UN Fourth Democratic Debate: A New Dope

Starts at 5pm-8pm PST / 7pm CST-10pm CST / 8pm-11pm EST

If you want to watch the debate go here or here

Welcome to fourth Democratic primary debates, tonight will feature:

Joe Biden former Vice President


Kamala Harris senator from California


Bernie "Heart Breaker" Sanders senator from Vermont


Andrew Yang businessman


Cory Booker senator from New Jersey and mutated Obama clone


Beto O'Rourke representative from Texas


Amy Klobuchar senator from Minnesota


Julian Castro former housing and urban development secretary


Pete Buttigieg mayor of South Bend


NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES: Tom Steyer billionaire and businessman


Elizabeth Warren Massachusetts senator


RETURNING: Tulsi Gabbard Hawaii representative


The poll will be posted after the debates. I'm happy to see Tulsi return, but I hate Tom Steyer, mixed bag. I predict tonight is going to be a total mess, this is make or break time.

 

[Absolutego]

I would love the right to continue to spout the highly popular positions of "better things aren't possible" and "fuck everyone" in regards to healthcare. I think that's a winning proposition. Also keep spreading the lie that it would bankrupt America, even though a study specifically started to debunk it by libertarians found it would actually be cheaper than our current system.

Its so fascinating to see even the most ardent anti-leftists here admit that our current system is broken, but when offered a solution they deny it because Reasons and Well I Don't Want To. Even if you genuinely disagree with public healthcare you have to admit that doing nothing is not a politically viable solution.

It's worth pointing out that while I was making fun of the dude for not thinking through the horse he backed for reform beyond "daddy Bernie will save us uwu", that doesn't mean we can't improve. Rather it means you should be extremely wary of anyone promising you pie-in-the-sky solutions with very few details. Notice who starts laying out specifics about how their plan will solve the problem instead of people like Warren and Sanders who get noticeably cagey when pressed to explain themselves.

Also, the best barometer for judging the likelihood of a healthcare reform proposition of any kind actually improving the situation is, and always will be, the degree to which the healthcare industry, both hospitals and insurance providers, start screeching about it. They've got a hell of a good grift going and we're going to have to drag them along with us no matter what.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Not specifically on Medicare, but I do know how one of my friends got screwed hard on Obamacare, hence the reason I feel wary about those saying we have to do *something*.
Why?
Because it took my friend's already shit healthcare situation and made it even worse because his family couldn't even fucking afford the newly offered healthcare and they actually had to pay more on the fucking tax for not picking any healthcare which overall costed more than the original shitty healthcare they had.

Now to be fair to @Ashy the Angel because this mini-rant isn't really aimed at you, I assume you also were not a fan of neoliberal Obama's healthcare "fix" (aka capitulation to the insurance companies), right?

tl;dr: I guess I don't want my friend to get an even worse deal than he already has currently in another attempt to try and unfuck this, even though I know something should be done.

Medicare is what you pay into every paycheck. You become eligible after you get Social Security or if you get Social Security based on disability. Payment to doctors/hospitals are made on a per-arranged rate between providers and the government; the patient is responsible for the remainder. It's become more complicated and retirees are required to pay a monthly premium to cover those costs. I haven't dealt with it for a long time but I remember my dad didn't pay his Part B and was stuck with a hefty ER bill. It's not free as in free beer.

I remember hearing about a Medicare for all when the universal healthcare debate was going on but now its Medicaid for all which is way less comprehensive and doesn't cover a lot, especially dental. It also reimburses doctors at a far lower rate than Medicare, which why most doctors don't accept Medicaid patients (they tried to fix it by forcing everyone onto a health insurance plan but they simply took the money, then paid the same low Medicaid rates the government did while calling it Obamacare). That's not the case with Medicare which covers everything as long as you pay for it. Medicare for all could be done but again, we lose American hegemony and then the Hunter Bidens of America are SOL so it's not happening. Medicaid is more like Soviet style healthcare because good luck finding a decent doctor agreeing to accept those minuscule rates so you get stuck with Dr Obalyale who barely speaks English unless you are willing to slip Dr. Jones cash under the table.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

ood luck finding a decent doctor agreeing to accept those minuscule rates so you get stuck with Dr Obalyale who barely speaks English unless you are willing to slip Dr. Jones cash under the table.

And Good luck convincing the best people to be doctors when the options are "Get paid peanuts" and "Be corrupt as hell"

 

[the fall of man]

It's worth pointing out that while I was making fun of the dude for not thinking through the horse he backed for reform beyond "daddy Bernie will save us uwu", that doesn't mean we can't improve. Rather it means you should be extremely wary of anyone promising you pie-in-the-sky solutions with very few details. Notice who starts laying out specifics about how their plan will solve the problem instead of people like Warren and Sanders who get noticeably cagey when pressed to explain themselves.

Also, the best barometer for judging the likelihood of a healthcare reform proposition of any kind actually improving the situation is, and always will be, the degree to which the healthcare industry, both hospitals and insurance providers, start screeching about it. They've got a hell of a good grift going and we're going to have to drag them along with us no matter what.

the reason we lag behind other countries in healthcare is because they have no problem buying others’ (our) pharms, except we sell it to them cheaper than to ourselves because of the literal magic inherent in ICD-10 upcoding

 

[Absolutego]

the reason we lag behind other countries in healthcare is because they have no problem buying others’ (our) pharms, except we sell it to them cheaper than to ourselves because of the literal magic inherent in ICD-10 upcoding

that's just one of many reasons. there's a lot of cartel-like behavior between insurance and healthcare providers that jacks up the overall cost of treatment to an insane degree as well. Other countries have done a lot more to legislate away that behavior, with mixed results.

 

[the fall of man]

that's just one of many reasons. there's a lot of cartel-like behavior between insurance and healthcare providers that jacks up the overall cost of treatment to an insane degree as well. Other countries have done a lot more to legislate away that behavior, with mixed results.

Entirely agree. I feel that the IP itself (pharms and iterative “devices”) are what props everything else up, however. I’m not creative enough to figure out how Big Insurance could survive if we were more free-market.

Also I totally admit to being super lazy and reducing my argument to “more cheaper drugs because”

 

[heathercho]

The same socialized medicine that everyone wants to implement in America has existed in countries like Canada, Australia, and the whole of Scandinavia for decades.

Spoiler: About Medicare in Australia

Australia's Medicare exists currently only because of conservative governments - we've historically voted fiscally conservative. The Republicans historically aren't fiscally conservative - they're warhawks.
You'd need a whole new structure of government before medicare for all would work in the US.

Even in Australia, with our medicare system, it isn't as simple as "free" healthcare for all. Completely to the contrary.
Firstly, by 31, you have to get private cover. If you don't, you're saddled each year with "lifetime loading". So say you get that cover at 35, you have 4 years of loading added to the cover you have to buy. If you drop your cover at any point, you also will accrue that loading. It doesn't disappear for 10 years. I don't have loading and I don't have fancy, top range cover - just medium level and I pay $200ish a month. I also pay taxes that cover medicare.

Now, you can ignore that and never get cover, but lol at going through the public health system if you need anything.
You'll be waiting forever and have completely shitty conditions, with subpar doctors. You'll also be on a waiting list as long as your arm.

Now, as for private cover. Private cover doesn't mean a whole lot. The rebates you get from private cover are really only so-so. If you need a specialist, that's usually out of pocket. If you need surgery, that's mostly out of pocket.
It may cover you 20%. You'll also be paying per day for hospital stays too, out of pocket.
Some surgeries and treatments may be covered under medicare and you get lucky and get the treatment you need, but that list isn't very long. If you go private and use your cover, ditto. Also be prepared to fork out a fair bit out of pocket.

The one thing that is wholesale covered is GP visits. Which... whatever. 90% of medical centres are run by Indians with Indian degrees, who type symptoms into their computer and want you in and out in 15 mins.

The more people we've bought in, the more weak the system has become. The more taxed it is. It's in a woeful state and private cover is a rort. Systems like medicare only work if you can afford to make it work. It means fiscal conservatism, no more immigrants and tightening the belt on what services get offered.

Australia's is a pseudo-single-payer system, it's really only image only. Australia is a wealthy enough country that doesn't have the population that the US has and it doesn't work as simply as people think it does.

I've also experienced the healthcare systems in Japan and South Korea. Japan's is better, in a medical sense - the gov covers 70% for citizens and you pay the rest. South Korea's is universal and whilst easy to access for citizens, quality varies, despite what the stats say, but it is above and beyond Australia's.
Japan's is multipayer, Korea's is single-payer.
Neither country takes in an excess of immigrants/refugees and both are typically fiscally conservative.

 

[pwnest injun]

People agreeing w/ that Castro tweet re: the Ellen question are forgetting that Ellen DeGeneres is a product worth far more money than a single debate question in a boring October debate. Defending her reputation is more valuable than asking some schmuck how they plan to lose to Trump.

edit: Like, wasn't Ellen just outed as being on the CIA's payroll along dudes like Moby? She's worth more than any of these sacks.

 

[Vorhtbame]

Its so fascinating to see even the most ardent anti-leftists here admit that our current system is broken, but when offered a solution they deny it because Reasons and Well I Don't Want To. Even if you genuinely disagree with public healthcare you have to admit that doing nothing is not a politically viable solution.

It's so fascinating to see the "rational" left clinging to absolute dichotomies: either you buy into the first "solution" that comes along, or you don't give a shit and like to watch poor people die.

Like it or don't, there are certain fundamental rights that the government has to respect when it takes action, and contrary to leftfeels, they extend far beyond gay sex and talking about how you want Republicans to be executed. Those include the right to keep what you earn, own what you make, and make contracts for services without the government second-guessing you at every turn. It doesn't matter why those rights exist; they exist, they are guaranteed, and if you want to take things from people, you have to prove they did something that is a crime as defined under existing law.

So if you're going to take things away from some people to give it to others, you had best be able to prove it's not really theirs to begin with, or that there is no other real way to do the things that makes taking stuff so necessary. Some of us are not satisfied that there is no other way, and we are too respectful of others' rights (and our own) to jump straight to taking money at gunpoint to give to others.

You can act more slowly, carefully, working to invade the rights of others as little as possible (ideally not at all), and craft a solution that will resolve the issue as completely as possible the first time...or you could just ignore the entire rule of law in the United States and hope that they don't write a law that says it's okay to shoot people with furry avatars on Thursdays because without rights to hold them back, they could.

 

[moocow]

It's Bernie's legislation and it's his administration that's responsible for passing it if he's elected. Bernie has been advocating for this stuff for his entire career and the guy is old as shit. Medicare for all is an incredibly popular policy so if it gets blocked by spineless worms well then they can reap the consequences. I don't understand the argument of "It's too difficult it'll never pass." I've never seen so many people try so hard to do absolutely nothing. I'd rather Bernie try and fail then continue to suffer and be told it's fine and not expect a better life.

Medicare is a fucking nightmare. Anyone wanting to inflict it on everyone in America is either a sick bastard motherfucker or a person who's never had to deal with the snakes that run it, the billing departments that have to squeeze it for payments, or the hospitals that accept it knowing they'll never get paid for a sizable portion of the healthcare they provide to medicare recipients.

I'm not even joking. They routinely red-tape hospitals out of millions of dollars in payments (for legitimate charges, not the usual hyper-inflated "what you'd pay without insurance" menu), every day. Medicare fucks healthcare providers out of more money than the literal penniless vagrants walking into ER's around the country who still need medical attention. Hospitals write that stuff off as charity. It's peanuts compared to what they write off each year to medicare fuckery.

Then there's the "benefits" it provides. Just go look up the fucking "medicare donut hole." Holy shit. Who invented that? What possible good comes from that? "Hey, we'll pay for your prescription drugs ... right up to the point where it'll probably be uncomfortable for you to cover the costs yourself. At that point, that's exactly what we'll make you do and you get to pay 100% of it for awhile out of pocket. Then once you're completely fucking broke from blowing thousands of dollars on prescriptions, we'll start paying for it again. Until next year when it starts all over again. Fuck you and fuck your savings, get back in line."

That's the kind of evil you'd genuinely expect from private insurance, but here's our good ol' government doing it instead. Yeah. Spread that shit around. I want more of that. Let's give all of America VA-quality healthcare with the efficiency and compassion of the local DMV.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Fuck you and fuck your savings, get back in line."

The real Goal of Democrats, Fuck your independence, get back to work wage slaves.

 

[Stoneheart]

The same socialized medicine that everyone wants to implement in America has existed in countries like Canada, Australia, and the whole of Scandinavia for decades. The current system is incredibly cruel and broken so the talking point that it's just not viable, nothing can ever get better, and we have to sit and suffer isn't going to cut it.

good idea to copy failing states like canada or sweden.

You should try to copy Denmark, germany or the swiss. 3 different system that work well.
Denmark has a tax financed system. not a good idea in the US since your system doesnt work.

Germany has a hybrid system, most people pay 14ish% just for non profit (public) healthcare (up to a maximal income). in some jobs or as small business owner you can chose between public and private healthcare or have to use private healthcare(that could be changed since its a very old idea). the catch is, its all very heavyly regulated, the doctor gets a fixed price for everything he does. its hard to see the doctor for a cold in big cities.

the swiss has a very regulated private system with a government subsidies for poor people. works well too, but will the US government ever regulate the providers?


All 3 options dont realy work because Us Government agencies dont work, because corruption is to big and because people dont wanna pay for the healthcare for CA and other shitholes. Fixing CA would be more important for the public health of the US. not getting 3rd world illnesses because of 100,000 homeless people shitting on the streets of LA is way more important than getting cold medicine if you have a minor illness.

 

[Absolutego]

It's so fascinating to see the "rational" left clinging to absolute dichotomies: either you buy into the first "solution" that comes along, or you don't give a shit and like to watch poor people die.

Like it or don't, there are certain fundamental rights that the government has to respect when it takes action, and contrary to leftfeels, they extend far beyond gay sex and talking about how you want Republicans to be executed. Those include the right to keep what you earn, own what you make, and make contracts for services without the government second-guessing you at every turn. It doesn't matter why those rights exist; they exist, they are guaranteed, and if you want to take things from people, you have to prove they did something that is a crime as defined under existing law.

So if you're going to take things away from some people to give it to others, you had best be able to prove it's not really theirs to begin with, or that there is no other real way to do the things that makes taking stuff so necessary. Some of us are not satisfied that there is no other way, and we are too respectful of others' rights (and our own) to jump straight to taking money at gunpoint to give to others.

You can act more slowly, carefully, working to invade the rights of others as little as possible (ideally not at all), and craft a solution that will resolve the issue as completely as possible the first time...or you could just ignore the entire rule of law in the United States and hope that they don't write a law that says it's okay to shoot people with furry avatars on Thursdays because without rights to hold them back, they could.

For me it's not even an issue of infringing on fundamental rights, I've just been the idealistic kid duped into supporting someone promising radical change using me for votes, so I'm very suspicious of any other reform proposals that tap into that youthful zeal instead of having detailed reforms you aren't willing to abandon for the sake of making visible attempts at addressing the issue. Blanket "Medicaid/care for all" or universal healthcare proposals seem far more concerned with a visible "win" on the issue in lieu of actually fixing healthcare for our country.

 

[pwnest injun]

The amount of bureaucracy that could be eliminated by moving to a single payer system would go a long way toward fixing healthcare in our country. That is a huge cost in time, effort, and turmoil.

 

[⠠⠠⠅⠑⠋⠋⠁⠇⠎ ⠠⠠⠊⠎ ⠠⠠⠁ ⠠⠠⠋⠁⠛]

All 3 options dont realy work because Us Government agencies dont work, because corruption is to big and because people dont wanna pay for the healthcare for CA and other shitholes. Fixing CA would be more important for the public health of the US. not getting 3rd world illnesses because of 100,000 homeless people shitting on the streets of LA is way more important than getting cold medicine if you have a minor illness.

Well there you are. Revolutionary change and mass executions is the only way to fix the American healthcare system.

 

[Stoneheart]

Well there you are. Revolutionary change and mass executions is the only way to fix the American healthcare system.

thats racist...

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

The amount of bureaucracy that could be eliminated by moving to a single payer system would go a long way toward fixing healthcare in our country. That is a huge cost in time, effort, and turmoil.

Have you seen The Federal Government? If we went to single payer and got less bureaucracy I would lick a sidewalk in San Francisco.

 

[Socrates]

The healthcare problem can't be fixed until the border problem is fixed. If you think the medical system is fucked now imagine if everybody south of the border heard that Uncle Sam is handing out free medical care. There are a finite amount of doctors, nurses, and medical beds, they aren't an unbounded never ending resource like some people would like to believe.

 

[Stoneheart]

The healthcare problem can't be fixed until the border problem is fixed. If you think the medical system is fucked now imagine if everybody south of the border heard that Uncle Sam is handing out free medical care.

Thats BS. alot of country have small cards with a little chip on it, just like a credit card to ensure that you paid your healthcare tax.
That would make it very hard for illegals.

 

[Socrates]

Thats BS. alot of country have small cards with a little chip on it, just like a credit card to ensure that you paid your healthcare tax.
That would make it very hard for illegals.

Bud, your entire continent's financial system is falling apart at the seams currently because of moronic government spending.
Also if you haven't noticed, here in America the people gibbering for free healthcare are also the same people screeching about how every single person who shows up on the country's doorstep should get citizenship.
Another point: your country has citizenship by birthright, as opposed to in America where its handed to anyone who shits a kid out with a pinkie toe in American soil.

This socialist-lite "perfect system" that American lefties lionize and smug Europeans like to flaunt is in the process of shitting itself to death, and it's only just beginning. And yet we still have people trying to act like the European Model is the obvious way to a perfect Utopia.