Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker - Won an Oscar

[Tasty Tatty]

Spoiler: Reasons why in the film that is wrong on both sides

The whole movie isn't really about a rich vs poor narrative where Arthur Fleck himself isn't political at all as he states clearly in his interview. Arthur spells out how he sees nothing but ugly and bad people everywhere and in the context of the film they come from all walks of life from the richest of rich with Thomas Wayne to the poor with the kids who beat him down to chasing down the sign and the case worker who seems to be going through the motions of therapy. Everyone in this film for the most part are either aloof assholes or violent assholes where the rioters are less looking to ways to improve conditions in the city as they are going to want to pillage and destroy and the rich don't seem to care their own city is decaying or are dismissive of the bottom rung.

I think the way the riots that were handled in this film were very mature and it is disturbing where as Arthur is being taken away and he gets to view Gotham on fire and destroyed, he starts to laugh at the great joke that is society and you see the horror on the police officer's face who seem to just trying to get by as they do their job and see that the chaos is near unstoppable.

This is similar to the plot of The Dark Knight. Most of the Joker's tantrums are about how chaos is good and how people are inherent bad and don't care about others. Batman tells him, at the end, that he's wrong because people proved to be good or, at least, not bad. This is a Joker movie, and I guess (I havent' yet watched it aaaaaaaaah!!) it's meant to give you a sense of despair and chaos because it lacks the hope and order feeling that is Batman and that will later arrive. I kinda like that because in other iterations, they made it look like Batman created the Joker. Here, Joker created Batman. Work either way, imo as they're complement.

 

[Revo]

I sawed the full movie and it's is one of the best movies made in 2019 and i found the reason why all critics and people who works in many forms of media in general considered that this movie is proincel, pronazi, scary, boring and other excuses , because the movies describes them very well.The atmosphere of this movie is same with atmosphere from They Live,Bully and Hotline Miami series.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Just realized the composer for this one also did the soundtrack for HBOs chernobyl as well. I think I have a new fav movie music maker now. She is a legit genius at setting tone.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

It's the same reason they hated the recent Judge Dredd movie as well. This Joker movie has really illuminated something. These people are still children. They truly dont have a concept of what evil actually looks like in the real world. It's never some dark lord who goes about in a black Cape looking all evil and being bad because he wants to be bad. Evil can be some mentally ill loner who cares for his mother and gets kicked one too many times. Or in the case of Dredd, a beaten up former whore who has had a few screws knocked loose and doing what she thinks she has to do to survive in a society that has to eat it's own dead to function.

They simply cannot deal with Evil that is not only plausible but known to be real. And they certainly cannot deal with the confrontation of what actual violence is. Hell even the Berkley riots were just a bunch of Kids Larping at being revolutionaries. Not one of those black clad morons were actually setting out to kill someone. The more recent incident with the bike lock dude, even he probably was not actually thinking he was going to kill the dude he brained with it.

And such an uncompromising depiction of what evil actually is and what violence actually is makes them realize that if they encountered the Joker on a subway train at 1 AM, they would not be the bat man. They would just be a simple salaryman who incidentally, also does not have a gun either, or the will to use it.

And that is absolutely terrifying.

There is a talk by Jordan Peterson that has really stuck with me where he says that Hitler's followers were not evil people. They were in fact people who probably would have never imagined themselves doing evil things, yet, they did. Most of the woke crowds and SJWs are the same: they are not necessarily bad people (as they believe they're doing good) but they are doing evil things. Yet, they believe themselves to be heroes. When they see Captain America punching Hitler, they believe they're exactly the same. And most of current movies are pandering to them, especially the critics who write shirt articles such as "Captain America is the perfect movie for a post-Trump era". They don't realize, or don't want to realize, that they are not the heroes in this (real life) story. They're not even the innocent bystander who's indifferent while a crime is being committed, they're the un/willing goons.

 

[Judge Holden]

Just realized the composer for this one also did the soundtrack for HBOs chernobyl as well. I think I have a new fav movie music maker now. She is a legit genius at setting tone.

IIRC she used an actual old soviet nuclear plant as the sauce for a lot of the soundtrack a bit like how the Doom 2016 soundtrack sampled actual chainsaw and sledgehammer sounds

There is a talk by Jordan Peterson that has really stuck with me where he says that Hitler's followers were not evil people. They were in fact people who probably would have never imagined themselves doing evil things, yet, they did. Most of the woke crowds and SJWs are the same: they are not necessarily bad people (as they believe they're doing good) but they are doing evil things. Yet, they believe themselves to be heroes. When they see Captain America punching Hitler, they believe they're exactly the same. And most of current movies are pandering to them, especially the critics who write shirt articles such as "Captain America is the perfect movie for a post-Trump era". They don't realize, or don't want to realize, that they are not the heroes in this (real life) story. They're not even the innocent bystander who's indifferent while a crime is being committed, they're the un/willing goons.

Ver archivo adjunto 963717

Honestly the amount of doublethink needed to pretend that "people who say they are fighting evil fascism are ALWAYS the good guys, and anybody who gets called a fascist is ALWAYS the bad guy" is a legitimate worldview is just astonishing.

Like....how the fuck do you erase all the genocidal murders, mass rapes, industrial scale torture and enslavement, ethnic cleansings, forced famines, and every other imaginable crime against humanity comitted by the USSR, PRC, Cambodia, and North Korea to name a few and still declare yourself to be on the right side of history?!

 

[friedshrimp]

Just finished seeing it. It's very harsh, yeah. Harsh, unnerving, cold and depressing, but it doesn't feel hokey. It does pretty well getting you inside the character's mind. I don't really think the violence was that extreme as the pearl clutchers lied, but the film does carry a heavy atmosphere. I can see this film not being everyone's cup of tea, but for more reasons than just "this film panders to Nazis reeee where is Tony Stark to save me". I did like the random weird bits of humor in the film, too.

Also I do find it funny how the left has piled on to it, considering the message I read was pretty woke.

Spoiler

Thomas Wayne seemed almost Trumpian, and the people most vulnerable in this society were all the outcasts: the single mothers, the mentally ill, the little people...It pretty much spells it out that a shitty atmosphere for vulnerable people will turn them into monsters. Not to mention it calls out abusive parents and shitty mental health care, which Tumblr is always babbling on about. You'd think they'd project onto Arthur like crazy.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Just finished seeing it. It's very harsh, yeah. Harsh, unnerving, cold and depressing, but it doesn't feel hokey. It does pretty well getting you inside the character's mind. I don't really think the violence was that extreme as the pearl clutchers lied, but the film does carry a heavy atmosphere. I can see this film not being everyone's cup of tea, but for more reasons than just "this film panders to Nazis reeee where is Tony Stark to save me". I did like the random weird bits of humor in the film, too.

Also I do find it funny how the left has piled on to it, considering the message I read was pretty woke.

Spoiler

Thomas Wayne seemed almost Trumpian, and the people most vulnerable in this society were all the outcasts: the single mothers, the mentally ill, the little people...It pretty much spells it out that a shitty atmosphere for vulnerable people will turn them into monsters.

Actually M'due

Spoiler

Thomas was running against the government that cut the funds for these people. But they were still mad at him

 

[Wazzupnerds]

I'll argue Thomas, while an asshole, is the scapegoat for the lower class mob in the film. He did say something stupid with the clowns quote, and treat Aurther like an asshole, he wanted to change the system for the better.

 

[BrunoMattei]

This is similar to the plot of The Dark Knight. Most of the Joker's tantrums are about how chaos is good and how people are inherent bad and don't care about others. Batman tells him, at the end, that he's wrong because people proved to be good or, at least, not bad. This is a Joker movie, and I guess (I havent' yet watched it aaaaaaaaah!!) it's meant to give you a sense of despair and chaos because it lacks the hope and order feeling that is Batman and that will later arrive. I kinda like that because in other iterations, they made it look like Batman created the Joker. Here, Joker created Batman. Work either way, imo as they're complement.

But the Joker won at the end of Dark Knight. He corrupted Harvey Dent.

 

[Wazzupnerds]

But the Joker won at the end of Dark Knight. He corrupted Harvey Dent.

Yep! People like to act that Infinity War is the first film in super hero films that the hero doesn't wins. I argue TDK is. Joker took a symbol of the people and turned it against them. The only reason people didn't know is because Batman and Gordon hid the fact Harvey was evil.

 

[friedshrimp]

Yep! People like to act that Infinity War is the first film in super hero films that the hero wins. I argue TDK is. Joker took a symbol of the people and turned it against them. The only reason people didn't know is because Batman and Gordon hid the fact Harvey was evil.

Remember for MCU fans there were no superhero movies before Iron Man's 2008, so they would do everything in their power to dismiss any movie that doesn't have the Marvel label.

 

[Wazzupnerds]

Remember for MCU fans there were no superhero movies before Iron Man's 2008, so they would do everything in their power to dismiss any movie that doesn't have the Marvel label.

As a MCU fan I very much disagree with that idea. Lot of fans respect the past.

 

[byuu]

Remember for MCU fans there were no superhero movies before Iron Man's 2008, so they would do everything in their power to dismiss any movie that doesn't have the Marvel label.

Didn't TDK came out after Iron Man?

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Yep! People like to act that Infinity War is the first film in super hero films that the hero doesn't wins. I argue TDK is. Joker took a symbol of the people and turned it against them. The only reason people didn't know is because Batman and Gordon hid the fact Harvey was evil.

The hero losing [and i'd argue the Hero didn't lose in TDKR he had a tainted victory] Isnt even one of the more compelling elements of IW

 

[Bread Fetishist]

Yep! People like to act that Infinity War is the first film in super hero films that the hero doesn't wins. I argue TDK is. Joker took a symbol of the people and turned it against them. The only reason people didn't know is because Batman and Gordon hid the fact Harvey was evil.

I believe you meant villain.

 

[BrunoMattei]

Didn't TDK came out after Iron Man?

1 or 2 months after Iron Man.

 

[Wazzupnerds]

Didn't TDK came out after Iron Man?

Yeah, two months after

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

I believe you meant villain.

I thought Ledger Joker was the hero

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Speed Racer, not exactly a (super) hero, came around the time of Iron Man and the message was that corporations are the enemy of the individual. Oh the iron-y.

I'll argue Thomas, while an asshole, is the scapegoat for the lower class mob in the film. He did say something stupid with the clowns quote, and treat Aurther like an asshole, he wanted to change the system for the better.

Like Drumphf? He's hated because he's politically incorrect, not because what he does is necessarily bad.

But the Joker won at the end of Dark Knight. He corrupted Harvey Dent.

He didn't corrupted him as much as he killed his girlfriend and destroyed his life and body. Batman still managed to cover it all up to save the people from finding out. The target were always the people, not Batman. I wouldn't say Batman won either, but he rather neutralized the Joker's attempts to make them lose hope (I don't know what happens in the next movie because I haven't watched it).

 

[Doctor of Autism]

But the Joker won at the end of Dark Knight. He corrupted Harvey Dent.

I don’t think Joker really won with that as his goal was to corrupt the people and show them how society to go downhill. While Batman and Gordon failed to save Harvey, it was largely covered up so the public would still think of him as a hero till Bane exposed it in the Dark Knight Rises.

Yep! People like to act that Infinity War is the first film in super hero films that the hero doesn't wins. I argue TDK is. Joker took a symbol of the people and turned it against them. The only reason people didn't know is because Batman and Gordon hid the fact Harvey was evil.

I think people treat IW that way is because they have been so used to seeing the Avengers win at the end of every movie, and the way Thanos won was presented as a disturbing apocalyptic event so it’s more noticeable to see.