Metal Gear Solid 2 is a steaming pile of piss

Just want to say Metal Gear Solid for the PS1 is still affordable to get online, even with emulation.

Yet the Game Boy version is expensive for some reason, even with emulation.

:thinking:
That's because the game boy game (which was the Japanese Metal Gear 2, which never got a US release until the mid-00s, extensively reskinned with new villains and a new plot to make it into a prequel to Metal Gear Solid) was given an ultra low production run due to Konomi not thinking it would be a hit. Especially after it leaked about changes that were forced onto the product via Nintendo's censors board, which caused the game boy game to have negative word of mouth leading up to it's release.

So MGS2 didn't happen? Rose isn't real?

Why is Raiden just a head in MGS4?
Metal Gear Solid 2 happened; they just did some hard retcons in MGS4 (especially the cliffhanger ending with Snake) and sidestepped the entire "is it real or fake" shit, which was probably for the best given how polarizing the game was especially with Raiden.
 
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I want Hideo Kojima to make a western game, starring Cowboyman and Sushi Horseshoe.
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Vidya adaptation?
 
(which was the Japanese Metal Gear 2, which never got a US release until the mid-00s, extensively reskinned with new villains and a new plot to make it into a prequel to Metal Gear Solid)

It really isn't like Metal Gear 2 at all so saying it was a reskin with new villains is wrong. Metal Gear Solid itself is more similar to Metal Gear 2 than Ghost Babel. It also isn't a prequel to MGS but an alternate universe game.
 
I need to address this even though the author might be dead.

When first Metal Gears were released, there was no master plan behind it. Big Boss through his machinations "dies" to bring necessity of people like him to fight for peace. Thus, the plan of deterrent is born. In first MG's the deterrent is Metal Gear itself. Big Boss wanted to put in weigh of world peace on simple fact that nobody would attack each other if one side had the advantage, so mercenaries from 'Diamond dogs" or "Soldiers without borders" are the only eligible to handle wars to maintain peace. Think about this like in mind of Big Boss his group would only have a licence to wage war. Nobody else. Of course, nobody like that idea so his foothold in Zanzibar was destroyed, but the deterrent in Metal Gear wasn't abolished. Here comes the role of Revolver Ocelot who is the only man that got to know Big Boss personally and adores him to the point that to become one of his "sons" he surgically sews in hand of Liquid. That's how fucked up Ocelot/Adam is.

Ocelot is the only man that wants to fulfil Big Boss's last will. Even though BB's last living son is trying to stop him. Here's a catch. While Solid Snake carries genes of BB, Ocelot is carrier of memes of BB. Both are the two sides of same coin. Thats is why the fight on vessel in MGS4 is so great. One was born from blood of greatest warrior that ever walked the Earth and the other is just host of his memes.

That game denies oneself through the series. In MGS1 the doctor behind reviving Gray Fox was a men, while in MGS3 he's a woman. Some facts are misplaced, some people live despite the fact they should be dead (Meryl/Otacon or Solidus Snake). Thing is when Kojima started working on series, he only based it upon sever Western movies, some ideas from previous games (Policenauts) without intention in continuing the work. For example, in MGS2 you may think that Ocelot is possessed by Liquid but in MGS4 Ocelot states that it was just for show.

Kind of disagree there, especially since you make a good point then completely dash it.

In the first two games, Big Boss is basically pure evil and Outer Haven is basically Evil-Land. To the point that the games dabbled in Nazi iconography combined with it being in South Africa, which in the late 80s was still a defacto place in pop culture for where you want unredeemable racist villains due to apartheid. The Metal Gear existed to basically blackmail the world into making Outer Haven it's leader and that Big Boss's motives amounted to "I'm the best soldier/military genius out there, why shouldn't I take over the world instead of being a glorified flunky"?

It wasn't until Metal Gear Solid 3 that they outright whitewashed Big Boss and his motives. They introduced a brand new character (The Boss) and completely retconned the entire lore of the game, to turn it into one where you had various factions fighting and engaging in a lengthy war over how to enact the Boss's idealized dream of a nation of soldiers run by soldiers, that would ensure the grunts of the world are protected from those political forces like Hague who treat soldiers as disposable chattel in wars.

Part of the issue is that MGS 3 became super popular, which combined with Big Boss literally stealing Solid Snake's face while Solid himself got retooled to be an old man with a mustache for marketing reasons and Komami still being bitter Japanese fangirls hated him/US fans keeping Konami from dumping Solid for Raiden, who tested better in Japan which counts more for said company.

Pretty much the lore of MGS 3-4 and 5/Ground Zero has some interesting ideas but the twist at the end of 5 kind of fucks thing up because EVERYTHING was building towards remakes of MG 1 and 2 (and Konami ironing out the continuity snarl of Big Boss surviving MG to be the big bad in MG2. The whole point of 5 should have been building up Big Boss breaking bad and becoming a villain (to the point that hiring Keifer Sutherland to voice Boss in that game should have been seen and treated as the sign that they were making him his own unique character in build up for reintroducing Snake and retelling MG 1-2 with Sutherland voicing Big Boss for those games). But they completely fucked up shit with the twist at the end of MGS 5 and Kojima quitting fucked up the entire build towards the franchise ending with the whole snake coming full circle with big budget MG1 and 2 remakes for next gen systems.
 
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MGS2 was my first game. It's insane how many tools you have at your disposal.

The only really objectionable part is Emma. She wanted Hal' s Worm Cluster up in her Arsenal Guts. This is exactly the type of nonsense that got cut from the first draft of MGS1.
Part of the issue is that MGS 3 became super popular, which combined with Big Boss literally stealing Solid Snake's face and Kojima quitting fucked up the entire build towards the franchise
I feel like that happens with every "prequel" series. It's clear that the writer has fallen in love with their character and no longer thinks badly of them.
 
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Pretty much the lore of MGS 3-4 and 5/Ground Zero has some interesting ideas but the twist at the end of 5 kind of fucks thing up because EVERYTHING was building towards remakes of MG 1 and 2 (and Konami ironing out the continuity snarl of Big Boss surviving MG to be the big bad in MG2.
Frankly, I couldn't force myself to beat MGS5. It's dull, repetitive busy work of taking down pawns that mean nothing for the plot but you need points and money to build a base and extend number of available weapons and services.

Anyway, I didn't like MGS4 and Ground Zeros either. Kojima went out of ideas how to continue saga of MGS without Big Boss or Solid Snake so he revived them like Dr. Frankenstein just for sake to please fanbase. On the other hand, I really liked MGR:R with Raiden because it presented world from totally different perspective. That gives me an impression that theory about Fukushima being the true mastermind behind MGS series is true, because since he dashed and disappeared from gaming industry the MGS become more and more wacky and irresistibly stupid than in the days when Fukushima wrote dialogues for CODEC calls.

The whole point of 5 should have been building up Big Boss breaking bad and becoming a villain (to the point that hiring Keifer Sutherland to voice Boss in that game should have been seen and treated as the sign that they were making him his own unique character in build up for reintroducing Snake and retelling MG 1-2 with Sutherland voicing Big Boss for those games).
I guess you wanted the path of "you die a hero or long enough to become a villain". I can't blame You but I have little faith in what Kojima can really deliver because from storytelling point such thing is very hard to do. Especially when you build up compassionate character in MGS3 and it takes time and effort to make him cross many Rubicon's that will define him as hideous bastard.
Also, please keep in mind that Sutherland replaced David Hayter purely due to personal beef that Kojima had with latter one and tried to replace him since MGS2. For each and every MGS Hayter was told to go for casting even though other actors like Kurt Russel declined offer to give voice for Solid Snake. When the swap was announced and Sutherland gave an interview on how he is honored for giving a voice to iconic video game character I had some high hopes because i like Sutherland and I know he can carry role, but once I heard that the swap was purely intentional hatred of Kojima towards Hayter I knew this game will be a flop.

But they completely fucked up shit with the twist at the end of MGS 5 and Kojima quitting fucked up the entire build towards the franchise ending with the whole snake coming full circle with big budget MG1 and 2 remakes for next gen systems.
If the team behind MGR:R would make a remake of first MG's I am calm that this game at least will be playable unlike vast boredom in MGSV.
 
the twist at the end of 5 kind of fucks thing up because EVERYTHING was building towards remakes of MG 1 and 2 (and Konami ironing out the continuity snarl of Big Boss surviving MG to be the big bad in MG2. The whole point of 5 should have been building up Big Boss breaking bad and becoming a villain

I don't get why anyone believed that Big Boss survival in MG needed an explanation. For one, many characters have survived what should have been certain death in all of the games with little to no explanation. For two, Metal Gear 2 already explained it in a radio call (Big Boss had to have cybernetics to survive the damage).

As for the whole ide that "we needed to see him turn evil" that was literally Peace Walker, specifically the ending really stamped the point home.


I know a lot of people cite this as a reason for MGS V twist, but I completely disagree with them. There were plenty of better ways to do it, MGS V twist was just Kojima being Kojima and doing something he thought was deep when it was just retreading previous themes he did but on such a weaker surface level.
 
Frankly, I couldn't force myself to beat MGS5. It's dull, repetitive busy work of taking down pawns that mean nothing for the plot but you need points and money to build a base and extend number of available weapons and services.

Anyway, I didn't like MGS4 and Ground Zeros either. Kojima went out of ideas how to continue saga of MGS without Big Boss or Solid Snake so he revived them like Dr. Frankenstein just for sake to please fanbase. On the other hand, I really liked MGR:R with Raiden because it presented world from totally different perspective. That gives me an impression that theory about Fukushima being the true mastermind behind MGS series is true, because since he dashed and disappeared from gaming industry the MGS become more and more wacky and irresistibly stupid than in the days when Fukushima wrote dialogues for CODEC calls.


I guess you wanted the path of "you die a hero or long enough to become a villain". I can't blame You but I have little faith in what Kojima can really deliver because from storytelling point such thing is very hard to do. Especially when you build up compassionate character in MGS3 and it takes time and effort to make him cross many Rubicon's that will define him as hideous bastard.
Also, please keep in mind that Sutherland replaced David Hayter purely due to personal beef that Kojima had with latter one and tried to replace him since MGS2. For each and every MGS Hayter was told to go for casting even though other actors like Kurt Russel declined offer to give voice for Solid Snake. When the swap was announced and Sutherland gave an interview on how he is honored for giving a voice to iconic video game character I had some high hopes because i like Sutherland and I know he can carry role, but once I heard that the swap was purely intentional hatred of Kojima towards Hayter I knew this game will be a flop.


If the team behind MGR:R would make a remake of first MG's I am calm that this game at least will be playable unlike vast boredom in MGSV.
You couldn't even be more wrong.

Hayter was replaced for financial reasons. Hayter was paid 4 million USD for MGS4 because of SAG-AFTRA games union contracts. That's why Kojima made it turn to Big Boss story, to reset the contract of voicing the game characters in sequels. If Hayter voiced another Solid Snake game, they would have to pay him 8~10 million USD.

But yeah after Peacewalker, Hayter is really getting expensive again. So, enter Sutherland. Sutherland (before he left his previous agency) was only for 500000 USD, and that comes with star appearances for promotions and mocap work. sure that contract has a royalties for the profits, but Konami would be not hurting for money if the game sold bad, instead of paying huge lump sum of money outright for Hayter

That's why David Hayter is going crazy and getting salty on twitter. His gravy boat basically vanished, and most of his new roles are one-offs. will never get crazy amount of money again like MGS4.
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You couldn't even be more wrong.

Hayter was replaced for financial reasons. Hayter was paid 4 million USD for MGS4 because of SAG-AFTRA games union contracts. That's why Kojima made it turn to Big Boss story, to reset the contract of voicing the game characters in sequels. If Hayter voiced another Solid Snake game, they would have to pay him 8~10 million USD.

I doubt that.
From what I was told, Hayter each time was asked to come for casting and he won wach time. I highly doubt there was any reason besides some beef between Kojima and Hayter. If Hayter was so expensive for Konami, why didn't they replace him in every game before MGS V? He always wanted to replace Hayter and his dreamed actor to take his place was Kurt Russel who each and every time declined the offer. Kojima like every other hack out there is so convinced about his creative superiority to others hat with each game he consolidated power over MGS series to the point when he released boring, blatant MGS V and gamers as stupid as they are sided with this hack blaming Konami for outcome of MGS V despite the fact that another great MGS game with Raiden as main protagonist was smash hit in which Kojima had no involvement at all.
It took them 20 years or so to come to conclusion, they are overpaying him? Personally, I never liked his impersonation of lone-wolf commando. His voiced feels forced and I doubt anyone talks 24/7 with note of doubt.

I am willing to agree with conspiracy theory that the true ghost-writer for the series was Tomokazu Fukushima because since his departure after MGS 4 series become wacky, repetitive and obnoxiously copying elements from pop-culture like a true hack would do before help of ghost-writer (Snatcher, Policenauts etc.). Just look how story is in MGS1 how it is unraveling, how you gain basis of what is really happening to mind numbing Death Stranding in which for 50 hours you don't really know... anything and there are fanatics siding with this badly written game saying this is "art", because Kojima name repeats itself for 30 minutes after game starts. To easily proof that just play MGS Ghost Babel in which Kojima had no involvement at all and it still capturing despite the fact it can be only played on GameBoy.
 
I like MGS2 a lot, but I do agree with OP that the Big Shell was very boring.
Even a single room was basically the same wall texture pasted over and over again, and then the next room was the exact same!

I understand that oil rigs or whatever it was supposed to be aren't built to be aesthetically pleasing, but as a setting for a video game it got real repetitive real quick, and also made the game world unnecessary difficult to learn, because you were constantly confusing rooms or bridges with one another because it all looked the same. And don't give me any shit about how it a deeper message representing the emotional torment of Raiden or whatever.
 
Can someone please explain this mystery that has been bothering me since the game released and is rarely talked about.

You have two possible versions and two similar questions -

Everything is in VR - Okay so how did they wipe his memory so he doesn't know he is in VR, and at the end of the game how does he escape VR? And even if he does escape VR then he is likely in some kind of facility that he must also escape from, how does he do that? How did Snake hack into the VR world?

The events really happened - Okay so how did they wipe his memory and when was it wiped too? Does he remember nothing before he hit the ocean? How did he get there? Did someone drive him to the beach in a van? Did he just waltz into the waves in a weird suit in front of civvies? Where did he get the suit from?

Please someone stop me from wondering this every time I think about MGS2.
You mean Raiden?
I haven't played the game in over a decade but here's what I remember...
He was trained in VR, and he knows he was trained in VR. The events of the game are set in the real world.
Where the confusions comes in is probably the weird stuff at the end of the game, but that's because the Patriots wanted to create a system of total control so they initiated the SSS program, an AI intended to predict and control human behaviour. Raiden was trained in VR to become a Solid Snake stand-in, while Solidus was chosen to play the role of Big Boss, all as a test run for the SSS program. All the events of MGS2 are set in the real world but have been manipulated by an artificial intelligence.

Granted, I could be remembering a lot of this stuff wrong
No that's my recollection as well, the ending gets really weird.
Although we do have MGS4 and that pretty much solidifies it all as having actually happened

So MGS2 didn't happen? Rose isn't real?

Why is Raiden just a head in MGS4?
Rose is real. The ending of MGS2 gets somewhat out of hand... as previously mentioned, like taking down multi metal gears, crashing a big as floating fortress into New York and a katana battle between Raiden and his sort-of-father from back when he was a white child soldier in Africa.
As for why Raiden turned into a cyborg... well Kojima thought it would be cool and he went to the George Lucas school of writing, so he loves it when things are like poetry and rhymes. In MGS1 we had the Cyborg Ninja Frank Jaeger, in MGS2 we had a "cyborg ninja" Olga Gurlukovich so naturally MGS4 also needed one... The official explanation though I believe was that Raiden had himself cybernetically enhanced so that he could fight the Patriots.
 
I doubt that.
From what I was told, Hayter each time was asked to come for casting and he won wach time. I highly doubt there was any reason besides some beef between Kojima and Hayter. If Hayter was so expensive for Konami, why didn't they replace him in every game before MGS V? He always wanted to replace Hayter and his dreamed actor to take his place was Kurt Russel who each and every time declined the offer. Kojima like every other hack out there is so convinced about his creative superiority to others hat with each game he consolidated power over MGS series to the point when he released boring, blatant MGS V and gamers as stupid as they are sided with this hack blaming Konami for outcome of MGS V despite the fact that another great MGS game with Raiden as main protagonist was smash hit in which Kojima had no involvement at all.
It took them 20 years or so to come to conclusion, they are overpaying him? Personally, I never liked his impersonation of lone-wolf commando. His voiced feels forced and I doubt anyone talks 24/7 with note of doubt.

I am willing to agree with conspiracy theory that the true ghost-writer for the series was Tomokazu Fukushima because since his departure after MGS 4 series become wacky, repetitive and obnoxiously copying elements from pop-culture like a true hack would do before help of ghost-writer (Snatcher, Policenauts etc.). Just look how story is in MGS1 how it is unraveling, how you gain basis of what is really happening to mind numbing Death Stranding in which for 50 hours you don't really know... anything and there are fanatics siding with this badly written game saying this is "art", because Kojima name repeats itself for 30 minutes after game starts. To easily proof that just play MGS Ghost Babel in which Kojima had no involvement at all and it still capturing despite the fact it can be only played on GameBoy.
Kojima was already trying to be replace Hayter since MGS2. His voice is shit, gargling gravel trying to be gruff "acting" since MGS2, his voice "acting" in MGS4 is complete shit. Konami even tried to get the real Plisken, Kurt Russel to voice snake and Kurt Russel declines because video games are beneath him, just like with other actors.
And no one in the union would try to take that part because you would get a visit from the union mafia. That's how Hayter basically secured being the voice of Snake for 20 years
The blessing Kojima got is when video games blew up with COD. with news of billions of dollars COD games makes, actors softened up on idea of voice acting in games as it is more easy money.
That's what happened with Hayter. He pushed his retarded delusion that he owned the Snake character, thinking he was indispensable and will get more money.

I know you got a hate boner for Kojima, but if you study his actions over the years, or let's say put yourself in his shoes, you would do the same thing or even more drastic.
Basically to start with the history let's skip to MGS4... Kojima already see that the spaghetti source code that they are using with MGS games are really showing its age. Its basically jerry rig their aging PS2 game engine (which I think was just modified PS1 source code). And with the Lightning Bolt Action: Metal Gear Rising, the technology of the game engine cannot hold up on what he wants with the game.
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Note, Japanese game dev companies are very notorious for basically super penny pinchers, specially with dev tools. in fact RE1 was developed using a mess of a source code from SNES Goof Troop. ( Kojima's situation is different from Resident Evil 5, where Xbox 360 cannot handle the No Mercy level amount of enemies on screen compared to PS3, so they have to dial it back down.)
So, Kojima thinks that the Konami should future-proof their game development tools with a scalable game engine and have an easier dev time and flow. That's how Fox Engine project began. MGR:Lightning Bolt Action was given to Platinum, where they transformed it to Revengeance. Remember, up until even to 2013, Konami was still using PS2 game engine for their games. That's how backward Konami is, or mainly their video games side.

One of the main focus of Fox Engine is the smooth animation/transition, multiple animations. That's why MGSV has one of the smoothest climb animations in a game. Most, if not all games are programmed that the character snap into a place before doing the animation, while snake can climb from different approach vectors.
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So, anyway, the reality is, developing a game engine is hard, and takes a long time and EXPENSIVE. The fact they made Fox Engine in 3 years is a very great feat (Note, Unreal Engine 4 started development in 2005 and released in 2012). But at this time Konami started to focus on being an entertainment company (outside of video games) and started making slot machines. I think Konami now holds the market for the gambling slot machines that you see in Vegas. So, when Konami starts making more money on Bemani and Yugioh games than what MGS game can, Konami starts to see MGS as basically underperforming franchise.
So, yeah, Konami started to meddle with MGSV development, insisting it to be crossplatformed, instead of next gen only, which basically cut a lot of things and features, like more populated map, etc, etc, etc.
So, if you think Kojima is being a hack, palling with Hollywood, showing MGSV branded Triumph bikes, expensive sunglasses, most of it to secure funding and showing that the MGS has a huge influence as an IP. That's the only reason why Kojima and his team wasn't fully "Gunpei Yokoi'd", because MGSV is still being made.
So, yeah, I give Kojima an A++ grade, specially for just being a vice president of the company. He's more level-headed than what you think a game director/auteur are. When he saw that MGR is not working, he didn't try to force it, he hired other company to build a game on the foundations Kojima built. he tried to move the company forward to the future. Its just that Konami saw that their future is Bemani arcade games and Las Vegas slot machines.
 
I like MGS2 and I have multiple copies of the game counting re-releases and I would love to live in the reality where MGS2 was going to be released as MGS3 in the box art to reinforce the "information control" while being marketed as MGS2 up until launch.

I could not find the note nor I can not remember where did I found that to back up my claim. If any wants to point my retardness go ahead.

The game has flaws and it has not aged very well IMO but is still fun. I still like MGS3 more tho.
 
I like MGS2 a lot, but I do agree with OP that the Big Shell was very boring. Even a single room was basically the same texture
They repeat the textures to drive home that this is a palette swap of Shadow Moses. Same wall panels, same elevator controls, same bosses to an extent.

Whether that was a good idea is another question.
 
They repeat the textures to drive home that this is a palette swap of Shadow Moses. Same wall panels, same elevator controls, same bosses to an extent.

Whether that was a good idea is another question.

Kojima apologists say this, but I've never EVER felt that Big Shell resembled Shadow Moses in any fucking way outside of the elevator controls and the fact it had a dock with an elevator.

The narrative and events mirrored it, but not the majority of the environment.

I could not find the note nor I can not remember where did I found that to back up my claim. If any wants to point my retardness go ahead.

Document of MGS2 had the original internal alpha presentations that presented it as "MGS III". I'm guessing any documentation you saw was from there as well but I can't remember because I haven't watched anything from it in probably 15 years.

 
Kojima apologists say this, but I've never EVER felt that Big Shell resembled Shadow Moses in any fucking way outside of the elevator controls and the fact it had a dock with an elevator.

The narrative resembled it, but not the majority of the environment.
I'm the furthest thing from a Kojima apologist.

2 is doing an elaborate dance where it tries to resemble MGS1 (dock, helipad, bloody corridor, electrified floor, torture room), but not too much. Ocelot has a line stating that Fatman was a test to see if Raiden was up to the task, whereupon the game jacknifes into the Shadow Moses mission (Anderson/Aimes).
 
I'm the furthest thing from a Kojima apologist.

2 is doing an elaborate dance where it tries to resemble MGS1 (dock, helipad, bloody corridor, electrified floor, torture room), but not too much. Ocelot has a line stating that Fatman was a test to see if Raiden was up to the task, whereupon the game jacknifes into the Shadow Moses mission (Anderson/Aimes).

I didn't mean to say you're one, just that they love to parrot this like it's a 1 to 1 when it is more the events that are mirrored more than the environment itself.

Like the helipad doesn't resemble the helipad from Shadow Moses at all, and it doesn't even function the same way with searchlights or anything. It's just a helipad. (and I think that's the point, like you said Fatman was the test before the actual S3 went into effect so why would the Helipad be trying to emulate Shaodw Moses at that point?)

The electric floor is there, but the environment itself doesn't resemble Shadow Moses at all, instead of a hallway of electrified floors it's just a small section to recreate the event.

If that is actually what you were trying to say then I'm sorry I misunderstood.
 
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