Do people really hate Christ?

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so the tl;dr version of this is: "i don't like god because he does things i don't like and i know better than him"?

Looking around at the world around me, all the disease, famine, violence and strife that this omnipotent God simply doesn't stop but custom-designed by his own all seeing will....Could I do better if I had that power?

Yes. Yes I could. I could design a world in which rape was not possible. That alone would make it better.

Your deity is a douche.

So you view the Kiwis that believe GodJesus to be depraved barbarians? On one hand, okay that'll get a euphoric fedora but on the other had, that sounds pretty damn metal.

I view them as ignorant at best, not knowing or understanding the dogma they follow. Those who do I view as either mentally incompetent or malicious if they follow any of the Abrahamic religions (as well as others, my distaste is not limited to them).

That does not mean I hate believers, but it does make me more wary of them. There is no other context in which belief in the justness of roasting people for not having water poured over their head in the name of one man is socially acceptable historically let alone today.
 
Looking around at the world around me, all the disease, famine, violence and strife that this omnipotent God simply doesn't stop but custom-designed by his own all seeing will....Could I do better if I had that power?

Yes. Yes I could. I could design a world in which rape was not possible. That alone would make it better.

Your deity is a douche.



I view them as ignorant at best, not knowing or understanding the dogma they follow. Those who do I view as either mentally incompetent or malicious if they follow any of the Abrahamic religions (as well as others, my distaste is not limited to them).

That does not mean I hate believers, but it does make me more wary of them. There is no other context in which belief in the justness of roasting people for not having water poured over their head in the name of one man is socially acceptable historically let alone today.
Yeah, the true believers don't seem to believe in their own claims of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient god. He knows everything, but still punishes the humans he created for doing what he knew they'd do. Oh but wait, it's their fault because they were tricked by an evil angel god created...

"The problem of evil" is extremely basic, but also completely guts any claim that the Judaeo-christian god exists and is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. At the very least, one has to redefine "good" to include things that human beings generally consider "not good", like pain, suffering, etc.

At least the old timey polytheistic religions just said "Oh yeah, the gods are fucking huge dicks. But they're bigger and stronger than us, so we have to avoid pissing them off too much".
 
"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
 
No because that's Dante's fanfiction that got popularized as actual theology despite having nothing to do with it, Heaven and Hell are the same place, where one experiences the full presence of God. This presence is experienced as either suffering or paradise depending on the spiritual alignment of the person with God. Someone who rejects God experiences it as torment. Hell wasn't made by God, it's simply a possible spiritual state of someone after death.

The largest sects of Christianity include:

The Catholics
The Jehovas/7th day Adventists
The Mormons
The Communist Party of China's official Protestant Church
The Anglicans

They all believe in that stuff to some extent so I don't see how its wrong to recognize that clusterfuck of circles as Christian.
 
Looking around at the world around me, all the disease, famine, violence and strife that this omnipotent God simply doesn't stop but custom-designed by his own all seeing will....Could I do better if I had that power?

Yes. Yes I could. I could design a world in which rape was not possible. That alone would make it better.

Your deity is a douche.



I view them as ignorant at best, not knowing or understanding the dogma they follow. Those who do I view as either mentally incompetent or malicious if they follow any of the Abrahamic religions (as well as others, my distaste is not limited to them).

That does not mean I hate believers, but it does make me more wary of them. There is no other context in which belief in the justness of roasting people for not having water poured over their head in the name of one man is socially acceptable historically let alone today.
Im sorry to give this late a reply, but I couldn't help but be moved to talk after reading it.

The thing that most people dont understand about god and by extension Jesus, is why suffering exists. And the truth is that without suffering, without giving people the choice to do evil over good. There would be no free will.

Free will is the most important part of our lives. Without it, there would be no reason to live and we would not be able to define ourselves. You take away rape completely and you either take away the ability to have sex or people's free will. Happiness and good would have no meaning. We would be robots little better then angels.

God can soften or harden our hearts. He can bring out the best or worst in what's already in our hearts, but he will not "make" us do anything. There are rules to the universe, rules we cannot see and understand that are for our long term benefit.


I read something recently that changed my entire perspective of sin and heaven. Where sin was described as a Virus that gets stronger the more we do it, corrupting our very body's and souls..... Ive seen enough things on this site to know that is the truth. Sin is a natural consequence of free will, and you simply cannot have one without the other.

God wants us all in heaven, but heaven cannot exist with sin in it. Sin would perish in the presence of god. With all that in mind, old testement god seems less like wrathful god and more like a parent who is trying to scare his children straight, but in the long run that didn't work. So he sent Jesus as an anchor to protect our souls from sin. Its simply up to us to believe and trust in him.




I think the question most people should ask themselves is why did god create us and by extension the universe?

And another equally wonderful question is if god can see and know everything, can he close his eyes on the future we will pick? Can he choose not to know what we will finally do to preserve our free will?
 
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Do people really hate the pretty simple and all loving teachings and methods of Jesus Christ or do people just hate how members of Christianity and other religions have warped it for their own needs?

How can somebody hate love another and feeding 5, 000 people fish? Am I missing something?
the last sentence is confusing.

However, do i personally hate Christ? No, do i love him? Nope. Jesus is just alright with me...

Jesus died for somebody's sins... But not mine.

He's inspired a fuck load of great art, tho. Any Islamic rock bands as great as the greatest Christ rock band of all time Black Sabbath?
 
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Im sorry to give this late a reply, but I couldn't help but be moved to talk after reading it.

The thing that most people dont understand about god and by extension Jesus, is why suffering exists. And the truth is that without suffering, without giving people the choice to do evil over good. There would be no free will.


Not too late at all don't worry. It's a topic I enjoy talking about. I probably should wait till I'm more rested to answer this but a few ramblings while I'm half asleep.

There's three basic problems with this premise of free will not existing (among others, but I'll lead with these three).

The first being that a God, who is all powerful has created a world in which a binary of good and evil exists at all. God, who is all good, has created either directly or indirectly something wholly anthetical to his whole being.

There's also the other side of this that if he is all good, every single day things occur that God doesn't intervene in to mitigate or stop. If we accept your premise that suffering is necessary to allow people to do good (ignoring the idea that good can be done via improvement or ascension, not necessarily stopping immanent bad things), some people don't get a chance to do either. The man who his stabbed for his walet, the child who is ran over by a hit and run driver. These people don't get a chance to do good, they just get to be a victim.

There's also the problem with "Free will" itself. To make a free choice, surely a choice must be made without coercion or threat right? Can it be said humans have a choice when they are posed with a choice to follow the dictates of a religion or be roasted to death forever and ever? If they are, we must accept that the Americans were truely free under the British who insisted they pay exhorbitant tax or face the wrath of his majesties armies.

Free will is the most important part of our lives. Without it, there would be no reason to live and we would not be able to define ourselves. You take away rape completely and you either take away the ability to have sex or people's free will. Happiness and good would have no meaning. We would be robots little better then angels.

It's funny you say that, because isn't that what happens when a human successfully obtains salvation, beholds the beatific vision or is enraptured. The lingo may vary, but the ideal is the same isn't it? Being reunited with God in heaven.

Thomas Aquinas explained in the summa why the saints don't care for the damned, and why saints don't mourn for their relatives who are in hell. Once in heaven, the will of a human is in total alignment with God. They feel exactly the same way as he does about heaven. There is no sadness in heaven, there is no rebellion, there's also no questioning or indeed ability to change. There are no choices at all actually, the saved are wholly reprogammed into robots. Worse than angels actually, because apparently one particuarly infamous angel did rebel with his cronies to quite dramatic effect!

The highest ideal in the abrahamic faith is to shed ones ego and free will, so that ones own will is perfectly aligned with that of God is it not? Free will doesn't seem very highly prized at all, and seems more a temptation into damnation than anything else from this standpoint.

God can soften or harden our hearts. He can bring out the best or worst in what's already in our hearts, but he will not "make" us do anything. There are rules to the universe, rules we cannot see and understand that are for our long term benefit.

But he does. He threatens us directly with his unending wrath for failing to do what he wants.

He also creates a world in which his creations are tortured on a daily basis, and for some the only promise of relief in death is merely a gateway to a whole new level of suffering or in the very best case scenario as mentioned above; oblivion via the total loss of self in heaven.

Can God make a stone so heavy he cannot lift it? Is God bound to certain laws of the universe? If there is something, anything at all, that God cannot do; he can't possibly be omnipotent. If there's something God could do to help humanity, but he choses not to then he isn't omnibenevolent. Is he neither able, nor is he willing? Then is he divine at all?

This isn't a problem the Abrahamic God alone has, Epicurus' riddle was problematic for devotees of Neoplatonism and Imperial era Mystery Cult deities long before Yahweh took centre stage.
I read something recently that changed my entire perspective of sin and heaven. Where sin was described as a Virus that gets stronger the more we do it, corrupting our very body's and souls..... Ive seen enough things on this site to know that is the truth. Sin is a natural consequence of free will, and you simply cannot have one without the other.

But we don't have free will at all in the current set up. If I put a big cake in front of you, and tell you I'm going to stab one of your relatives to death if you eat the cake, have you really had a "free" choice to eat the cake or not?

This is before we even get into contexts and scenarios; i.e: "Murder is always wrong but if I'd killed Hitler I could save millions" etc.

God wants us all in heaven, but heaven cannot exist with sin in it. Sin would perish in the presence of god. With all that in mind, old testement god seems less like wrathful god and more like a parent who is trying to scare his children straight, but in the long run that didn't work. So he sent Jesus as an anchor to protect our souls from sin. Its simply up to us to believe and trust in him.

I don't know if you're a parent or not, but are you in the habit of murdering your children if they do something you don't like? Floods, Israelite armies, plagues....How can the children learn anything when they're dead? Moreover, what about all the goyim peoples who didn't even ever learn why they were being slaughtered because they'd never even heard of the God of Israel or what he wanted?

Also, sin can't exist in heaven yeah? Whose choice was that? God has decided what sin is, and has invented sin as a concept. If he's all powerful, he could make sin cease to exist but he chooses not to, and chooses to keep it cast out and infecting his flock at the same time.

Unless he didn't create sin, and he isn't able to stop it...At which point, he isn't omnipotent?

This is something from what we can glean from late antiquity the last of the pagans, such as the Academy at Athens or Hypatia in Alexandria, used to debate about and why many of them couldn't accept the Abrahamic deity. It's very, very hard to be monotheistic and rationalise this being as being always good all the time when so much evil is around; you either need a lesser deity of darkness like Satan or the Demiurge of the Gnostics to be an antagonist, or multiple deities of which some may be good, others bad or a bit of both at different times.

Hence why the problem of evil just didn't really exist for Polytheists and is a uniquely monotheist issue.

I think the question most people should ask themselves is why did god create us and by extension the universe?

Who knows? Why did I burn so many hours in my younger years on The Sims making rooms full of fireplaces on rugs to roast my pixel doillies to death?

Twisted amusement in my case. Mileage may vary.

And another equally wonderful question is if god can see and know everything, can he close his eyes on the future we will pick? Can he choose not to know what we will finally do to preserve our free will?

If he is omniscient then no, because an omniscient being by necessity must know all things. If there is something, anything at all, they don't know they can't by definition be all seeing.

If he is omnibenevolent then no, because if I saw my child outside playing with a gun and didn't intervene that would be criminal negligence. For a higher being like a deity, to sit back and not intervene when their "child" is in immanent danger of unending torment or very real immediate pain...Why do we hold ourselves to a higher standard than deities?

If he is omnipotent then probably, because it's immaterial if we obey or not. His seat is secure and there is no risk whatsoever of being ejected from it. His other qualities could impinge on this freedom however, as if he was omnibenevolent he would be forced to remain focused on it to prevent evil being done and his power would be required to enforce it.
 
Not too late at all don't worry. It's a topic I enjoy talking about. I probably should wait till I'm more rested to answer this but a few ramblings while I'm half asleep.

There's three basic problems with this premise of free will not existing (among others, but I'll lead with these three).

The first being that a God, who is all powerful has created a world in which a binary of good and evil exists at all. God, who is all good, has created either directly or indirectly something wholly anthetical to his whole being.

There's also the other side of this that if he is all good, every single day things occur that God doesn't intervene in to mitigate or stop. If we accept your premise that suffering is necessary to allow people to do good (ignoring the idea that good can be done via improvement or ascension, not necessarily stopping immanent bad things), some people don't get a chance to do either. The man who his stabbed for his walet, the child who is ran over by a hit and run driver. These people don't get a chance to do good, they just get to be a victim.

There's also the problem with "Free will" itself. To make a free choice, surely a choice must be made without coercion or threat right? Can it be said humans have a choice when they are posed with a choice to follow the dictates of a religion or be roasted to death forever and ever? If they are, we must accept that the Americans were truely free under the British who insisted they pay exhorbitant tax or face the wrath of his majesties armies.



It's funny you say that, because isn't that what happens when a human successfully obtains salvation, beholds the beatific vision or is enraptured. The lingo may vary, but the ideal is the same isn't it? Being reunited with God in heaven.

Thomas Aquinas explained in the summa why the saints don't care for the damned, and why saints don't mourn for their relatives who are in hell. Once in heaven, the will of a human is in total alignment with God. They feel exactly the same way as he does about heaven. There is no sadness in heaven, there is no rebellion, there's also no questioning or indeed ability to change. There are no choices at all actually, the saved are wholly reprogammed into robots. Worse than angels actually, because apparently one particuarly infamous angel did rebel with his cronies to quite dramatic effect!

The highest ideal in the abrahamic faith is to shed ones ego and free will, so that ones own will is perfectly aligned with that of God is it not? Free will doesn't seem very highly prized at all, and seems more a temptation into damnation than anything else from this standpoint.



But he does. He threatens us directly with his unending wrath for failing to do what he wants.

He also creates a world in which his creations are tortured on a daily basis, and for some the only promise of relief in death is merely a gateway to a whole new level of suffering or in the very best case scenario as mentioned above; oblivion via the total loss of self in heaven.

Can God make a stone so heavy he cannot lift it? Is God bound to certain laws of the universe? If there is something, anything at all, that God cannot do; he can't possibly be omnipotent. If there's something God could do to help humanity, but he choses not to then he isn't omnibenevolent. Is he neither able, nor is he willing? Then is he divine at all?

This isn't a problem the Abrahamic God alone has, Epicurus' riddle was problematic for devotees of Neoplatonism and Imperial era Mystery Cult deities long before Yahweh took centre stage.


But we don't have free will at all in the current set up. If I put a big cake in front of you, and tell you I'm going to stab one of your relatives to death if you eat the cake, have you really had a "free" choice to eat the cake or not?

This is before we even get into contexts and scenarios; i.e: "Murder is always wrong but if I'd killed Hitler I could save millions" etc.



I don't know if you're a parent or not, but are you in the habit of murdering your children if they do something you don't like? Floods, Israelite armies, plagues....How can the children learn anything when they're dead? Moreover, what about all the goyim peoples who didn't even ever learn why they were being slaughtered because they'd never even heard of the God of Israel or what he wanted?

Also, sin can't exist in heaven yeah? Whose choice was that? God has decided what sin is, and has invented sin as a concept. If he's all powerful, he could make sin cease to exist but he chooses not to, and chooses to keep it cast out and infecting his flock at the same time.

Unless he didn't create sin, and he isn't able to stop it...At which point, he isn't omnipotent?

This is something from what we can glean from late antiquity the last of the pagans, such as the Academy at Athens or Hypatia in Alexandria, used to debate about and why many of them couldn't accept the Abrahamic deity. It's very, very hard to be monotheistic and rationalise this being as being always good all the time when so much evil is around; you either need a lesser deity of darkness like Satan or the Demiurge of the Gnostics to be an antagonist, or multiple deities of which some may be good, others bad or a bit of both at different times.

Hence why the problem of evil just didn't really exist for Polytheists and is a uniquely monotheist issue.



Who knows? Why did I burn so many hours in my younger years on The Sims making rooms full of fireplaces on rugs to roast my pixel doillies to death?

Twisted amusement in my case. Mileage may vary.



If he is omniscient then no, because an omniscient being by necessity must know all things. If there is something, anything at all, they don't know they can't by definition be all seeing.

If he is omnibenevolent then no, because if I saw my child outside playing with a gun and didn't intervene that would be criminal negligence. For a higher being like a deity, to sit back and not intervene when their "child" is in immanent danger of unending torment or very real immediate pain...Why do we hold ourselves to a higher standard than deities?

If he is omnipotent then probably, because it's immaterial if we obey or not. His seat is secure and there is no risk whatsoever of being ejected from it. His other qualities could impinge on this freedom however, as if he was omnibenevolent he would be forced to remain focused on it to prevent evil being done and his power would be required to enforce it.
I appreciate how you've come at me with interesting points of consideration.

I believe first off, that while god is good, he's created a universe with rules. and that everything that develops in that universe is shaped by its experiences under those rules. You assume that god has created sin intentionally to wound, but Adam and Eve ate that apple. It's either the truth or a metaphor, but God did not originally want us to have sin. Unfortunately it comes with free will. It's a package deal and to change it would be to change the very rules and fabric of the universe. I believe those rules were put in place for an unfathomable but logical long term reason.

And your also assuming that innocent victims who die dont get the ultimate reward for their suffering. That they dont get to go to heaven for having their lives interrupted and ended. I believe the biggest hurdle to be had is from death is simply accepting it in our lives.

As I understand and believe, It's not that god wants or forces us to suffer. It's that a person who is permeated with sin cannot enter heaven. Sin is just.... automatically devoured in god and heaven's presence. If a person has sinned and truly repented then there is hope. We can argue about if god would let Hitler in to heaven if he repented, but that kind of person could never accept or take responsibility for their actions. The first step to god and heaven is admitting we've done and were wrong.


As I understand it, to free us of pain our memory's of the dammed are erased when we go up to heaven. You can debate that this is immoral, but all of our baggage has to be taken off us when we get up there. And the truth is we have no idea what heaven is like, but I believe its a place where you see all that is unseen, were you get to be productive in making and viewing all the arts of the mind and have the choice of what to enjoy and who to converse with everyday. Heaven is everything good that can and cannot be found on earth. I heard you can still have arguments up there and as long as that is true there is nothing to be afraid of losing.

Yeah, he did threaten us a lot. In the old testament, when humanity was first developing and barbarism was the norm. "God's laws where written on stone by man, but god's laws are a living thing". People look at the words of god and see them as completely inflexible, but if that is so then why did he send Jesus to lighten our burdens? To me, It feels less like god puts down these laws and commandments to punish us, and more like god put them down so that in following them we may lead a truly happy life. look at most of the people followed on the farms. They lead lives of sin. And as time as showed us again and again, it has not brought them beauty or lasting happiness. Who are those who are the most happy and satisfied with themselves? The rich man who lives off physical substance is always missing something.


When a people.. when all a people in those olden times knows is the value of violence. you have to speak to them in the language of violence. And when a people, knows the value of peace as they did in the Pax Romana. You speak to them of peace. There is the old testament, and there is the new. There is a sense of progression in gods tone with his children. And this is something many seem to miss.

It's interesting to talk about, but I firmly believe that god is something and someone we cannot fully understand and define by human terms.


I admit that I am no great debater or theologist, but Im glad I can talk about how I understand my faith with you.


Dennis Prager had quite possibly the most wonderful interpretation and understanding of old testament Genesis and Exodus ive ever seen. It influenced a lot about how I see god. The rational bible he called it.
 
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There was something that nagged me about Christianity. For all his faults, listening to talks from Big Bad Hitchens finally clicked it for me: I don't believe scapegoating is moral. I'm not personally relieved by the idea of Jesus offering to "take my sins", because they're mine. You can't make it not my fault; you can't say I didn't do it. The person (or persons) I've wronged get to choose whether to forgive me or not, even if that person is me. I don't get to say "nope, God gets to step in and make it his job to offer forgiveness here". Nobody gets to torture and murder an innocent person and claim it pays for all their wrongdoing. Scapegoating is the ultimate negation of responsibility. Now, I'm capable of fully understanding the religious reason why God is an exception to this rule and just fundamentally disagreeing with it.
 
There was something that nagged me about Christianity. For all his faults, listening to talks from Big Bad Hitchens finally clicked it for me: I don't believe scapegoating is moral. I'm not personally relieved by the idea of Jesus offering to "take my sins", because they're mine. You can't make it not my fault; you can't say I didn't do it. The person (or persons) I've wronged get to choose whether to forgive me or not, even if that person is me. I don't get to say "nope, God gets to step in and make it his job to offer forgiveness here". Nobody gets to torture and murder an innocent person and claim it pays for all their wrongdoing. Scapegoating is the ultimate negation of responsibility. Now, I'm capable of fully understanding the religious reason why God is an exception to this rule and just fundamentally disagreeing with it.
Your sins are still your own, as well as your penence. That doesnt magically go away.

Instead of offering sacrificing at the temple at various points every trangression, asking the priest to mediate atonement and doing almsgiving, a permanent sacrifice has been made, so you can go seek atonement and almsgiving.

If you grew up a "faith not works" prot, the necessity of the old testament sacrfice is skipped that leads to the "scapegoat is abandonment of responsibility".
 
Not too late at all don't worry. It's a topic I enjoy talking about. I probably should wait till I'm more rested to answer this but a few ramblings while I'm half asleep.

There's three basic problems with this premise of free will not existing (among others, but I'll lead with these three).

The first being that a God, who is all powerful has created a world in which a binary of good and evil exists at all. God, who is all good, has created either directly or indirectly something wholly anthetical to his whole being.

There's also the other side of this that if he is all good, every single day things occur that God doesn't intervene in to mitigate or stop. If we accept your premise that suffering is necessary to allow people to do good (ignoring the idea that good can be done via improvement or ascension, not necessarily stopping immanent bad things), some people don't get a chance to do either. The man who his stabbed for his walet, the child who is ran over by a hit and run driver. These people don't get a chance to do good, they just get to be a victim.

There's also the problem with "Free will" itself. To make a free choice, surely a choice must be made without coercion or threat right? Can it be said humans have a choice when they are posed with a choice to follow the dictates of a religion or be roasted to death forever and ever? If they are, we must accept that the Americans were truely free under the British who insisted they pay exhorbitant tax or face the wrath of his majesties armies.
if you assume the premise " you can either follow the dictates of a religion or be roasted to death" is true, you see that people still choose to be roasted to death and ignore the dictates. so the choice is undetermined. that said, If god (not specifically the Christian God) exists, then there's already a binary: god and not god. If god created the notion of goodness then there's a binary of oodness and not goodness. if you accept the premise that god is uncreated, then not god is also uncreated. in the same manner you can that not goodness is also uncreated.

As for the man who was stabbed and the child who was run over, they still had chances to do good before they died. their fate as a victim doesn't preclude that fact.
in Christian terms, you wait for the bridegroom with your lantern and oil prepared because you don't know when He will come.
It's funny you say that, because isn't that what happens when a human successfully obtains salvation, beholds the beatific vision or is enraptured. The lingo may vary, but the ideal is the same isn't it? Being reunited with God in heaven.

Thomas Aquinas explained in the summa why the saints don't care for the damned, and why saints don't mourn for their relatives who are in hell. Once in heaven, the will of a human is in total alignment with God. They feel exactly the same way as he does about heaven. There is no sadness in heaven, there is no rebellion, there's also no questioning or indeed ability to change. There are no choices at all actually, the saved are wholly reprogammed into robots. Worse than angels actually, because apparently one particuarly infamous angel did rebel with his cronies to quite dramatic effect!

The highest ideal in the abrahamic faith is to shed ones ego and free will, so that ones own will is perfectly aligned with that of God is it not? Free will doesn't seem very highly prized at all, and seems more a temptation into damnation than anything else from this standpoint.
Question 92.3 Aquinas says people, being with God, will never see what God sees. I would take this to mean that perfect alignment doesn't mean the person doesn't mean ego loss.
But he does. He threatens us directly with his unending wrath for failing to do what he wants.
God also gives you as many chances to do what he wants, he spared ninevah despite sending jonah to witness to their destruction. Same for Moses' pharaoh.
He also creates a world in which his creations are tortured on a daily basis, and for some the only promise of relief in death is merely a gateway to a whole new level of suffering or in the very best case scenario as mentioned above; oblivion via the total loss of self in heaven.
God flooded the world because this reason. Man chose to be
Can God make a stone so heavy he cannot lift it? Is God bound to certain laws of the universe? If there is something, anything at all, that God cannot do; he can't possibly be omnipotent. If there's something God could do to help humanity, but he choses not to then he isn't omnibenevolent. Is he neither able, nor is he willing? Then is he divine at all?

This isn't a problem the Abrahamic God alone has, Epicurus' riddle was problematic for devotees of Neoplatonism and Imperial era Mystery Cult deities long before Yahweh took centre stage.
Can god create impossible, illogical things in a world with defined physics.
But we don't have free will at all in the current set up. If I put a big cake in front of you, and tell you I'm going to stab one of your relatives to death if you eat the cake, have you really had a "free" choice to eat the cake or not?
of course you do. you have the choice and the acceptance of your responsibility. Even in your binary there are alternative choices: attack you, kill your family first, feed your family cake.

Man is undetermined and responsible for his choices.
This is before we even get into contexts and scenarios; i.e: "Murder is always wrong but if I'd killed Hitler I could save millions" etc.

I don't know if you're a parent or not, but are you in the habit of murdering your children if they do something you don't like? Floods, Israelite armies, plagues....How can the children learn anything when they're dead? Moreover, what about all the goyim peoples who didn't even ever learn why they were being slaughtered because they'd never even heard of the God of Israel or what he wanted?
Almost every time god kills people, hes offered the offender plenty of chances to repent. Are you a fan of the darwin awards?
Also, sin can't exist in heaven yeah? Whose choice was that? God has decided what sin is, and has invented sin as a concept. If he's all powerful, he could make sin cease to exist but he chooses not to, and chooses to keep it cast out and infecting his flock at the same time.
How can God make sin cease to exist if it exists because man freely disobeys? That choice would change humanity at its foundation, it would negate the image of God.

Unless he didn't create sin, and he isn't able to stop it...At which point, he isn't omnipotent?


This is something from what we can glean from late antiquity the last of the pagans, such as the Academy at Athens or Hypatia in Alexandria, used to debate about and why many of them couldn't accept the Abrahamic deity. It's very, very hard to be monotheistic and rationalise this being as being always good all the time when so much evil is around; you either need a lesser deity of darkness like Satan or the Demiurge of the Gnostics to be an antagonist, or multiple deities of which some may be good, others bad or a bit of both at different times.

Hence why the problem of evil just didn't really exist for Polytheists and is a uniquely monotheist issue.
Can you explain more? It seems you shifted evil from man to other things.
If he is omniscient then no, because an omniscient being by necessity must know all things. If there is something, anything at all, they don't know they can't by definition be all seeing.

If he is omnibenevolent then no, because if I saw my child outside playing with a gun and didn't intervene that would be criminal negligence. For a higher being like a deity, to sit back and not intervene when their "child" is in immanent danger of unending torment or very real immediate pain...Why do we hold ourselves to a higher standard than deities?
Child pulls the trigger and theres a misfire, misfeed, no bullets as can be the case.

Is that divine intervention.
If he is omnipotent then probably, because it's immaterial if we obey or not. His seat is secure and there is no risk whatsoever of being ejected from it. His other qualities could impinge on this freedom however, as if he was omnibenevolent he would be forced to remain focused on it to prevent evil being done and his power would be required to enforce it.
he prevented evil by flooding the world and this is held against him.
 
I get what you're saying. I really wish that Book of Levititcus was cut out in the New Testament. Would have prevented so many problems
Leviticus is in the OT. It's pretty fucking important. Of course, since Christ fulfilled the old law, we are not beholden to it. The retards that still follow Leviticus are mostly Calvinists. Calvinism is retarded and I blame John Calvin for the existence of fedora tipping faggots like TJ Kirk.
 
Leviticus is in the OT. It's pretty fucking important. Of course, since Christ fulfilled the old law, we are not beholden to it. The retards that still follow Leviticus are mostly Calvinists.
this is wrong, calvinism is primarily focused on soteriology and lots of christians follow the moral laws in leviticus.
 
For all of Americas autism and faults
I love this country which was built with christian values in mind so i don't hate it. I'm no god fearing man but i can respect people who are.
 
this is wrong, calvinism is primarily focused on soteriology and lots of christians follow the moral laws in leviticus.
Yes, a lot of christians follow the moral laws of Leviticus, not all of them are stupid. But Calvin teaches a lot of heretical bullshit that normal human beings should find offensive. Like how all good things you accomplish are solely because of God's Grace, yet all bad things you do are 100% your fault. Or how true redemption is impossible because of predestination, nothing that we do in this life matters because God has already decided whether we go to Heaven or Hell. And the most common christfags that irritate people are Presbyterians, a bunch of Calvinists.
 
Canon Jesus is all right but fundie fanon Jesus sucks ass.
 
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