Abortion - An age old issue

[PorcupineTree]

Question that I may make a separate thread for if it diverges enough from this one: Can you be both pro-life and a feminist? Can you be not pro choice and a feminist?

Probably. If we’re pushing aside the warped virtue signaling associated with “feminism” here and just defining it by the idea that women deserve basic human rights, it depends on whether or not you perceive the fetus as human.

 

[sweetdreamslambie]

Making murder illegal doesn't stop murder, people just do it illegally, so it'd be better if it was legal so that it's observed by the government and regulations and such could be put in place.

Your argument works equally well against any law. I don't think you would agree with the conclusion of my modified version of your argument though, even though it uses the same logic and assumptions.

yeah, I suppose my argument is a bit flawed... I still stand by abortion being legal because I believe that whatever reason a woman has to get an abortion she should whether she got raped, she isn't financially stable, she could die, etc. Also, childbirth comes with physical and psychological conditions that can greatly affect a woman's health such as Severe Maternal Morbidity which affected more than 50,000 women in the U.S. in 2014 (according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

 

[cactus]

yeah, I suppose my argument is a bit flawed... I still stand by abortion being legal because I believe that whatever reason a woman has to get an abortion she should whether she got raped, she isn't financially stable, she could die, etc. Also, childbirth comes with physical and psychological conditions that can greatly affect a woman's health such as Severe Maternal Morbidity which affected more than 50,000 women in the U.S. in 2014 (according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

Would it be illegal if it's precedent that you don't have to donate an organ if you don't want to even if it will result in the death of the person in need? Think of it like this: the fetus is in the womb, you don't want it using your womb, you remove it, oops! it died.

 

[sweetdreamslambie]

Would it be illegal if it's precedent that you don't have to donate an organ if you don't want to even if it will result in the death of the person in need? Think of it like this: the fetus is in the womb, you don't want it using your womb, you remove it, oops! it died.

are you trying to say that the child could've been given to someone who wanted one? sorry, I'm a bit slow. unfortunately, the woman must go through childbirth in order to put this child up for adoption or whatever, this puts the woman at risk of physical/psychological conditions and even, death.

 

[cactus]

are you trying to say that the child could've been given to someone who wanted one? sorry, I'm a bit slow. unfortunately, the woman must go through childbirth in order to put this child up for adoption or whatever, this puts the woman at risk of physical/psychological conditions and even, death.

Nope, I'm saying there is a case, McFall v. Shimp, where it was made precedent that if someone wants you to donate an organ to them, you don't have to, even if it would result in their death, I assume because bodily autonomy is a thing. Bascially, the fetus needs the womb to survive up to a certain point, without it, it will 100% die, basically you're donating it against your will if you don't want to be pregnant, and if the fetus is legally a person, that means they can't use it and if removing it means its death, oh well.

 

[sweetdreamslambie]

Nope, I'm saying there is a case, McFall v. Shimp, where it was made precedent that if someone wants you to donate an organ to them, you don't have to, even if it would result in their death, I assume because bodily autonomy is a thing. Bascially, the fetus needs the womb to survive up to a certain point, without it, it will 100% die, basically you're donating it against your will if you don't want to be pregnant, and if the fetus is legally a person, that means they can't use it and if removing it means its death, oh well.

damn, you got me there. that's a pretty damn good argument and honestly, I don't really have anything else to say to that lol, thank you for this food for thought

 

[Ceci]

In my opinion, abortion is the most pragmatic solution.
The birth of unwanted children is gonna create a burden on the family and the government. Families that don't want their children often lack the resources to adequately care for them, especially if they're low-income. This results in the child growing up in a non-ideal environment, and often puts more financial stress on the family. This may cause the family to fall on hard times, and they may need government assistance.
I think government assistance is a positive thing, but obviously its better to have fewer people using it rather than more. And if the child was born with severe disabilities or medical needs, such as the Hartley girls some of you may be familiar with, this financial burden is only increased. This means more burdens on the family and on the government, both of whom never wanted this child to be born in the first place.
One solution to putting less financial stress on the government is to simply end the welfare programs, but this comes with the consequence of the full burden of raising a child falling on low-income families, and this can result in a worse upbringing for a child. Kids born into poor families may often end up worse as adults, whether that be that they also are struggling financially, or if they found their way into prison. And when you have adults living under these conditions, they're also likely going to have some government money going to them one way or another.
Adoption is an option, but the foster care system is its own bag of worms, and there are plenty of kids who don't get adopted.
Overall, i think it boils down to this: either you make abortion legal and accessible, or you take care of all the unwanted babies born.

 

[Chewy Suarez]

IMO, Abortion should be legal because it provides a safe and legal alternative for unwanted pregnancies. Making it illegal isn’t gonna prevent unwanted pregnancies, and women will just seek the unsafe clotheshanger abortion that kills.

But, women should also have the choice to believe it’s murder and choose to not get an abortion. There should always be a choice, but women should be able to choose if they or they don’t believe it’s murder.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

IMO, Abortion should be legal because it provides a safe and legal alternative for unwanted pregnancies. Making it illegal isn’t gonna prevent unwanted pregnancies, and women will just seek the unsafe clotheshanger abortion that kills.

But, women should also have the choice to believe it’s murder and choose to not get an abortion. There should always be a choice, but women should be able to choose if they or they don’t believe it’s murder.

So can I kill you if I don't believe its murder?

From the dumb ratings I guess people think I'm trying to equate abortion with murder, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm pointing out that the logic being used is incredibly faulty, and could be used to justify literally anything. The most extreme possible version of that argument would be legalized murder, which is why it's my go-to in this debate.

I'm not even sure what my true feelings are on this subject, I'm just trying to get to a place where we can have a discussion instead of spewing catch phrases.

 

[samuraicrack]

I think it depends on the context in a lot of scenarios. If a girl was raped then yeah obviously she should have the right to get an abortion. But at the same time if you’re a massive slut who jumps on dick three times a day then all abortion really is is just a get out of jail free card for people who never want to face repercussions for anything they do. In terms of having sex with a dude and you forget to take birth control or something, you should be able to get one freebie at least for making a very stupid mistake, but if it happens again then you’re shit out of luck.

Also I know everyone screeches about “my body my choice” but don’t mammals technically start off in the male’s body anyways? They’re the reason why the woman is even able to have the kid in the first place, obviously it should be up to both the parents, not just one. If the guy wants to keep it but the girl doesn’t then he should get full responsibility and vice versa.

 

[AnOminous]

Just what we need. Unwanted spawn of defective criminals to grow up to be criminals as well.

 

[cactus]

I think it depends on the context in a lot of scenarios. If a girl was raped then yeah obviously she should have the right to get an abortion. But at the same time if you’re a massive slut who jumps on dick three times a day then all abortion really is is just a get out of jail free card for people who never want to face repercussions for anything they do. In terms of having sex with a dude and you forget to take birth control or something, you should be able to get one freebie at least for making a very stupid mistake, but if it happens again then you’re shit out of luck.

Also I know everyone screeches about “my body my choice” but don’t mammals technically start off in the male’s body anyways? They’re the reason why the woman is even able to have the kid in the first place, obviously it should be up to both the parents, not just one. If the guy wants to keep it but the girl doesn’t then he should get full responsibility and vice versa.

Abortions cost hundreds of dollars and is still a form of birth control, anyone using abortions the way you describe is an idiot and shouldn't be trusted with kids anyway, so let them have their abortions. If a woman wants to be a gigantic slut, who cares? Is this affecting you personally or do your morals say that sex with more than one person is bad? Your morals only apply to you.

What the fuck are you even talking about? If a man is able to carry a child to term, then he can choose to keep it or abort it, but until then, woman have to deal with the brunt of the incubating and can have the choice. But then again, I'm totally fine with a man signing away his parental rights if he doesn't want the kid and the woman does.

 

[samuraicrack]

Abortions cost hundreds of dollars and is still a form of birth control, anyone using abortions the way you describe is an idiot and shouldn't be trusted with kids anyway, so let them have their abortions. If a woman wants to be a gigantic slut, who cares? Is this affecting you personally or do your morals say that sex with more than one person is bad? Your morals only apply to you.

What the fuck are you even talking about? If a man is able to carry a child to term, then he can choose to keep it or abort it, but until then, woman have to deal with the brunt of the incubating and can have the choice. But then again, I'm totally fine with a man signing away his parental rights if he doesn't want the kid and the woman does.

Calm down, my entire point is that stupid people shouldn’t be allowed to get away scot free of anything they’ve done, regardless of how big or small it is. Obviously mistakes can be made but if you’re too lazy to learn from those mistakes then tough shit.

I don’t know if anyone has told you this yet, but babies aren’t the result of women alone. I’m not screeching about men having it the hardest, I’m saying that, guess what, it’s a child created by a man AND a woman; you were in your dads ballsack earlier then you were your moms womb, so you kind have to think the person who stored you away for most of his life is allowed to have a say in what happens to the kid.

 

[Old Wizard]

the person who stored you away for most of his life

you were in your dads ballsack earlier then you were your moms womb

Actually it's the mother who stores her gametes for the longest. You (egg you) existed in your mother's ovary while she was still in her mother's womb. On the flip side millions of sperm are made and die per day. I think a more legitimate argument would be that the fetus is 50% biologically him. It's also worth mentioning that it's not like you are the sperm and the sperm eats the egg to grow into a big, strong baby you- you are both the egg and the sperm. Fifty-fifty. And carrying sperm in your balls isn't difficult- pregnancy is. Sorry about the science sperging.

I don't think that a baby should be a punishment and I'm generally pro-choice, but I see the arguments on the other side as well. As long as you're morally consistent in your beliefs I'll respect them as long as you don't force them on me. I consider myself pro-choice primarily because a fetus is not autonomous.

Spoiler: unasked for opinions

I do wish that society in general would have different values in regards to sex and sexual behavior. If pregnancy is life-ruining to you at this point in your life, consider something other than PIV. Condoms should be promoted more as STD prevention than birth control because people are notoriously bad at using them correctly. Male birth control should be just as common as female birth control for double protection. If pro-life advocates were really invested in ending abortion, they would promote birth control (especially IUDs) in poor communities. Ending unwanted pregnancies would be a win for both pro-life and pro-choice.

Also anyone who says anything other than "pro-life" and "pro-choice" (i.e. "anti-life" or "anti-choice") is a massive pretentious dolt.

 

[samuraicrack]

You (egg you) existed in your mother's ovary while she was still in her mother's womb.

You can say the same about the male sperm, though. The egg only has an X chromosome while the sperm has either an X or a Y, so technically at least half of your genetic makeup exists in the father before you're even a fetus, the dad is just the guy who gets the ball rolling.

And who has it the hardest =/= who has higher jurisdiction to decide the fate of other people. If that were the case then Congress should be completely made up of gay black crippled midgets because they've had the hardest lives so they can obviously decide what's best for everyone else, right?

It not being autonomous doesn't really matter if it's still a creature who can grow up into something that's living and breathing, especially thinking about the fact that if they wanted to, your parents could pull the plug and you would never exist (that kind of goes with the question of whether or not you'd be fine with your parents aborting you but that's a whole other subject). If we treat the dead with so much respect to the point of having entire ceremonies over their passing then why do we see the concept of someone who has the potential to be living a full-fledged life as not worth caring about?

Maybe I'm just a shitty motherfucker but if you keep making the mistake over and over again then at some point you should face the consequences for not learning your lessons. I'm not strictly pro-life or pro-choice, like I said. Context matters.

 

[cactus]

Calm down, my entire point is that stupid people shouldn’t be allowed to get away scot free of anything they’ve done, regardless of how big or small it is. Obviously mistakes can be made but if you’re too lazy to learn from those mistakes then tough shit.

I don’t know if anyone has told you this yet, but babies aren’t the result of women alone. I’m not screeching about men having it the hardest, I’m saying that, guess what, it’s a child created by a man AND a woman; you were in your dads ballsack earlier then you were your moms womb, so you kind have to think the person who stored you away for most of his life is allowed to have a say in what happens to the kid.

So you're saying a child should be a punishment for being loose? A human should have to suffer with a lousy parent and life because you frown upon sleeping around? Children should be wanted and loved, not punishments for sex (or stupidity for that matter).

 

[samuraicrack]

So you're saying a child should be a punishment for being loose?

Yep. Same thing applies to guys. Maybe sticking your dick into everything that moves isn't such a good idea at the end of the day.

A human should have to suffer with a lousy parent and life because you frown upon sleeping around?

Depends if every surprise pregnancy results in shitty parenting. I'm ignorant on that front.

Children should be wanted and loved, not punishments for sex (or stupidity for that matter).

If you don't want to be punished with a kid you don't want to raise then don't be a retard. Life sucks.

 

[AnOminous]

If you don't want to be punished with a kid you don't want to raise then don't be an exceptional individual. Life sucks.

So society should be punished with a retard because someone was a slut. Okay.

 

[samuraicrack]

So society should be punished with an exceptional individual because someone was a slut. Okay.

Hey, at least that retard might get a thread here.

 

[A Hot Potato]

Hey, at least that exceptional individual might get a thread here.

Can't argue with that, actually.