DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[Beelzebub's Lawyer]

Superman literally got fucking nerfed back in the aftermath of the Crisis, in 1986 you retard.

Superman was at his peak in the 50’s and 60’s comics where he was insanely powerful as a baseline

I don't know about that.
Infinite Crisis had some of my favorite bullshit like Superboy Prime resetting the DC multiverse with a punch.
I think that dwarfs Gunn's Superman and not by a small margin.

 

[God of Nothing]

Deadshot can apparently just shoot him in the leg while he runs really fast
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CvAGq8lNXNc

fast enough to travel through time
too slow to outrun a bullet

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

Everyone in DC is pulling god like shit out of their ass.

People joke about how weird it is for Batman to have all these backup plans, but when you're a regular guy in a world where Zeus can bitch-slap an alien, you need to be prepared for anything.

 

[God of Nothing]

People joke about how weird it is for Batman to have all these backup plans, but when you're a regular guy in a world where Zeus can bitch-slap an alien, you need to be prepared for anything.

honestly, i'm more upset bruce still gets his ass beat by relatively normal fucking people at this point
part of that consistency problem: he knows every martial art, presumably has super antidotes, and is qualified enough to go through space hijinks and he's still getting his ass handed to him by some fag in an owl costume

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

Deadshot can apparently just shoot him in the leg while he runs really fast
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CvAGq8lNXNc

When Suicide Squad kills the Justice League has a more realistic outcome.

 

[God of Nothing]

When Suicide Squad kills the Justice League has a more realistic outcome.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2Qvdqbw2mjg

and they still kill him with bullets after

 

[Humble Architect]

I don't know about that.
Infinite Crisis had some of my favorite bullshit like Superboy Prime resetting the DC multiverse with a punch.
I think that dwarfs Gunn's Superman and not by a small margin.

You prove my point, Crisis on Infinite Earths, the big reboot of 86, the versions of the characters we all know and love reaching their modern shape.

Superman has been nerfed since then. They also got rid of the other Kryptonians (based) and that’s where corpo Lex came into play.

 

[Beelzebub's Lawyer]

You prove my point, Crisis on Infinite Earths, the big reboot of 86, the versions of the characters we all know and love reaching their modern shape.

Superman has been nerfed since then. They also got rid of the other Kryptonians (based) and that’s where corpo Lex came into play.

Oh no, my man.
I'm talking about Infinite Crisis from 2005, not Crisis on Infinite Earth from 1985.
Those are different resetting events, they just aren't very creative with naming this shit which makes it harder for the readers.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

honestly, i'm more upset bruce still gets his ass beat by relatively normal fucking people at this point
part of that consistency problem: he knows every martial art, presumably has super antidotes, and is qualified enough to go through space hijinks and he's still getting his ass handed to him by some fag in an owl costume

Schrodinger's Batman: He's simultaneously quick enough to dodge circles around superhumans that could turn him into paste with one blow and slow enough to get decked by a fat man cosplaying a 1940s upper-class finance bro with a few months training at a McDojo.

 

[Incecticyder]

I'm talking about Infinite Crisis from 2005, not Crisis on Infinite Earth from 1985.

Indeed they are different. Like the Judean People's Front and The People's Front of Judea are different.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

When Suicide Squad kills the Justice League has a more realistic outcome.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2Qvdqbw2mjg

It's a pity they negate this later on by having Captain Boomerang somehow be quick enough to activate an anti-Flash force field device on his wrist before Flash can touch him.

It is far simpler than that. Superman has the DC universe. That means he joins far weaker heroes in fight. By giving him truly challenging opponents all the time, his rogue's gallery will steamroll the other heroes. There have to be some even Batman or Wonder Woman or whoever can fight when we have a JL story. They might not be able to take one General Zod or his soldiers but they can take on Livewire. We have seen what happens when the JL tries to fight Superman-level opponents that have combat training and don't hold back. Just ask the Guardians of the Globe how that goes. A lot of these guys and the Earth is doomed. The Viltrumites held back because they needed to reproduce and ended up going good. If a bunch of people who are crueler than even Thragg and just as strong show up, the DC humans are doomed. Having Superman be challenged to that extend physically is going to break the DC universe. He has to be challenged in other ways most of the time.

As for DBZ, the characters that couldn't fight ended up being irrelevant. Sure, Krillin, Roshi and Tien might still join fights but what about Yamcha and Chiaotzu? Ok, Yamcha had other reasons too but the point stands.

Solo stories for Green Lantern and the like don't waste time bothering about the existence of other superheroes. Neither should Superman comics. Easy peasy. I don't need to see Lois Lane or Batman doing the brain work for Superman or having Superman struggle with the likes of Livewire who realistically shouldn't even be more than a casual two-minute encounter for him just to avoid making the rest of the supporting cast look useless. Also it's not like the DC universe lacks in other heroes on Superman's level. It's just that writers don't see the need to nerf them due to complaints about OP-ness that are about 5 decades out of date.

 

[Incecticyder]

Solo stories for Green Lantern and the like don't waste time bothering about the existence of other superheroes.

No because they deal with the entire universe. Superman rarely does. Many of their foes never bother the JL unless they have a reason to hunt Hal or another of the GLs. They mostly don't want beef with anyone.

Neither should Superman comics. Easy peasy.

Superman lives on Earth and every city is seconds away from him. There isn't the vastness of space between them. He can hop to Gotham or wherever for a crossover or a drink.

I don't need to see Lois Lane or Batman doing the brain work for Superman

Not Lois but Batman is the resident Detective/Sugar Daddy. Superman IS smart but he isn't the smartest.

having Superman struggle with the likes of Livewire who realistically shouldn't even be more than a casual two-minute encounter for him just to avoid making the rest of the supporting cast look useless.

No one is saying he should struggle with Livewire. I said that she is someone that is a Superman Rogue that other heroes can beat too. Superman can handle Brainiac while someone else takes her on.

Also it's not like the DC universe lacks in other heroes on Superman's level.

It doesn't lack them but they aren't A-listers either. Even Captain Atom is a B-lister at best. Martian Manhunter is saved only by being on the JL cartoons.

It's just that writers don't see the need to nerf them due to complaints about OP-ness that are about 5 decades out of date.

The writers either don't know how to write Superman having struggles without nerfing him or want to glaze someone else. That's it.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

It's a pity they negate this later on by having Captain Boomerang somehow be quick enough to activate an anti-Flash force field device on his wrist before Flash can touch him.

This is why speedsters are always the hardest to write. It's like Batman examples mentioned above. The Flash is the fastest man alive, yet he still struggles against guys with freeze rays and boomerangs. The Arrowverse show made it even worse by making it so Flash needed people at S.T.A.R. Labs to tell him how to beat the bad guys while only occassionally remembering the true extent of his powers.

Superman lives on Earth and every city is seconds away from him. There isn't the vastness of space between them. He can hop to Gotham or wherever for a crossover or a drink.

"Lois, I'm going to get some coffee. Want me to swing by that place in Gotham with the bear claws you like, or would you rather a blueberry muffin from that place in Coast City?"

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

No because they deal with the entire universe. Superman rarely does. Many of their foes never bother the JL unless they have a reason to hunt Hal or another of the GLs. They mostly don't want beef with anyone.

Them dealing with the entire universe is even more reason for it to apply to them. Green Lanterns spend a fair amount of time doing stuff on Earth too.

Superman lives on Earth and every city is seconds away from him. There isn't the vastness of space between them. He can hop to Gotham or wherever for a crossover or a drink.

So do Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Zatanna, Cyborg, Martian Manhunter, Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Swamp Thing, Raven, Starfire, Captain Atom and a gazillion other heroes. I barely ever see any of their stories being handicapped by the ridiculous need to bring in other heroes or even acknowledge they exist. Marvel was practically built around the concept of a shared universe from the get-go and even they don't feel the need to do this shit. Spider-Man doesn't call up Mr. Fantastic or Tony Stark to do his science homework defeating the villain plot of the week.

Not Lois but Batman is the resident Detective/Sugar Daddy. Superman IS smart but he isn't the smartest.

Superman is technically supposed to have a super intellect and is scientifically inclined. Batman is a good detective but he really shouldn't be required for Clark/Kal to call on to do his science thinking in Superman's own stories as being a good detective does not equate to being a brilliant scientist especially when it comes to Kryptonian technology.

No one is saying he should struggle with Livewire. I said that she is someone that is a Superman Rogue that other heroes can beat too. Superman can handle Brainiac while someone else takes her on.

Then just move her over to someone else's rogues' gallery, I don't need to see her showing up and Superman suddenly developing a weakness to electricity just so she isn't a total joke.

It doesn't lack them but they aren't A-listers either. Even Captain Atom is a B-lister at best. Martian Manhunter is saved only by being on the JL cartoons.

By that measure nobody is really an A-lister in the DC crew save for Bats and Supes.

The writers either don't know how to write Superman having struggles without nerfing him or want to glaze someone else. That's it.

So you agree with what I'm saying in which case I don't understand what your point is other than perhaps trying to get the last word in.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

Superman's base level of strength is obviously much higher than Spidey's, and I DO think he should be the baseline strongest/most durable super in a typical DCU, so anything that actually IS stronger than him is A Big Deal - but we can adjust that "baseline" so he can still be knocked about, hurt until like Spidey he gets mad and drops his mental shackles.

Before the 1990s comic crash and the Death of Superman storyline Superman was seen and used as the benchmark all DC superheros and villains were measured up against by DC and comic readers.

 

[Incecticyder]

Them dealing with the entire universe is even more reason for it to apply to them. Green Lanterns spend a fair amount of time doing stuff on Earth too.

Most of their opponents (apart from the other Lanterns) don't care much about Earth so it doesn't factor as much.

So do Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Zatanna, Cyborg, Martian Manhunter, Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Swamp Thing, Raven, Starfire, Captain Atom and a gazillion other heroes. I barely ever see any of their stories being handicapped by the ridiculous need to bring in other heroes or even acknowledge they exist.

Superman schools most Batman/Wonder Woman/Flash/Aquaman/Teen Titans/whoever villains. Zatanna's and Captain Atom's might cause him problems though. Point is, there is a reason why only some of them make appearance in JL comics. Point is, a villain who can cause real trouble to Superman is someone like Luthor, Zod, Darkseid, Brainiac or the Anti-Monitor (or someone on their level). The rest, he can deal with rather easily.

Overall, I think the real issue is that these villains are meant to come back. Having Superman fight a villain of equal power means he has to trap them in the Phantom Zone or kill them. Such villains are too much for any other hero to fight solo. His rogues can be a JL level threat on the highest level. Few other heroes can claim that.

Superman is technically supposed to have a super intellect and is scientifically inclined. Batman is a good detective but he really shouldn't be required for Clark/Kal to call on to do his science thinking in Superman's own stories as being a good detective does not equate to being a brilliant scientist especially when it comes to Kryptonian technology.

A good scientist isn't necessarily a good detective. You don't see Einstein going to find serial killers. Also, I always figured that Superman wanted to keep the level of technology he has access to hidden from the public. Sharing it with fellow heroes is fine but if the public realized he has the power to make a mini-universe, there might be trouble. People might accuse him of manufacturing evidence or hypnotizing people into committing crimes to present himself as a hero. Can't have that. Not to mention that Batman has access to his own high tech stuff, not needing much of Kryptonian tech to function. Maybe the medical stuff or a training room but that's it.

Then just move her over to someone else's rogues' gallery, I don't need to see her showing up and Superman suddenly developing a weakness to electricity just so she isn't a total joke.

Good God! You only read half the things I say. Superman might not be killed by her voltage but he can get stunned. He is very resistant, not immune. At the same time, Livewire is an excellent Superman villain. Sure, she can't kill Superman but she can cause black-outs or kill others. She has a lot of hostages at any given point of time and that makes her a good threat.

By that measure nobody is really an A-lister in the DC crew save for Bats and Supes.

Every core member of the JL that has its own famous Rogue's Gallery is an A-lister. The more famous sidekicks are too.

So you agree with what I'm saying in which case I don't understand what your point is other than perhaps trying to get the last word in.

I agree with some things and disagree with others. We are having a dialogue but you seem to be taking it as an attack.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

No one is saying he should struggle with Livewire. I said that she is someone that is a Superman Rogue that other heroes can beat too. Superman can handle Brainiac while someone else takes her on.

Nah, I will vouch for this one.

Superman has long had electricity weaknesses, even the Reeves films reference it prior to STAS. The man has invulnerable skin, but his internals can still get cooked, so a woman shooting massive voltages of electricity through him is bound to hurt even if he can tank more than the average human. Same reason why Volcana can cause him damage, it isn’t so much the blasts hitting him as much as his internal temperature getting shot up by a walking sun.

I believe his powers may even work against him in these cases as thick skin keeps the internal issues from being released, so it just sits in there trapped, slowly eating away at him.

Also, this logic applies to the Flash as well

The Flash is the fastest man alive, yet he still struggles against guys with freeze rays

The Freeze gun slows down the Flash as the colder temperature affects his molecules and physicality like any normal human. Flash’s quickened body may make the effects hit faster as well, a problem that he goes through with Heatwave who lights his ass up through the increased temperature mixed with his faster body functions, accelerating everything. One also needs to remember that the Rouges temperature control is far beyond what normal humans can survive.

Honestly, DC should really highlight the heroes body internal problems as they make for easy ways to get the upper hand without being cheap about it. Clark’s super hearing is prime to get fucked, same with Flash’s quickened body processes.

 

[Incecticyder]

Nah, I will vouch for this one.

Superman has long had electricity weaknesses, even the Reeves films reference it prior to STAS. The man has invulnerable skin, but his internals can still get cooked, so a woman shooting massive voltages of electricity through him is bound to hurt even if he can tank more than the average human. Same reason why Volcana can cause him damage, it isn’t so much the blasts hitting him as much as his internal temperature getting shot up by a walking sun.

I believe his powers may even work against him in these cases as thick skin keeps the internal issues from being released, so it just sits in there trapped, slowly eating away at him.

Also, this logic applies to the Flash as well

Yeah, that is why I said he doesn't have immunity. He is still resistant enough to counter her. As for Volcana, I believe he is far more resistant to heat than electricity.

The Freeze gun slows down the Flash as the colder temperature affects his molecules and physicality like any normal human. Flash’s quickened body may make the effects hit faster as well, a problem that he goes through with Heatwave who lights his ass up through the increased temperature mixed with his faster body functions. One also needs to remember that the Rouges temperature control is far beyond what normal humans can survive.

Honestly, DC should really highlight the heroes body internal problems as they make for easy ways to get the upper hand without being cheap about it. Clark’s super hearing is prime to get fucked, same with Flash’s quickened body processes.

I think what he means is that no one should be fast enough to hit the Flash with the Cold Gun to begin with.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

I think what he means is that no one should be fast enough to hit the Flash with the Cold Gun to begin with.

It still freezes the area, which makes him naturally slower going in. Even if he doesn't necessarily get hit, he is still walking into a refrigerator often times and the coldness of the gun still comes off of it even before being used. Same can be said of Heatwave who will naturally make the temperature warmer. Assuming his body processes are accelerated - shown by his need for food consumption - the shift in temperature even prior to engagement will still hit him.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

Most of their opponents (apart from the other Lanterns) don't care much about Earth so it doesn't factor as much.

Most of their opponents are galaxy-level threats who can wipe out entire solar systems including Earth if their shenanigans aren't stopped.

Superman schools most Batman/Wonder Woman/Flash/Aquaman/Teen Titans/whoever villains. Zatanna's and Captain Atom's might cause him problems though. Point is, there is a reason why only some of them make appearance in JL comics. Point is, a villain who can cause real trouble to Superman is someone like Luthor, Zod, Darkseid, Brainiac or the Anti-Monitor (or someone on their level). The rest, he can deal with rather easily.

Overall, I think the real issue is that these villains are meant to come back. Having Superman fight a villain of equal power means he has to trap them in the Phantom Zone or kill them. Such villains are too much for any other hero to fight solo. His rogues can be a JL level threat on the highest level. Few other heroes can claim that.

There's at least one Wonder Woman villain that nearly killed him and the rest of the Justice League (it was her equivalent of Doomsday, I forget the name currently). But anyway you seem to be taking something I say and projecting something else onto it so let me reiterate in the simplest terms - Superman stories do not need nor do they benefit from constantly having to involve other heroes/supporting cast and therefore needing to nerf Superman to avoid them looking useless.

A good scientist isn't necessarily a good detective. You don't see Einstein going to find serial killers. Also, I always figured that Superman wanted to keep the level of technology he has access to hidden from the public. Sharing it with fellow heroes is fine but if the public realized he has the power to make a mini-universe, there might be trouble. People might accuse him of manufacturing evidence or hypnotizing people into committing crimes to present himself as a hero. Can't have that. Not to mention that Batman has access to his own high tech stuff, not needing much of Kryptonian tech to function. Maybe the medical stuff or a training room but that's it.

So by this measure every single Batman story that involves science shenanigans should have him asking the likes of Ted Kord, Mr. Terrific, Superman and Green Lantern for advice, right? Since him being a good detective doesn't necessarily mean that he is a good scientist. You seem to be misunderstanding my main point, which is that other superhero solo stories do not see the need to bring in other heroes to make the central hero seem less "OP". Neither should Superman's solo stories.

Good God! You only read half the things I say. Superman might not be killed by her voltage but he can get stunned. He is very resistant, not immune. At the same time, Livewire is an excellent Superman villain. Sure, she can't kill Superman but she can cause black-outs or kill others. She has a lot of hostages at any given point of time and that makes her a good threat.

I read everything you say, it's just that most of it is you constantly misinterpreting what I'm saying. Superman SHOULDN'T be getting affected by her powers, that's the point, she isn't a serious threat on his level anymore than the likes of the Prankster were (which is why he got shuffled off to other rogues' galleries). And sure she can threaten innocents but so can a regular terrorist with a few dozen bombs rigged to explode around Metropolis. But Basic Blond Boy does bring up a good point that perhaps Superman's weakness to electricity has been around earlier in the Reeves' movies though I don't recall that and will have to check.

Every core member of the JL that has its own famous Rogue's Gallery is an A-lister. The more famous sidekicks are too.

So Wonder Woman and Aquaman, who are on Superman's level physically, are A-listers then? How about Firestorm? He is pretty damn powerful too.

I agree with some things and disagree with others. We are having a dialogue but you seem to be taking it as an attack.

You seem to be agreeing with the core premises but writing in such a way to avoid admitting to it. Which I don't take as an attack so much as it just confuses me as to what your goal even is and what you are trying to prove. Because you aren't arguing against my main points, you are just constantly shifting the goal posts which has happened previously too. And if this is going to be another case of such then I really can't be arsed going in circles again so see replies #2 and #3 above for my primary claims.