An embryo or fetus doesnt have the mental capacity to know what abortion or foster homes even are yet alone the capacity to want one over the other
Abortion - An age old issue
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An embryo or fetus doesnt have the mental capacity to know what abortion or foster homes even are yet alone the capacity to want one over the other
- Registrado
- 8 de Dic, 2014
One issue I've always had with the pro-life crowd is how they constantly talk about foster care and adoption, yet few of them are actually interested in raising children that are not biologically related to them. Either put up or shut up.
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kiwifarms.net
I had a conversation about this with my wife once. If you could save either you wife or your (unborn) child, who would you pick? She said most men usually say "save my wife, because we can always make another baby anyway but I have only one wife". However ask the woman, especially if she's already pregnant or a mother, and she would gladly die to save that child.
purrings
kiwifarms.net
- Registrado
- 18 de Dic, 2016
I wonder how much of that is social pressure to be a good sacrificial mom and have a super noble death. Personally, I wouldn't.
It's a noble thing to say, but many women have miscarriage naturally before even in less shitty parts of the world it's like 15-20% of all pregnancies. I feel like partial birth abortion during labor would just be like a super miscarriage rather then an abortion because you had every intention on going home with that baby. It wasn't your fault.
It sucks, you're attached to the baby even though you haven't met them yet. You have all these fantasies and hopes. You've suffered through the whole pregnancy everybody knows and is expecting to see the baby. You got baby shower gifts...
Miscarriage is just a thing that happens to lots of women all over the world every day. You just have to cry it out and try again for another baby.
Fucking off this mortal coil to die a saintly death leaving your husband or boyfriend alone, possibly with the other living children you already have doesn't seem fair or practical especially considering the baby could just die of SID's.
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I'm mostly pro life as in, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't let a child of my own do it (unless extreme cases of risk or fucked up situation where a 11yo is pregnant) and I don't like people do it. However i know abortions have been performed since early man could speak, through brebages or even messy ancient medical attempts.
So I can't exactly hope to make it stop, sure it sucks people do it, but it's not within my power. People are always going to do it, so at least give them a safe venue to.
I'm just not gonna trust or like a chick that aborted her baby because she spread her legs a lot and didn't want to accept responsibility.
And this is my problem and my right. I don't like you, I don't talk to you. Go on with your life.
So I can't exactly hope to make it stop, sure it sucks people do it, but it's not within my power. People are always going to do it, so at least give them a safe venue to.
I'm just not gonna trust or like a chick that aborted her baby because she spread her legs a lot and didn't want to accept responsibility.
And this is my problem and my right. I don't like you, I don't talk to you. Go on with your life.
- Registrado
- 2 de Ene, 2017
I'm sure bodily autonomy as basis for abortion at any stage, has already been covered.
even an adult can't live inside one of my organs without consent. my kidneys are my own, so is a uterus.
the solution to the moral questions of abortion lie in scientific progress- an external womb, a womb that can be impacted into the father, physically making both parents equal then allows us to legally view them equally.
at the moment, pregnancy requires one person to risk their life, but not the other. until that's addressed and changed, these laws can't take the other party's opinion into consideration.
I can't decide to donate my spouse's kidneys any more than I can decide she's going to stay pregnant. we all own our own bodies and the organs within them.
60% of women seeking abortions already have other children.
even an adult can't live inside one of my organs without consent. my kidneys are my own, so is a uterus.
the solution to the moral questions of abortion lie in scientific progress- an external womb, a womb that can be impacted into the father, physically making both parents equal then allows us to legally view them equally.
at the moment, pregnancy requires one person to risk their life, but not the other. until that's addressed and changed, these laws can't take the other party's opinion into consideration.
I can't decide to donate my spouse's kidneys any more than I can decide she's going to stay pregnant. we all own our own bodies and the organs within them.
60% of women seeking abortions already have other children.
- Registrado
- 5 de Jun, 2017
It's okay if most of you think otherwise but I only tolerate abortion if the child is a result of rape or has disabilities the parents couldn't handle.
- Registrado
- 10 de Feb, 2013
I don't really understand the belief that abortion is always murder. I get that the discussion is a lot more grisly in the case of late-term abortions, but those are only like 2% of all abortions. Most abortions take place pretty early in fetal development. If it's just a cluster of cells, or it doesn't even have a brain developed enough to process sensory information... what is the big deal? The cow used to make the burger you had for lunch today had more awareness and feeling than an undeveloped fetus. Call that stupid if you want but it's true. If you want to bring up the concept of human souls being sacrosanct or whatever, well... I just don't care. I'm not religious so I don't have to care. Women who want abortions shouldn't ever have to defend their choice against someone else's arbitrary religious beliefs.
Abortion doesn't seem to be an easy choice for any woman who makes it. But it's her body, let her decide what happens to it.
That said, I do favor the idea that the father should likewise be allotted some option to "opt out" of parenthood. It should never come to the point that a woman is forced to carry a baby to term - like I said, it's her body, she's not obligated to be an unwilling baby factory just because the father wishes it. But if a woman can get an abortion because she believes she's not ready to be a parent, then a man should be able to walk away for the same reason. Sometimes I feel like this is one of those areas where modern equality conveniently doesn't remember that men are not the only ones who want sex and women don't have to be tricked into it. As for rape cases, well, I think I'd be a lot less willing to care about the father's rights in those cases.
tl,dr: killing a ball of cells the size of a gumball is not murder and there are bigger problems you can tackle if you're so worried about society's immorality.
Abortion doesn't seem to be an easy choice for any woman who makes it. But it's her body, let her decide what happens to it.
That said, I do favor the idea that the father should likewise be allotted some option to "opt out" of parenthood. It should never come to the point that a woman is forced to carry a baby to term - like I said, it's her body, she's not obligated to be an unwilling baby factory just because the father wishes it. But if a woman can get an abortion because she believes she's not ready to be a parent, then a man should be able to walk away for the same reason. Sometimes I feel like this is one of those areas where modern equality conveniently doesn't remember that men are not the only ones who want sex and women don't have to be tricked into it. As for rape cases, well, I think I'd be a lot less willing to care about the father's rights in those cases.
tl,dr: killing a ball of cells the size of a gumball is not murder and there are bigger problems you can tackle if you're so worried about society's immorality.
- Registrado
- 22 de Mayo, 2017
Did she consent to have sex? Then she consented to have the baby.
- Registrado
- 28 de Dic, 2014
I'm not sure this is universally true, although fanatical anti-abortionists don't seem to do anything but be fanatically anti-abortion, like the utterly insane idiots they are.
Still, maybe if the "discourse" weren't so insane, both sides could actually set up something like a broker service where if someone who otherwise would have aborted agrees with it, the other partner in the agreement would actually adopt the child.
This is way too sensible ever to happen, though. Because both sides of this "debate" are batshit fucking crazy.
- Registrado
- 10 de Feb, 2013
I don't get why this is anyone's decision but the woman in question.
We humans didn't "sign up" for the way our bodies function. It's not the same as willingly holding yourself to a frame of ethics, like what's imposed on you if you become a doctor or a lawyer. We don't have an opt out option. I believe everyone has a responsibility to educate themselves and I'm all for using protection and birth control, but those are not 100% effective and I don't think a woman is obligated to treat every time she has sex as russian roulette. If you terminate a pregnancy before it is anything approaching an aware being, I don't see how that is morally worse than using birth control to prevent fertilization in the first place.
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Woodcutting bot
kiwifarms.net
- Registrado
- 26 de Mar, 2017
I took one look at the pro abortion crowd and realized that it's suddenly a good thing.
All the people who fetishize abortion (EG lena dunham) are exactly the type of people you don't want propagating their genes.
- Registrado
- 2 de Ene, 2017
abortion isn't an alternative to parenting. it's an alternative to being pregnant.
just pregnancy can kill; death during pregnancy and childbirth is common even with great medical care. it does effect the body for years afterward as well. carrying a pregnancy to term is comparable to giving up a kidney, it's actually more risky than that surgery.
it's not about whether the person wants to parent or not, it's about if she wants to be pregnant.
once we've got external wombs and/or fetal reimplantation, them it becomes a matter of eviction and parenthood instead of pregnancy. right now abortion is the only alternative to carrying a pregnancy to term.
- Registrado
- 29 de Ene, 2015
Looking back, I was fucking misguided and experimenting with different viewpoints. I am now pro-choice, and I am very pro-contraception.
- Registrado
- 28 de Dic, 2014
I'm not saying it's a perfect, absolute solution to everything. Just that the number of abortions could be reduced, supposedly a goal of one side, and the number of adoptions could increase, solving a problem for another side of the issue.
This obviously doesn't fix everything, but it would achieve some goals both "sides" claim to care about, but generally don't actually care about in reality.
Personally, I think anti-abortionists are much more concerned with punishing women for having sex than caring at all about the babies they want to force them to have, since their main concern is punishing the woman. They don't give a shit about the actual baby.
However, there are actual human issues buried under the mountains of insane bullshit here.
- Registrado
- 10 de Feb, 2013
I think this is very true. When I hear people say "she chose to have sex therefore she agreed to the rest of it" I know they're full of shit. Sorry @TrannyBO if that wasn't your intent but it's too whitewashed of a justification.
When a woman is freer to have sex, that implies a lessening of the chances she'll allow only you to own her sexuality. There are a lot of pro-lifers who are terrified of trying to find their place in a world where the politics of interpersonal power don't conform to the traditionalist narrative they were raised on, and that's why there's so much overlap with opposition to birth control and sexual education - those technologies and information can make obsolete the problem of unwanted pregnancies and babies if that's what they cared about, but it's not. This is one area where I will unabashedly say that yes there is a shitty "patriarchy" trying to control women's lives and prevent their equality.
I mean, jesus christ, I want to have sex with women who also happily want it and not have to worry about life-destroying consequences, and every sane straight guy wants the same thing. But it's harder than it should be, because pro-life control freaks are as intimidated as any incel by a woman who isn't hampered by shame or inexperience.
- Registrado
- 2 de Ene, 2017
agreed on most of this. reducing abortions is done more easily by increasing access to sex ed and birth control, that's the only proven way to do it. increasing adoptions doesn't matter and pretty much send to wreck the women who are forced to go through a pregnancy for someone else...I don't really think anyone who's pro choice cares about this part of it. it's pretty much accepted that abortion is simply a way not to be pregnant, for whatever reason, and that since you own your own body, others can't use it without permission.
religious-run nations think they own people's bodies, which is why abortion is often illegal in them.
at least in most western nations, bodily autonomy is an acknowledged right- from it comes the right to self defence, for example. the right to not donate organs. freedom of speech, of assembly, all the other rights stem from the idea that your body is yours and you can defend it and decide about it in various ways.
punishing the woman is a central tenet of most of the major religions. they oppose science, sex ed and birth control. they oppose women being educated. they oppose better/free to patient healthcare. it goes on and on.
if there were artificial wombs made available, then starts a different debate about when life begins and whether people can decide not to have their DNA out there in someone else. that's a completely different discussion than what we've got right now, which is basically over whether women should be forced to donate organs and risk their life to be pregnant against their will.
and yeah- pretty much at any stage, up to the end, it's the logic you apply to whether you can force one person to let another use their organs. you need consent for that, and even if they're eight months along, you can't force someone to do that. not wanting to be pregnant isn't "no reason", that's the very reason, at any time during a pregnancy. and it's enough, or ought to be, logically.
religious-run nations think they own people's bodies, which is why abortion is often illegal in them.
at least in most western nations, bodily autonomy is an acknowledged right- from it comes the right to self defence, for example. the right to not donate organs. freedom of speech, of assembly, all the other rights stem from the idea that your body is yours and you can defend it and decide about it in various ways.
punishing the woman is a central tenet of most of the major religions. they oppose science, sex ed and birth control. they oppose women being educated. they oppose better/free to patient healthcare. it goes on and on.
if there were artificial wombs made available, then starts a different debate about when life begins and whether people can decide not to have their DNA out there in someone else. that's a completely different discussion than what we've got right now, which is basically over whether women should be forced to donate organs and risk their life to be pregnant against their will.
and yeah- pretty much at any stage, up to the end, it's the logic you apply to whether you can force one person to let another use their organs. you need consent for that, and even if they're eight months along, you can't force someone to do that. not wanting to be pregnant isn't "no reason", that's the very reason, at any time during a pregnancy. and it's enough, or ought to be, logically.
- Registrado
- 24 de Mar, 2016
Yeah man you sound like a real humanitarian all wanting those women to be so enlightened they'll give you their pussy without having to put a ring on it.
LOL. The idea that men on either side of this debate give a fuck about what women go through with pregnancy, miscarriage, birth, post-partum, is absurd. The men on the right want women to be tied to them as private property, and the men on the left want to make sure they don't have to pay child support or get tied down. This means it's to both sides' advantage for services to mothers to be cut to the absolute bone, with no free daycare or maternity leave. On the right, the men see this type of social engineering as "encouraging marriage" and traditional family values, while on the left, the men see it as a way to ensure their girlfriend goes to the clinic like a good girl without getting any uppity ideas about being a single mother making it in the city.
- Registrado
- 10 de Feb, 2013
You are free to wait to have sex until marriage all you like.
Neither gender wants to be tied down with children when they don't want children. The technology and education allows for us to not have to have unwanted pregnancies and babies so what is the problem?
If she's already a mother how about thinking of her other children? Losing parents at a young age can really fuck someone up