led project to get Okada and Naito in the main event just about to get underway, particularly Okada's return the next year. That said, yes, it has to be pointed out that at this time Okada was in TNA getting absolutely nothing to do while on excursion, but it was during this time and while in TNA that he made contact with people like the Bucks. ROH, meanwhile, gets bought by Sinclair near this time, in June of 2011, and while Sinclair has clearly never had designs on pumping in enough money to get ROH to the next level, it at least stabilized the company and turned it into a more secure place to get full time work for some wrestlers. Things remain pretty stable for the next couple of years, until early 2013: NJPW books an angle where Prince Devitt betrays Ryusuke Taguchi, teams up with Bad Luck Fale, and starts making little finger gun gestures at the camera and toward his opponents, leading to not only a hugely successful foreign heel stable being formed, but having Bullet Club serve as a sort of gateway for western fans to start noticing NJPW more, while also offering more full-time roster spots to foreign talent. Early in the stable's run, Okada, just over a year since his return from excursion in TNA, recommends that NJPW bring the Bucks in to join the gaijin stable as their junior heavyweight tag team.

2013 is also around the time that the storyline begins that eventually gets Cody into his Stardust gimmick, an idea he runs with at first, but eventually leads to diminishing creative returns. Attempts to get to work more with his brother, to integrate his father, and to get his ideas heard and taken seriously in WWE aren't really working the way he wants them to, and frustration is building for him. Around this time, Ring of Honor and New Japan begin a working relationship that sees talent exchanges, Young Lion excursions, and each promotion's belts defended on the other's bigger cards at times. The Bullet Club brand begins to spread with more North American exposure via this relationship. It is notable that TNA has slipped considerably during this time, and ROH, while bigger than ever, is limited in their growth, again, due to Sinclair not looking to invest too heavily in it. A bit later, AJ Styles can't come to an agreement with TNA on a new contract and leaves for NJPW, suddenly bringing a whole lot of new eyes to the product as he joins Bullet Club the same night that Devitt has his final match before leaving for NXT. AJ main events, wins the IWGP title, and soon Wrestle Kingdom 9 is getting aired on American PPV through Global Force Wrestling (no, seriously, that's who allowed it to happen), which just so happens to feature an IWGP Jr. title match involving a newly-signed and heel-turned Kenny Omega, who's immediately spending a whole lot of time around the Young Bucks, the trio quickly christening themselves the "Elite" squad within Bullet Club.

2015: Samoa Joe leaves TNA, like AJ Styles before him, and returns to Ring of Honor unannounced. Shortly afterward, Joe arrives in NXT unannounced. While WWE quickly used a clause in Joe's contract to lock him into an exclusive deal, the message is clear - if you're a big enough name and want to bank on yourself, the wrestling terrain is shifting to the point where you can negotiate the kind of contract that wouldn't have been imagined possible just a couple of years earlier. Next domino to fall: AJ wants to get back to spending more time working in the United States, and is looking to either sign with WWE or return to TNA on a better deal now that he's upped his name value again. He approaches Matt Jackson about coming with him as a package deal, but Matt tells him that while he's grateful, he and Nick had just signed new contracts with ROH and NJPW. AJ instead departs at just about the same time and negotiates new deals alongside Bullet Club members Gallows and Anderson, instead, to get them all into WWE. This opens the door to Omega getting booked to forcibly remove Styles from Bullet Club and assume leadership over the group, and NJPW is quick to throw their booking behind him, putting him over Hiroshi Tanahashi for the Intercontinental title in his first marquee match as a heavyweight and having him become the first gaijin to ever win the G1 tournament when it's held that summer.

Seeing the writing on the wall, the final piece gets moved into place: Cody Rhodes is pushed to his limit with WWE, and wants out. He leaves, and he makes no bones about wanting to experience all the growing international and indie scene has to offer, even becoming the first wrestler to perform at WWE's Wrestlemania, TNA's Bound for Glory, ROH's Final Battle, and NJPW's Wrestle Kingdom in less than one year. He joins Bullet Club during this time and finds kindred spirits with the Elite; while often booked as adversaries on-air, the group grows close, with Cody even becoming a regular on the burgeoning "Being the Elite" YouTube channel, which starts to shift from a travelogue and documentary of life as a multi-continent wrestler to a regular vehicle for storylines, comedy, and character development.

The same night that Cody debuts in NJPW, Kenny Omega also has his first ever match against Kazuchika Okada. The "Six Star Classic" creates waves around the wrestling world, and the paradigm of what people are expecting from their wrestling is shifted. Meanwhile, Chris Jericho, content to just work WWE now and then to mostly promote new tours for Fozzy, has the idea for a "Jericho Cruise", featuring bands and pro wrestling from around the world, including NXT. WWE refuses, Jericho gets annoyed, and soon he's reaching out to New Japan through Don Callis about facing Kenny Omega at Wrestle Kingdom 12. At the same time the Elite group just gets bigger and bigger, and soon, alongside Marty Scurll and Adam Page, they're getting merchandise deals at Hot Topic for themselves and New Japan, they're getting Pop Vinyl figures, and they're getting offers from all over, including from WWE. The Bucks make public that they're interested in getting to spend less time traveling across the ocean, but the group decides they're going to do all they can to stick together, eventually getting the idea that between them they had enough talent and contacts within the industry to put together something bigger. Cody cooks up the idea for All In, and Dave Meltzer's famous tweet about ROH or any non-WWE company not being able to fill a 10,000 seat venue in 2018 gives Cody the chance to take that idea public. The show, done through ROH but also including talent from all over the growing indy scene, is a hit, and becomes a proof of concept for a new promotion.

Finally, in late 2018 and early 2019 we get the Bucks not getting the exact contract offers they're seeking from ROH and NJPW, Tony Khan getting involved, and that's that.


So AEW is in large part about Bullet Club's evolution, the limits Sinclair placed on ROH, the fall of TNA, a missed connection where AJ might've gotten the Bucks into WWE, Cody and Jericho getting sick of WWE's stifling creative environment, and then getting the right combination of personalities all getting friendly with one another, along with them connected with a long time pro wrestling fan with very deep pockets, with a ton of that stemming from CM Punk kind of giving fans a chance to see non-WWE wrestling as cool and counterculture following the pipebomb promo.
 
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