General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[Xarpho's Return]

My siblings have suggested that if I were to troon out they'd totally accept it, and while I guess that's good that they'll still love me I feel a bit weirded out since the only reason I brought it up was a joke. But, at the same time, my brother has compared my personality difference to trans people, which he has the belief of being disliked just because they are different (I wholeheartedly disagree, it's FAR more complex than that). Rather than arguing that trans people are wrong, I had made the statement that I believe that for troons there's a choice involved when it comes to interacting with society as opposed to just different personalities (not in the schizo/garbage way) with those who can't help it nor are being told that they're doing anything wrong.

Still, if I apply the same empathy, I have to wonder if there are trannies who don't want to be trannies. First off, it can't be natural since their numbers exploded between 2015 and present, and secondly, they all tend to be left-wing and/or coomers; feels that if this was natural there'd be a LOT more right-wing ones.

I only ask this because the thought of it haunts me. Have I just spent too much time staring into the abyss? Am I repressing it? Am I just some depressed sadsack who will believe obvious bullshit? I know that I can be swayed by suggestion in dark times. I remember listening to The Biggest Problem in the Universe and I had thoughts that I knew were bullshit. "Man, Los Angeles sounds like an awesome place to be!" and "Dick Masterson is hilarious and it would be cool to hang out with such a fun and funny dude"...so I know there can be influential ideas that are bullshit but I believe it.

When I think about it doesn't make sense. I'm not "in the wrong body", I don't larp as a woman online, gay shit disgusts me, and I still think troons have generally terrible taste in video games and anime. I don't think I've watched any anime in months. A few years ago I speculated about only pretending to troon out for money (which I did not do, pretending or otherwise, though it was bad optics on my part)...but why would such a thing come up if I had no tranny disposition? Thinking emoji indeed.

 

[Seventh Star]

I wish guys didn't all become troons. As a disgusting fucking faggot, I've seen a lot of great people get lost to troonery and it's saddening to see.

 

[Fart100]

Transgenderism is an incredibly complex issue and I feel that there are good arguments from kf and trans people themselves, but I feel like the shitposty nature of the site as a whole really cheapens any serious discussion. If the farms ever truly wanted to be taken seriously as a legitimate place to discuss these people and make some real lasting changes it would need to change the tone that it approaches its criticisms to be more serious instead of taking on a more comedic approach. You’ve made it clear that you don’t like these people but if you want to be taken seriously you would need to change the approach to be more serious and dial back your approach as treating them as a source of comedy because it prevents the farms from being used as a legitimate source of criticism against them. I know nobody is obligated to do that but it’s clear that you don’t like these people very much and if that’s the case you would sadly have to compromise a lot of the humour aspects and memes that you like to employ here and employ a more serious grounded tone getting to criticise the more serious and shitty aspects of the culture itself.

Getting up in arms is perfectly fine, but I have seen so many damn retards regurgitate the same points about porn culture and SRS surgeries that I think most normal people or pro-trans individuals agree their are issues with with or were already disgusting in the first place. The porn industry was well fucked even before transpeople were involved and they aren’t really that much more fucked afterwards. What you should be getting down if you want to make good points is more specifics about how they flaunt social rules and are actually pretty hypocritical and exclusionary even within their own LGBTQ spaces not accepting other parts of that community and how they damage specific parts of culture rather than more broad arguments that you want to make.

 

[Marvin]

Transgenderism is an incredibly complex issue

It's really not.

Transgenderism has a lot of complex consequences, but those are artificial.

Complex issues about core aspects of humanity don't pop up quickly like this.

It's a political movement. That a political movement is big and popular, doesn't mean that the core issue its ostensibly about is genuinely complex or important or needs to be taken seriously.

 

[Fart100]

It's really not.

It obviously is though it relies on so many factors and situations like any movement, saying that is saying like any mental illness isn’t complex, there are many different facets to why a person thinks or feels the way they do. Transgenderism is an incredibly vast movement of many different factors and it’s stupid to label everyone with the same brush, like an autistic spectrum, there’s a trans spectrum. Trans people are still affected by the same things that affect anyone, money, life circumstances, mental health differences, appearances and as seen they exist in many different fragments or types regardless of degeneracy.

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

I wish guys didn't all become troons. As a disgusting fucking faggot, I've seen a lot of great people get lost to troonery and it's saddening to see.

I don't remember last I saw a gay dude. Just, gay. Maybe a bit feminine, maybe a bit lispy, but just gay. Nah, they're aero II acetacular Omegagender zem-hole^3.

"Truly people aren't so stupid they'll surrender the term femboy to the troons" and yet here we are. Femboy meaning a stepping stone towards troondom. You'll see "non-trans" femboys doing HRT to get tits and troons avoid HRT to keep their femboy figure.

Just fucking decide, man. Wanna be a woman? okay you're now a she/her and you wanna gag on cock til you puke. That's it. No vague sexualities, no "Umm actually-".

 

[Fart100]

I think people still complaining about the use of pronouns and neopronouns are kind of stupid, it’s just a part of society and culture that’s been assimilated now and it’s been a part of the internet and IRL for so long it doesn’t really matter as much anyway. I will get pissed at some trannies if they are assholes about it but overall it’s just the way things are and people will forever choose to self identify any way they want.

 

[Marvin]

It obviously is though it relies on so many factors and situations like any movement, saying that is saying like any mental illness isn’t complex, there are many different facets to why a person thinks or feels the way they do. Transgenderism is an incredibly vast movement of many different factors and it’s stupid to label everyone with the same brush, like an autistic spectrum, there’s a trans spectrum. Trans people are still affected by the same things that affect anyone, money, life circumstances, mental health differences, appearances and as seen they exist in many different fragments or types regardless of degeneracy.

Individual people have complex lives, but society at large doesn't shoulder everyone's complexity. It can't.

If every time someone was struggling with depression or addiction or whatever, if all of society ground to a halt to assist them, nothing would ever get done. This doesn't mean that their struggles aren't important, but addressing it gets segmented in smaller, more local pieces as necessary. So starting with family and community support for issues like that.

The economy would still go on, for example.

The only time where "X is an incredibly complex issue" means anything in an argument, even a little, is when the issue is inherently complex in its cause. If it's a persistent, recurring problem in humanity, that might be a legitimate justification to elevate it beyond just the family and community support I mentioned.

Transgenderism doesn't have that. It's an entirely artificial, modern problem that's being inflated as more universal than it actually is.

What troon activists are basically doing is forcing all 350+ million Americans to have to listen to their genuinely insignificant issues by taking aspects of society hostage.

It's the equivalent of a depressed person threatening to jump off a building. Their issues should be (and can be) addressed with support from their family and friends and psychiatric treatment. But they're making it every morning commuter's problem. But not because it's inherently more important than any other depressed person's problems. That's my very important point.

You don't deal with cases like that by actually indulging them. You do it by getting them off the building and preventing people from doing that in the first place. (Locking access to the roof, for example.)

And we're really doing that, essentially. Society is no longer doing the equivalent of humoring the jumpers. The UK settled the sex v gender question in their courts. We've had some important gender related decisions in the US Supreme Court, and there's a few more cases coming down the pipeline. Various countries, including ones in the EU and the US, are shutting down the trans medical quackery.

The public at large doesn't humor this bullshit like they used it.

I'm very optimistic.

I think people still complaining about the use of pronouns and neopronouns are kind of stupid, it’s just a part of society and culture that’s been assimilated now and it’s been a part of the internet and IRL for so long it doesn’t really matter as much anyway. I will get pissed at some trannies if they are assholes about it but overall it’s just the way things are and people will forever choose to self identify any way they want.

Language policing is the lowest and dumbest rung of this conflict, to be sure.

But I think you have listened to the troons and take their arguments way more seriously than the substance merits. There's nothing wrong with listening sympathetically in good faith, but you need to be way more critical about how much staying power this stuff will have, even with the most ardent troons.

All most all of the most prominent detransitioners were absolutely adamant about their self identity. But self identity as practiced by troons is a modern concept. There's no reason to think it's going to persist any longer than the hula hoop did.

Like right now some morons are dabbling with racial self identification. That's not at all going to last. People are going to laugh at a white person who identifies as white, and in some cases get angry.

Gender self ID is going to go the same route.

Like I bet in 10 years, even in coastal blue cities in the US, if some rainbow moron is prattling to woman in a bar and they mention they identify as a non-binary, I bet the normie will openly smirk in response.

And that situation is rapidly deteriorating.

And in 15 years, I think they'll laugh openly at it.

 

[GenderCop]

You’ve made it clear that you don’t like these people but if you want to be taken seriously you would need to change the approach to be more serious and dial back your approach as treating them as a source of comedy because it prevents the farms from being used as a legitimate source of criticism against them.

In this post, I related how Sady Doyle literally quoted me directly from her own KF thread, but instead claimed all my words were from "right wing message boards"--apparently to rate more sympathy?
(You can find all my comments she replied to, on that KF thread.)

So let's be clear: they read all the threads about themselves, but can't admit it.

Lolcow Zinnia Jones (now AWOL unfortunately) practically answered his KF thread directly, as did Rhys McKinnon. Caraballo still does.
Tony Reed also replies to direct comments on occasion, by using convoluted formulations like "trans critics have said..." and so on.

So they do respond to our criticisms if they are biting enough... I think Rhys McKinnon's thread was incendiary enough to literally drive him out of his tenured position and out of the USA completely.

Literally NOBODY but KF was criticizing him at first, so we can take full credit for that one.
Although in fairness, South Park probably helped finish him off.

I will get pissed at some trannies if they are assholes about it but overall it’s just the way things are and people will forever choose to self identify any way they want.

And we can self-identify as anti-troon, if we want.

May the best man win.

 

[Fart100]

Whatever, either way the trans free future you may want isn’t ever going to happen. It’s stupid to think that way even if the entire movement improved that they would ever go away. I personally think it is a waste of time to get so up in arms about everything they do because a lot of it uninteresting and just sort of a part of life but I find taking the moral uproar a bit ridiculous. I’ll make fun of them for their entitlement and strange hang ups but other than that I find them boring to focus all my attention on. Maybe other people should do the same. You only have one life and to spend this much time being miserable over them isn’t going to help.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

I wish guys didn't all become troons. As a disgusting fucking faggot, I've seen a lot of great people get lost to troonery and it's saddening to see.

From what I can tell/have heard, there's two main types of troons, the first is the classical "gay++" type who are definitely into biological men and would probably be glad to take it in the rear, the troons are incel types and were never really into dudes to begin with.

 

[Mystery Spy]

the troons are incel types and were never really into dudes to begin with.

I personally think it takes more than being an incel though that certainly doesn't help. Trans widows have literally married and even had children with them. Most famously Mr Beasts' friend.

Even a guy that's merely an incel would know that neither women not society would never see him as a real woman and that self mutilation wouldn't actually make them female. It's a specific type of delusion that only an autistic male could make.

A male with high autism is just completely blind of how people actually think wouldn't know that what they want us genuinely impossible. Not just biologically, but also socially.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

I personally think it takes more than being an incel though that certainly doesn't help. Trans widows have literally married and even had children with them. Most famously Mr Beasts' friend.

Even a guy that's merely an incel would know that neither women not society would never see him as a real woman and that self mutilation wouldn't actually make them female. It's a specific type of delusion that only an autistic male could make.

A male with high autism is just completely blind of how people actually think wouldn't know that what they want us genuinely impossible. Not just biologically, but also socially.

They're not ALL incels and not ALL autistic, it's just the general sort of attitude and sexuality these people have. For a lot of troons, they sort of get off on the idea to force people, especially real women to accept them, that you would have to accept them as a woman and all that comes with it. You can see this with some people, the Troon Ranch people really, REALLY hated biological women. Troons are some of most misogynistic people on Earth, maybe even more than orthodox Islam and Judaism.

All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not a lefty or hanging out in Discords, my freakout a few months ago would've led to far greater problems than the compromise I took instead.

 

[Mystery Spy]

They're not ALL incels and not ALL autistic, it's just the general sort of attitude and sexuality these people have. For a lot of troons, they sort of get off on the idea to force people, especially real women to accept them, that you would have to accept them as a woman and all that comes with it. You can see this with some people, the Troon Ranch people really, REALLY hated biological women. Troons are some of most misogynistic people on Earth, maybe even more than orthodox Islam and Judaism.

All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not a lefty or hanging out in Discords, my freakout a few months ago would've led to far greater problems than the compromise I took instead.

There's definitely a misogyny element. After all, envy and hate are two sides of the same coin.

You do have a point in that it's possible some incels do it only to bother women.

Still I do think that it takes to have a mental illness, namely autism, to honestly believe "transition" could actually turn you into a real woman, or believe the delusion that people would actually treat you like one instead of the double faced treatment for virtue signal points they would get in the best case scenario.

Even the wokest person in the planet deep down knows it's all make believe. Woke women get offended if you say that look like a trans man. Straight woke men won't date or marry a transowman. This fact is obvious to everyone except people with mentally illnesses, mostly autism.

 

[Fart100]

Individual people have complex lives, but society at large doesn't shoulder everyone's complexity. It can't.

If every time someone was struggling with depression or addiction or whatever, if all of society ground to a halt to assist them, nothing would ever get done. This doesn't mean that their struggles aren't important, but addressing it gets segmented in smaller, more local pieces as necessary. So starting with family and community support for issues like that.

The economy would still go on, for example.

I think you catastrophize way too much on this one silly issue, I think a lot of these people are far more mentally ill than you imagine and this whole movement isn’t going to the death of culture as you say. There are many people here or the general public who don’t eat up as much of their time as we do obsessing over it as much as we do. kf is not a conventional place by any means,

I am as faggy as it sounds glad people don’t openly use the N word and R slurs as much as they used to in public, the kind of stuff we say here isn’t how anybody normal should speak so regardless of whatever good points you may make about specific cults or other damaging aspects of this place all of it gets lost in garbage. If this place ever wanted to be taken seriously you would sadly have to compromise on cutting out a lot of the vulgarity and other bullshit and make more points of substance rather than wanting to make jokes about them. There are really fantastic points that genuinely hit home and address points nobody else is willing to make but it gets lost amidst all of the other range of garbage that you’d see on any chan site and that hurts the farms being taken seriously.

Whether you agree or not there would need to be a serious change in compromise of how you approach your discussion to transpeople here to acknowledge both sides from their perspective and to dial back the language and memes if the site wants to be seen as a good use of judge on transgenderism overall. It’s great for trans cults and lolcows but it’s laughable to think with so much other retardation that it’s a good place for the movement as a whole. You fit. Have to compromise if you don’t want to that’s fair, but don’t get up in arms when you aren’t taken seriously by corpo’s because sadly you need to adjust your manners just a bit to be given any kind of crediblity on this issue.

It suck’s but you have to play ball and your not willing to compromise so the site gets the reputation it has as a result.

Language policing is the lowest and dumbest rung of this conflict, to be sure.

But I think you have listened to the troons and take their arguments way more seriously than the substance merits. There's nothing wrong with listening sympathetically in good faith, but you need to be way more critical about how much staying power this stuff will have, even with the most ardent troons.

All most all of the most prominent detransitioners were absolutely adamant about their self identity. But self identity as practiced by troons is a modern concept. There's no reason to think it's going to persist any longer than the hula hoop did.

Like right now some morons are dabbling with racial self identification. That's not at all going to last. People are going to laugh at a white person who identifies as white, and in some cases get angry.

Gender self ID is going to go the same route.

Like I bet in 10 years, even in coastal blue cities in the US, if some rainbow moron is prattling to woman in a bar and they mention they identify as a non-binary, I bet the normie will openly smirk in response.

And that situation is rapidly deteriorating.

And in 15 years, I think they'll laugh openly at it.

This is all just hearsay, there is no guarantee it will ever go away, pronouns may become unfashionable with the newer wave of transfems but they will never officially end it’s just a part of our culture and people sadly need to accept that. Trends do die out but various ideological ideas are here to stay, besides there are positive aspects to pronouns, I do think it can be a good route to self empowerment and some people really do not have many other routes to be happy so at least giving them that will alleviate their problems in some way. You have very little to go by your own intuition which I think is well placed but doesn’t speak for all of culture.

So let's be clear: they read all the threads about themselves, but can't admit it.

Yeah because nobody would, you forget people have the right to feel right about their behaviour as you do with yours. Nobody has to listen to kf if they don’t want to regardless of what good points you make, people aren’t all logical beings. If we all were to iron out these flaws and everyone had complete introspection then that would be the end to all of societies problems. Kf being right doesn’t mean we can turn transgender people right. What could the end goal be? It’s ludicrous that there is any correct way to be about this.

 

[GenderCop]

Yeah because nobody would, you forget people have the right to feel right about their behaviour as you do with yours.

What makes you think I "feel right about my behavior"? I have never stated here how I feel about my behavior... and why should I?

I am here to laugh at other people's behavior, not talk about mine.

 

[Fart100]

What makes you think I "feel right about my behavior"? I have never stated here how I feel about my behavior... and why should I?

I am here to laugh at other people's behavior, not talk about mine.

Well I mean you feel entitled to act how you want, as is your right, well so do the people you laugh at. It works both ways. You clearly don’t think what they stand for is worth respecting but they believe otherwise and you can’t change that. That is just what it is.

 

[Marvin]

I think you catastrophize way too much on this one silly issue, I think a lot of these people are far more mentally ill than you imagine and this whole movement isn’t going to the death of culture as you say. There are many people here or the general public who don’t eat up as much of their time as we do obsessing over it as much as we do.

No, I don't think troonery will continue to monopolize a bunch of time. I'm not actually concerned that it will.

I'm just pushing back against the idea of "there's a lot of them, and just on that point, you have to take them seriously". My response to that is "no, I don't, and in general, we can't". With a small addendum of "we won't".

Like I said "the public at large doesn't humor this bullshit like they used to".

If this place ever wanted to be taken seriously you would sadly have to compromise on cutting out a lot of the vulgarity and other bullshit and make more points of substance rather than wanting to make jokes about them. There are really fantastic points that genuinely hit home and address points nobody else is willing to make but it gets lost amidst all of the other range of garbage that you’d see on any chan site and that hurts the farms being taken seriously.

I don't think the farms needs to be taken seriously. I think it's a place to fuck around. It's "for fun".

That being said, it's also a good place to get interesting points on these issues. But in the form of raw material that you can use elsewhere. It does need to be refined. But the farms doesn't need to be the place to do that refinement.

I'm politically active about this issue out in the world. I write letters, I petition my government, I attend protests and things like that. I'm not speaking at those events like I do here. But the very useful, intelligent points I make come from a lot of the clever shitposters on this site.

I met a lot of my best friends because of Chris Chan bullshit.

This is all just hearsay, there is no guarantee it will ever go away, pronouns may become unfashionable with the newer wave of transfems but they will never officially end it’s just a part of our culture and people sadly need to accept that. Trends do die out but various ideological ideas are here to stay, besides there are positive aspects to pronouns, I do think it can be a good route to self empowerment and some people really do not have many other routes to be happy so at least giving them that will alleviate their problems in some way. You have very little to go by your own intuition which I think is well placed but doesn’t speak for all of culture.

It's perhaps hearsay to you, but I think you're misunderstanding my perspective.

I'm giving you my (unscientific) impression of where the politics on this issue is going in the US and the western world at large. Based on my experiences advocating on this issue IRL. It's not just sampling spergs on twitter vs bluesky. It's from reading the results of Supreme Court decisions (both the bong Supreme Court and the American one), public surveys from respectable polling groups, talking to people both at obscure political events and ordinary people in bars. Talking to candidates for public office. There's one dipshit in my district who's got this as part of his platform. I guarantee his campaign interns know there's opposition about these issues, and it's not just people who say "nigger nigger nigger" online.

Like I said, I'm optimistic.

This is a woman's issue. Personally, I don't care about people being sexual deviants on their own time. I care about how it affects women and children. And most Americans across the spectrum are really not down with all the excesses of the troon crowd.

The main stumbling block is that when Americans do support "trans rights", they're not really aware of how crazy the positions really are. Yes, they really are trying to stick males with intact genitals in female prisons. That issue alone peaks over half of your average working Democrat voters in east coast states.

Anecdotes aren't data, but intuitively what I'm saying here jives with most of the conversations that farmers will have had with passionate Democrat voter family members at Thanksgiving.

 

[GenderCop]

You clearly don’t think what they stand for is worth respecting but they believe otherwise and you can’t change that.

Of course we can change that.

Support for troonery has plummeted and our continued criticism of their perversion is a major reason why.
If there was nothing to criticize, condemn or laugh at, we could never succeed at exposing them, since there would be nothing to expose.

As it is, our ongoing commentary is the necessary counterpoint to their constant claims of "trans joy" about "egg cracking" (egg-cracking = convincing more young ppl to transition) and similar predatory actions.

These are predators and "what they stand for" is preying on confused kids and getting into women's private spaces.

If you "respect" this--in any way--I can't help you.

 

[Powerhouse of the Cell]

Of course we can change that.

Support for troonery has plummeted and our continued criticism of their perversion is a major reason why.
If there was nothing to criticize, condemn or laugh at, we could never succeed at exposing them, since there would be nothing to expose.

As it is, our ongoing commentary is the necessary counterpoint to their constant claims of "trans joy" about "egg cracking" (egg-cracking = convincing more young ppl to transition) and similar predatory actions.

These are predators and "what they stand for" is preying on confused kids and getting into women's private spaces.

If you "respect" this--in any way--I can't help you.

Troonism is basically the very peak of wokism.

That being said, it's the most stupidest and easiest to deconstruct.

So I am very sure that with wokism getting less intense, it will be the first thing to go down.
It's a really easy target, anyone from any demographic, even gay people can hate on it and reject it for making it look bad.

That being said, this is also a reason a conspiracy hypothesis I have seen on Twitter about Troonism being sop to give conservatives an easy meaningless "win."