Feminist Kiwis (not a honeypot)

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I used to consider myself a feminist because 1) I support women's rights in places where they have few or no rights and 2) out of respect for the feminists who made life better for me and millions of other women. The right to vote, being able to get an education, the possibility to get a good job, being able to choose when to have children (birth control in general, not just abortion), what is considered rape (e.g. spousal rape) etc. Granted not all of that happened purely because of feminism but it played a part in it.

Having said that, the current type of feminism (3rd wave and 4th wave) is just fucking nuts. They're making problems out of nothing, ignore actual problems because muh culture/the progressive stack (for instance the complete silence over the Cologne taharrush shit), they're going back and forth between being #StrongIndependentWomyn and being delicate little flowers that have to be protected from rude tweets and mansplaining. I just don't get it anymore...
 
pozilei dijo:
I used to consider myself a feminist because 1) I support women's rights in places where they have few or no rights and 2) out of respect for the feminists who made life better for me and millions of other women. The right to vote, being able to get an education, the possibility to get a good job, being able to choose when to have children (birth control in general, not just abortion), what is considered rape (e.g. spousal rape) etc. Granted not all of that happened purely because of feminism but it played a part in it.

Having said that, the current type of feminism (3rd wave and 4th wave) is just fucking nuts. They're making problems out of nothing, ignore actual problems because muh culture/the progressive stack (for instance the complete silence over the Cologne taharrush shit), they're going back and forth between being #StrongIndependentWomyn and being delicate little flowers that have to be protected from rude tweets and mansplaining. I just don't get it anymore...
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Here's the explanation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocqueville_effect
 
shibbolethal dijo:
i'm mainly just an overly sensitive bleeding heart fag, really. that's all there is to it. i don't go around saying that everybody who uses the word "stupid" is ableist or something, but i'm aware when somebody purposefully or accidentally says or does something that could be potentially harmful to somebody in real life.
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The problem with being like this is the world is going to stomp your heart into bloody ribbons and then you'll just hate absolutely everyone.

I'm not saying have no compassion, but realize that unlike a bunch of hippy dippy slogans, the human nervous system is actually kind of limited in emotion. It burns the fuck out when overloaded. Save that compassion for people who actually deserve it.
 
There's still a need for feminism IMO, even in Western countries. You may not have to worry about acid getting thrown in your face but there's a lot of differences in the way men and women are treated that are unequal. :powerlevel:I'm trans and have experienced being seen as/treated as both a man and a woman. They both suck in their own ways but honestly the female experience is a lot shittier. Women shouldn't have to be worried about sexual harassment to the degree that we see in our society or be assumed less intelligent because of their lady parts. I'd say I'm more second-wave, the way that Tumblr/gender politics has taken over the movement is pushing out a lot of people (while bringing in others that have no business being there but want to be speshull). I mean, I've been called a TERF for having radical opinions such as "if you aren't attracted to dick you aren't transphobic for not wanting to fuck a pre-op trans woman."
 
I am big on actual legal protections for women, like Title IX and anti-sex discrimination laws, where if you're paid less just for not having a dick (or for that matter paid less because you do have a dick), you can file a lawsuit against who did that to you and win.

I am very not big on just pure whining and tantrum throwing and pretending women are pretty princesses who can do no wrong.

I consider women (and for that matter gay and trans people) to be morally and legally equal to men in every important respect.

It actually pisses me off the word "feminist" has been so totally ruined and shat upon by crazy, evil harpies who hate all of humanity, including most actual women.

I would gladly call myself a "feminist" if not for the fact that it now amounts to saying you hate pretty much everyone and, if you're a male, you either chopped off your dick, you want to chop off your dick, or you're a cuck who wants to see your gf fucked by a dozen other dudes.
 
I find that saying I'm a woman's rights advocate is much easier and better in this day and age. It makes it easy to explain "Yeah, I'm for equality and mainly focusing on improving the conditions for women in places like the middle east where it's a shithole for them."

Feminism has so much negative connotation to it, and the crusading for shit in the united states is so pointless and retarded when there are way bigger issues in the U.S. than air conditioning sexism bullshit.

Plus if a feminist gets mad that I call myself a woman's rights advocate and an egalitarian it's just blatantly pointing out how stupid the feminist movement has become.
 
I call myself a "traditional feminist" when pushed.

In a post-industrial society there is really nothing (bar talent) stopping men and women doing the same job. When a society is still more industrialized, then men will be better at some jobs than women, and vice-versa.

This isn't "against women" to say so due to regular biological differences. I wouldn't bar a woman from any post, but if the job involves heavy lifting then said woman would have to work a lot harder to be in shape for the job.

The problem with how things stack now with this "new wave" of feminism is that its simply part of the gunk of fascism pretending to be part of the right on set.
 
I'm a feminist.

I don't want "equality." No, stop, listen. The whole PROBLEM with third wave feminism is this idea that you can make everything better between the sexes by equalizing stupid shit that is currently done by just one sex. Women should be able to spread their legs out in public! Women should be able to be villains and horrible moms! Men should be able to be vain and spend all their time thinking about clothes and hair! Little boys should be able to obsess over Disney princesses and buy a roomful of licensed merch! Women should be able to walk around with exposed nipples! Men should be able to make youtube videos where they sob into the camera while their makeup runs down their face!

Both sexes should feel equally free to express their innermost qualities through selective purchases of clothing and consumer goods!

Look, "equality" can be manipulated by the powerful just like anything else. What's being sold right now to the contemporary pseudo-feminist crowd is a notion of equality that just happens to equalize things in a way that always revolves around spending more money and feeling more personal insecurity (which leads to spending more money).

When I say that I'm a feminist but not looking for equality, this is what I mean. At its core, feminism is a method of analysis that allows for understanding the power relationships between men and women and being able to consider solutions for the liberation of human beings from the gender class hierarchy -- solutions that allow for living in ways that take our reproductive differences into account, but attempt to ensure freedom and support for women, who are often limited unnecessarily because our bodies must invest more heavily in the act of reproduction.
 
I don't really like labels since they divide people into camps and reinforce points of view as part of one's identity when they should be malleable to facts and new information. But I was raised by 2nd wave feminists so a lot of my perspective comes from that, and most of my views that have any gendered tint to them are feminist in one way or another.

The thing is, we won the 2nd wave war in most of the western world, decades ago. Women have had equal legal rights to men in my country, anti-discrimination laws, reproductive rights, and access to support systems for as long as I've been alive. But things still aren't really all that equal. Part of that is for reproductive reasons but mostly it's because traditional legal and cultural systems left an imprint on our culture in sometimes very subtle and devious ways. So it shouldn't be hard to accept the premise that there are hard-to-see biases which differentiate people by gender more than necessary. The question is then which ones are which, and how do you stop/fight/prevent them? And that's where people start to stratify into different camps like calling out misogynistic comments or turning every microaggression into a site ban.

Personally I like to think that people generally want things to improve, and are willing to believe empirically verifiable information, but the discourse is so inundated with made-up facts and poorly controlled studies that quite often individuals don't believe something that's happening right under their noses because nobody has bothered to actually research it. So I try to provide accurate studies and information where I can, and let people draw their own conclusions. Sometimes I can't and that sucks but you don't have to win every battle.

One thing that bothers me is the creation of MRA etc. as if it is in opposition or at least a counterpart/complement to feminism when feminism was supposed to be inclusive and egalitarian in the first place. Most of the MRA complaints are the flip side of feminist arguments - men would get custody more often if women weren't the de facto nurturers, men would suffer less from alimony if women earned more money, rape of men would be taken more seriously if men weren't more often in a position of power, etc. I'm way oversimplifying but I'm just trying to make the point that it should still be part of the same movement. They're not different concerns. The fact that they have splintered off tells me something has gone horribly wrong.

So I guess I am technically also an MRA lol? I definitely wouldn't identify as one though. The associations of that label are worse than feminism.
 
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Mars Attacks! dijo:
They both suck in their own ways but honestly the female experience is a lot shittier. Women shouldn't have to be worried about sexual harassment to the degree that we see in our society or be assumed less intelligent because of their lady parts.
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Realtalk what was your birth gender? This is probably a shitty thing to ask but I am curious. I believe in that "men are the disposable gender" BS.
Shaftie dijo:
Feminism has so much negative connotation to it, and the crusading for shit in the united states is so pointless and exceptional when there are way bigger issues in the U.S. than air conditioning sexism bullshit.
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I do think that this is an issue and I wish that fewer men were born. Its a matter of feminism being a lot of things to different people.
 
Cucumber dijo:
I consider a lot of feminism to have too many similarities to my Catholic upbringing. My thought is "if I took issue with this coming from a nun, why wouldn't I take issue with this coming from anyone else?" Particularly the idea that men were all predators, with no ability to control those sinful urges, and the "you must be in this group to be moral." I didn't find those teachings to sit well with me at all.
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I come from a catholic upbringing as well. The logic I use when confronted with the idea that I should apologize for a position I had no choice in is this: I didn't buy into original sin when the church tried to sell me on it, and I don't buy into it when professional victims do either.

pozilei dijo:
they're going back and forth between being #StrongIndependentWomyn and being delicate little flowers that have to be protected from rude tweets and mansplaining.
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This is what kills it for me more than anything else. A lot of these wafflers will leap down your throat (and send a lynch mob after you if you have any public presence) if you say anything they interpret as being divisive, but they also seem to want institutionalized segregation where all women should just not fight or struggle for anything, because "the game is always rigged, lets just make society jump the high hurdles for you", and it has no endgame that I can tell. If a little girl growing up today is constantly bombarded with the message that society owes her exception after exception because she can't ever win a fight on her own, how is anyone (including herself!) ever supposed to see her as "equal"?
 
demeter dijo:
If any of these fuckholes had to look into the face of an abused woman (not saying men aren't abused because they are!), they'd sober up really quick.
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Sadly, not really. Scumbag troons like Richard "Buffalo Bill" Jones not only didn't sober up on being excluded from a women's shelter (not even for being a troon but for not being in any danger at all), the son of a bitch actually tried to sue the shelter.
 
Pedo Bait dijo:
I don't really like labels since they divide people into camps and reinforce points of view as part of one's identity when they should be malleable to facts and new information. But I was raised by 2nd wave feminists so a lot of my perspective comes from that, and most of my views that have any gendered tint to them are feminist in one way or another.

The thing is, we won the 2nd wave war in most of the western world, decades ago. Women have had equal legal rights to men in my country, anti-discrimination laws, reproductive rights, and access to support systems for as long as I've been alive. But things still aren't really all that equal. Part of that is for reproductive reasons but mostly it's because traditional legal and cultural systems left an imprint on our culture in sometimes very subtle and devious ways. So it shouldn't be hard to accept the premise that there are hard-to-see biases which differentiate people by gender more than necessary. The question is then which ones are which, and how do you stop/fight/prevent them? And that's where people start to stratify into different camps like calling out misogynistic comments or turning every microaggression into a site ban.

Personally I like to think that people generally want things to improve, and are willing to believe empirically verifiable information, but the discourse is so inundated with made-up facts and poorly controlled studies that quite often individuals don't believe something that's happening right under their noses because nobody has bothered to actually research it. So I try to provide accurate studies and information where I can, and let people draw their own conclusions. Sometimes I can't and that sucks but you don't have to win every battle.

One thing that bothers me is the creation of MRA etc. as if it is in opposition or at least a counterpart/complement to feminism when feminism was supposed to be inclusive and egalitarian in the first place. Most of the MRA complaints are the flip side of feminist arguments - men would get custody more often if women weren't the de facto nurturers, men would suffer less from alimony if women earned more money, rape of men would be taken more seriously if men weren't more often in a position of power, etc. I'm way oversimplifying but I'm just trying to make the point that it should still be part of the same movement. They're not different concerns. The fact that they have splintered off tells me something has gone horribly wrong.

So I guess I am technically also an MRA lol? I definitely wouldn't identify as one though. The associations of that label are worse than feminism.
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Men's rights groups and feminism are just two sides of the same coin in my opinion, they both have people with reasonable points (Equality issues) and also both (especially on the internet) have a lot of crazies, ideally they'd just be about egalitarianism and rename it that but from what I can see the main problem is many from both side treat it as a zero sum game where if one side gains it means the other loses out.

A lot of it is probally due to limited government/charity funding where for one example using domestic violence shelters if they make one for men it uses money that could have been used for a woman's domestic violence shelter (After a search here's an article talking about it - http://www.xojane.com/issues/domestic-violence-shelters-for-men ) and it's the same for legal issues, rape claims are in the news a lot and that's something where if you make any significant changes it negatively affects the other side.
 
Marvin dijo:
The article is kind of goofy. Kinda followed along with the premise for a bit, then got bored when the author busted out the patriarchy and toxic masculinity and blah blah blah.

Comments are pretty solid though.
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Yeah the site is kind of on the "Check your privilege" side of things, I just linked it to give an example why there's a divide between feminists and mens right activists, in an ideal world they'd be enough funding to support all genuine victims.
 
Pickle Inspector dijo:
Yeah the site is kind of on the "Check your privilege" side of things, I just linked it to give an example why there's a divide between feminists and mens right activists, in an ideal world they'd be enough funding to support all genuine victims.
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Well, I mean, I was slightly impressed by how long (which wasn't terribly long) the article lasted before it got to the "check your privilege" stuff. Heh, it's funny that nowadays that pausing a bit before the "male oppression" arguments come out is praiseworthy.

I need to quit reading the Assigned Male thread. (Well, in that case, cis oppression, but yeah.)

And like I said, the comments were very level headed.
 
Pickle Inspector dijo:
Yeah the site is kind of on the "Check your privilege" side of things, I just linked it to give an example why there's a divide between feminists and mens right activists, in an ideal world they'd be enough funding to support all genuine victims.
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Yeah so the thing about that is: funding doesn't just HAPPEN. The reason there are women's shelters isn't that society has always deemed them necessary to fund. It's because feminists fought like hell to get that funding, donated a shitload of money to private shelters, volunteered their time to build them, and so on.

Same thing with divorce and custody. Until the mid-20th century, fathers were always the people who got custody, unless they didn't want it. Women's fight for more custody rights led first to something called the "tender years doctrine" that generally left young kids in their mother's care, and later to child support enforcement laws. Today, states favor joint custody arrangements, most dads who want custody get it, and even men who are police-documented physical abusers routinely get joint custody or unsupervised visitation. The reason so few kids are living with their dads? Most dads don't ask for custody.

When's the last time you saw any of the men's rights guys do a damn thing for male victims of domestic violence? I've seen feminists offer up their houses to women in domestic violence situations. Hell, most women I know have at some point had to put up a woman whose boyfriend was beating the hell out of them, feminist or not.

How many male victims of domestic violence do you suppose the average men's rights activist is willing to provide shelter for? How many hours do you think they'd volunteer lobbying? Would they donate toilet paper and deodorant to the men's DV shelter?

This is why I think their whole movement is a joke. If there was a men's movement that was actually about solving problems for male victims of violence, et cetera, it'd be well-received by the general public. The reason people roll their eyes at "meninists" is that the activists' priorities seem to actually be "force women to sleep with men like me" and other similar agenda items.

Of course, it's not like today's feminist movement is doing any better. For all the crying men's rights activists do about feminists, today's feminists aren't bothering to actually do a damn thing to improve conditions for women. They'd sooner have an hours-long twitter war over a TV show's representation of women than fight for American women to have even enough maternity leave to be able to recover physically from the act of pushing out an infant, and they'd CERTAINLY never be so culturally insensitive as to fight female genital mutilation (and they'll make sure you know that the very term is transphobic).

Instead, from both sides of this gender divide, it's a bunch of unattractive (inside and out) narcissists finding justifications for insisting that people should sleep with them and pay them as much attention as they crave.
 
It's always a little annoying (read: a godawful pain in the ass) when I have to interact with my feminist female peers.

I still try to stand my ground when I explain that while I believe in equality, I refuse to associate myself with third-wave feminists... But let's say that they try to guilt-trip me into admitting that Feminism is The One True Way Of Life(tm).
It's incredible how pushy they are when it comes to dragging people into their ideology... It's kind of like a cult and it's terrifying. They keep telling me that all the good things I have in life now are thanks to feminism (which I won't entirely deny, but it's not their feminism, my rights to vote, own property and abort if needed- and only under certain circumstances- I owe to first and second wave feminism, not their shrill fear-mongering bullshit) and they really try to pull at my nerves, pressing where it hurts to force me to agree.

The most recent example I can think of, and I will give you context for this, I am an oveweight young woman (but I apparently get white and 'pretty face' privilege... So that's a thing.) and they will constantly tell me how the Patriarchy will treat me like shit, how I am 'socially handicapped' because of my weight, how men think that I'm disgusting and how I'm oppressed by Womens' Magazines and the fashion industry and whatnot.

The funny thing is that in my adult life (because anything pre-adulthood doesn't count as children and teens are all little shits by definition) never has a (respectable) man insulted me about my weight. Who has, though? Feminists.
I mean, sure, they put their insults in the mouth of the Patriarchy, but it's there. It's textbook fear-mongering and it exasperates me more than anything. They are the ones who tell me I'm 'socially handicapped' because of my size, not the Patriarchy.

They don't even have any consideration for the Feminists who fought before them, those who fought the real fights (known as: not whining about manspreading, not screaming about fictional characters' portrayals and not throwing a tantrum about women not adhering to the cult).
Have any of them read about Simone de Beauvoir or Olympe de Gouges? No. But you bet they'll cherrypick out-of-context quotes from their essays and slap pixel pastel shit on it to post it on Tumblr.

TL;DR = Equality is great, I believe in that. Feminism as a movement got cancer, which is now terminal, and needs euthanesia as soon as possible.
Textbook Feminism doesn't exist under the pink banner anymore.
And tbh it pains me more than anything to see girls get roped into that shit.
 
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