Debate Android Raptor about abortion again

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SSj_Ness dijo:
You're a bunch of cells. Now move the goalpost to consciousness.
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There are layers. There's a bunch of cells. Even algae has that. Then there's sentience. That's the ability to have senses and feel pain of some sort. Do insects have that? Do you murder a sentient creature if you slap a fly? Then there's sapience. That means a self-aware entity that can actually think.

Are you one of those? Probably, if you can even consider the idea.

Is some embryo? Probably not. It's probably merely sentient in the second trimester or so.
 
AnOminous dijo:
There are layers. There's a bunch of cells. Even algae has that. Then there's sentience. That's the ability to have senses and feel pain of some sort. Do insects have that? Do you murder a sentient creature if you slap a fly? Then there's sapience. That means a self-aware entity that can actually think.

Are you one of those? Probably, if you can even consider the idea.

Is some embryo? Probably not. It's probably merely sentient in the second trimester or so.
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So what about someone in a coma
 
AnOminous dijo:
There are layers. There's a bunch of cells. Even algae has that. Then there's sentience. That's the ability to have senses and feel pain of some sort. Do insects have that? Do you murder a sentient creature if you slap a fly? Then there's sapience. That means a self-aware entity that can actually think.

Are you one of those? Probably, if you can even consider the idea.

Is some embryo? Probably not. It's probably merely sentient in the second trimester or so.
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It's an interesting conversation to have about what's going on in each trimester, but ironically this conversation in and of itself invalidates that poster's "just a clump of cells" argument. We're talking about about human development, not random clumps of cells, like skin or something. The moral and scientific difference is absolute.
 
SSj_Ness dijo:
You're a bunch of cells. Now move the goalpost to consciousness.
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I'm also not American so the massive cost of giving birth does not apply to me. It applies to you though.

In any case, I'm not really interested in "moving the goalpost" : the main reason I stand up for pro choice is the same reason as euthanasia. If somone is incurably suffering or from observation will only suffer immensely once they are born, I think it is evil to force them to live. Conscious or not.

I suppose that can extend to the topic of costs and poverty

So, back to your argument: pov, you're a bunch of cells which by some divine miracle has the ability of consciousness despite lacking brain cells. Your mother is a drunk crack addict and you will have x number of illnesses because of it. Your life will be nothing but poverty living in a ghetto selling your body for a bite to eat another hit. Would you want to live that life? I wouldn't.
 
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redcent dijo:
If somone is incurably suffering or from observation will only suffer immensely once they are born, I think it is evil to force them to live. Conscious or not.
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Perhaps, but the majority of abortions are elective, not because there's any valid medical purpose or such.

If abortion was so easily defensible its advocates could grapple with that fact instead of always solely arguing outliers.

redcent dijo:
I suppose that can extend to the topic of costs and poverty
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Why not just expect responsible behavior? There's no other circumstance under which you can end an innocent human life for convenience' sake.

And it's not like you can't just give the baby up for adoption, for free, no questions asked, bypassing the entire poverty excuse anyway.

redcent dijo:
Would you want to live that life? I wouldn't.
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Not your decision to make, neither is it mine nor even the mother's, or anyone else's. Outside of the absolute worst case scenarios of incurable illnesses and birth defects this shouldn't even be a conversation.
 
SSj_Ness dijo:
Perhaps, but the majority of abortions are elective, not because there's any valid medical purpose or such.

If abortion was so easily defensible its advocates could grapple with that fact instead of always solely arguing outliers.
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and those that aren't elective? Are you going to condemn them too? How universal is your "pro-life?"


Why not just expect responsible behavior? There's no other circumstance under which you can end an innocent human life for convenience' sake.
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and what do you mean by responsible human behaviour?

If we're talking about a married couple, how are they to be responsible? Not having sex at all? Dead bedroom, you know the ones that the guys on this site cry blue murder over?

Or can they at least get birth control, only, oops! There are advocates who want to deny those being available too! IDK if you are one of those but that is also an issue.

Or why not just stay unmarried? Only, oops! To do so means your a miserable cat lady who needs to be fixed.

Just can't win. And none of you see the hypocrisy at all. You want this life so much? Walk the bridge halfway.

If this form of life is so valuable, show it. Make sacrifices for this life. Otherwise you're not actually saving life, it's all just lip-service to make yourself feel good. Case in point:

And it's not like you can't just give the baby up for adoption, for free, no questions asked, bypassing the entire poverty excuse anyway.
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you go adopt a kid then. Take several. At the very least go fund some child's life who needs it. Or don't you value the life at all? Is that all this zygote is worth to you? As a cudgel to make others feel bad and you good?


Not your decision to make, neither is it mine nor even the mother's, or anyone else's. Outside of the absolute worst case scenarios of incurable illnesses and birth defects this shouldn't even be a conversation.
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You are right that it is not my or your decision to make. But it is the mother's over here, and the doctors. And yes it should be conversation. How else will anyone learn?
 
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