Abortion - An age old issue

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Abortions have been around forever and will continue to be around forever despite the legislation passed in order to prevent them. Literally since ancient times unwanted pregnancies have been terminated with shit like heavy physical labor, beating, herbal concoctions, and apparently sitting on hot coconuts (thanks, Wikipedia!).

The fact of the matter is making them safe and accessible so we don't have to revert to coat hangers and coconuts, regardless of moral stance on the matter, because in spite of whatever you or I think they're going to happen.
 
I'm pro-choice myself, though I do share one vital viewpoint with the pro-lifers and that is that we believe life begins at conception.

However, I don't believe that the women who have abortions are "murderers" or anything of the sort.

Instead I see it as the most humane way of stopping a life that, for whatever reason, was unwanted, and would've therefore had a bad start to their existence once born (due to financial stress of the family; the parents not wanting children, and so on).

I fully support the legalisation of it and the women who have it done.
autisticdragonkin dijo:
Should the Father have any input on whether an abortion should take place?
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Abortion is a difficult enough procedure to go through even without the inner moral conflict and social stigma against it, and I feel especially sorry for pregnant couples who disagree on the outcome of the child. (While not a foolproof precaution, this is why you should have these kinds of talks before having sex to better avoid this awful scenario.)

If I absolutely had to make a choice on who would get the final say, regardless of the end choice, I'd place my vote on the woman as she is the one who will have to go through the physical part of a birth/abortion as well as the mental/emotional part, while the man would 'only' have to go through the latter.
 
Yutyrannus dijo:
Abortions have been around forever and will continue to be around forever despite the legislation passed in order to prevent them.
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The same can be said of murder, rape, slavery, or any other awful thing.

Yutyrannus dijo:
The fact of the matter is making them safe and accessible so we don't have to revert to coat hangers and coconuts, regardless of moral stance on the matter, because in spite of whatever you or I think they're going to happen.
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We'll never stop slavery so let's focus on making the purchase of slaves safer and more accessible.
 
Jon-Kacho dijo:
The same can be said of murder, rape, slavery, or any other awful thing.


We'll never stop slavery so let's focus on making the purchase of slaves safer and more accessible.
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I'm legitimately curious as to where you're making this parallel. Like, what the fuck. I mean more power to you and your opinion but thats a flimsy argument.
 
Well, we can do some empirical testing to see how those issues turn out for people.

Countries with legal slavery tend to show horrifying results of that. Countries without legal slavery may still have slaves, but many, many fewer, and typically they are kept in conditions that are objectively awful but also subjectively better than being in a system of legalized chattel slavery where you can be sold off in public or beaten on the street with impunity.

Countries with legal abortion tend to be a lot fucking better for women than countries without. The reason you should keep abortion legal is because if you don't, you get to see what there is in every gynecological hospital in countries without legal abortion: the "septic ward," where all the women whose abortions were botched by witch doctors or the village midwife or their own two hands with a sharp object show up, while they're bleeding out or bloating with infection.

You have to deal with all the extra orphans, too, because most women who abort in countries like that are already mothers.

We don't legalize murder because we know a country with legalized murder would be a horrorshow. We legalize abortion because we know the countries without it are.
 
Abortions4All dijo:
Countries with legal abortion tend to be a lot fucking better for women than countries without.
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Women who don't have abortions don't have it worse in countries where abortion is illegal. What you're really saying is that women who have abortions have it better in countries where abortions are legal. This is obviously true, likewise, murderers and rapists would have it better if those things were legal. The purpose of outlawing something is at least partially to make life worse for those who commit that crime, and that's not a bad thing.
 
No, even women who don't have abortions have it worse. They have to be incredibly careful about birth control, they have to avoid more sex, they have to carry babies to term who have major defects. In some countries, women with tubal/ectopic pregnancies (fatal to the fetus and to the mother) actually die because they can't get abortions. In others -- see Brazil -- the caesarean birth rate is north of 90% (and in some hospitals over 99%) because abortion is illegal and one of the only ways to have the government allow a permanent sterilization (tubal ligation) is to have four or more c-sections. Women who are rape victims, even if it turns out they're not pregnant, have to spend weeks terrified that they will be forced to bear their rapist's baby, with all the physical and mental changes pregnancy and birth brings.

I also posit that there's a difference between dying in childbirth when you had every option to continue the pregnancy or not, and dying in childbirth when you never had a choice and it was a foregone conclusion that you were going to carry to term in spite of the risks. When I had a kid and there were some complications that made it pretty scary for a minute, I was glad that I and everyone around me knew that my child was a wanted child, and that if anything were to happen to me, it wouldn't be because I'd been forced into carrying a pregnancy I was ambivalent or worse about.
 
Jon-Kacho dijo:
Women who don't have abortions don't have it worse in countries where abortion is illegal. What you're really saying is that women who have abortions have it better in countries where abortions are legal. This is obviously true, likewise, murderers and rapists would have it better if those things were legal. The purpose of outlawing something is at least partially to make life worse for those who commit that crime, and that's not a bad thing.
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are you saying sex for purposes other than procreation is a crime?
 
They never existed so they don't know any better and people who don't want children and would probably have been shitty parents don't have children to fuck up. Everyone wins.
 
resonancer dijo:
are you saying sex for purposes other than procreation is a crime?
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He's saying he's an angry fag who is pissed off by the very existence of vaginas and uteruses, which disgust him (he is literally that much of a fag), but he also hates the women they're attached to being able to control what goes on in them.
 
Jon-Kacho dijo:
No, I'm saying that killing children is.
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I don't want to kill children either. But I don't consider a cluster of undifferentiated cells that has no brain or feeling to be a "child".

How far down do we go? An unfertilized egg is a potential child just as a recently fertilized zygote is. Are women immoral for not being pregnant as much as possible, because every time she has her period she's letting another child die?
 
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