Race Realists and Racialists

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Intelligence has been tied to moral standing from the Greeks forward in Western civilization. The fact that moral standing was also tied with good breeding does not negate that, just like environmental factors affecting intelligence doesn't negate genetic factors affecting intelligence or vice versa.

No, it was not that big a deal for some time. It was usually just liked when it was good times. In the middle ages it was not seen as that important by far. Sure a smart noble was better than a dumb one, but even the smartest peasant was beneath Lord Tism. And there was this whole thing about battle prowess...

Do not move your goalposts I remember your slippery commie talk from the election thread. We were talking about what was seen as the prime and most important characteristic in the past. Now you are sliding that goalpost to "oh not the most important but important" because you can never admit that you had been wrong, even when Trump is shitposting from the white house.

You can not even admit that it was not continously the most important factor in morality. Just go to the midde east and ask if a sunni if a dumb sunni is better than a smart shia or not, or the other way around.
 
No, it was not that big a deal for some time. It was usually just liked when it was good times. In the middle ages it was not seen as that important by far. Sure a smart noble was better than a dumb one, but even the smartest peasant was beneath Lord Tism. And there was this whole thing about battle prowess...

Do not move your goalposts I remember your slippery commie talk from the election thread. We were talking about what was seen as the prime and most important characteristic in the past. Now you are sliding that goalpost to "oh not the most important but important" because you can never admit that you had been wrong, even when Trump is shitposting from the white house.

You can not even admit that it was not continously the most important factor in morality. Just go to the midde east and ask if a sunni if a dumb sunni is better than a smart shia or not, or the other way around.
The answer you'd get from the Sunni would be "If they were truly smart, they would not be Shia'". Intelligence has always been valued and seen as correlated with spiritual/moral authority; even in primitive tribes, the shaman has his power because he knows "secret ways" that others cannot understand. I never said that it was the prime or most important moral characteristic: you just want to argue against that point because it's easily disproved. Please, produce a society in which intelligence (not ideological deviance, but the idea of intelligence itself) was viewed as evil.
 
The answer you'd get from the Sunni would be "If they were truly smart, they would not be Shia'". Intelligence has always been valued and seen as correlated with spiritual/moral authority; even in primitive tribes, the shaman has his power because he knows "secret ways" that others cannot understand. I never said that it was the prime or most important moral characteristic: you just want to argue against that point because it's easily disproved. Please, produce a society in which intelligence (not ideological deviance, but the idea of intelligence itself) was viewed as evil.

Communism under Mao. Hah!

But we never argued over it being evil or bad. The argument was it being the MOST IMPORTANT and only mattering indicator for moral or any other kind of superiority.
First you brought moral superiority in, when we were talking about any type of superiority.

Second you now argue about it being somewhat important.

The argument was about your IQ being the only virtue one cares about.

Which it was not in the middle ages. I never said being smart was bad any time. I said it was not always the most important and exlusive indicator.

All you had to do to "win" and "epic ownz" me was to say "yeah liberals came up with it but racists use it more nowdays because they are jealous and insecure how big Obama's dong is."
 
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Do not move your goalposts I remember your slippery commie talk from the election thread. We were talking about what was seen as the prime and most important characteristic in the past. Now you are sliding that goalpost to "oh not the most important but important" because you can never admit that you had been wrong, even when Trump is shitposting from the white house.
Tying every single goddamn debate back to Trump no matter how tenuous the connection isn't any less autistic when it's right-wingers doing it
 
Communism under Mao. Hah!

But we never argued over it being evil or bad. The argument was it being the MOST IMPORTANT and only mattering indicator for moral or any other kind of superiority.
First you brought moral superiority in, when we were talking about any type of superiority.

Second you now argue about it being somewhat important.

The argument was about your IQ being the only virtue one cares about.

Which it was not in the middle ages. I never said being smart was bad any time. I said it was not always the most important and exlusive indicator.

All you had to do to "win" and "epic ownz" me was to say "yeah liberals came up with it but racists use it more nowdays because they are jealous and insecure how big Obama's dong is."
Except that'd defeat the fact that Obama was allegedly well known in Chicago's closet black gay communit.y
 
You're correct that evolution can happen in a much shorter time frame. However, we are heavily specialized, multi-cellular type organisms and any slight change in our DNA chains are minimal compared to the evolution a species of bacteria or even fungus can have. The more complex the being, the slower the evolution will be.

I do believe that 'races' as we see them in humans exist only in the context of subspecies and you are correct that it is often difficult for ethnicity X to interbreed successfully with ethnicity Y, and this act is not without its challenges (see blood marrow donation issues for mulattoes on this) but I also think we were not meant to fly or create devices with supersonic speeds or instantaneous communication devices. We did all of these things, somehow, and instead of wanting to use our non-negligible resources at our disposal to improve the lot of the lives of other races/ethnicities around the world in their homelands, we think it charitable to invite them to ours instead.

im not sure if you understand how evolution works. the genetic code gets more and more diverse in good times. every individual in a species will be able to eat and reproduction is more a game of chance and not one of superiority. in hard time, you will see pockets of survivers, groups of individuals with the same adaptation to survive. those pockets will form new species over some time of isolation. the other major form of becoming a species is "randomly" becoming a group of outcasts with a small gene pool, like a group of birds who became inhabitants of some far out island because of a freak storm.
You will never see any speciation in a big thriving population no matter the time scale.

for Humans, every part of scientific date shows that humans are close to a ring species but thats not political correct.
(lease dont let me explain how a ring species is formed, that would take hours and the theories arent that well formulated yet, bit we have a good idea)
 
I've met plenty of extremely high IQ people of all races and I've also met extremely low IQ people of all races. What's funny is how detached the smartest were from the rest of society. You can literally single them out in a crowd.

Yeah even looking at the data that supposedly "proves" race realism the numbers are so highly variable that you couldn't make a guess of someone's IQ based on race. Also intelligence is such a hard to define concept that IQ is really only a correlate in exceptionally high or low IQ people. Even then IQ only correlates to intelligence if you actually try to educate yourself. I've seen plenty of high IQ people who just languish in mediocrity due to laziness.
 
The Stormfront owner's son "defected" from WN and went on to write a book about it. Don Black's response was that he's still in touch and friendly to his son's girlfriend, who reportedly is Jewish.

This from the site that has for 24 years maintained that "race traitors" be disowned from their families.
 
One thing I've noticed is they bitch about refugees invading and erasing native european stock, but then make excuses for hitler...whose goal was to do the exact same thing to all non-saxon whites, especially le based slav polish. When you don't have ethics beyond your 23andme, it leads you to weird places.

As an italian, their whole concept of pan-european identity is ludicrous to me, bc nobody hates each other better than europeans. Italy couldn't unite for centuries, even though italians are basically genetically identical to each other, because of all the regional bullshit. If you went back in time and told slobodan milosevic he should stop genociding the bosniaks because muh haplogroups, you think he'd listen? Cmon.
 
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IQ skeptics should also throw away their pysch meds because the methodological basis for IQ testing is as strong as anything else in Psychology. IQ is also more predictive for groups than individuals, large datasets reduce outliers skewing results. This is real basic stuff but otherwise smart people will turn their brains off to avoid accepting it.
 
I got real fucking irritated in a college class being told that race is a social construct when I know of medical differences (the ones I am aware of have nothing to do with intellect, it is stuff like cystic fibrosis being a risk for northern europeans, hispanic communities having way more O- blood so blood drives try to advertise in spanish, sickle cell anemia is a risk for people with african acestry, etc). The dipshit psych professor tried to tell me that he watched a documentary that debunked the medical differences. There is so much butthurt around this topic in every direction it is hard to know who is telling the truth.

The pozzing about race is horrifying even in scientific, para-medical textbooks. I have here on my table a book called Evolutionary Medicine (Sterns and Medzhitov, 2016, Sinauer -- a very good publisher of biological texts). In Chapter 2, after presenting a detailed trajectory (with a cladogram) how modern human evolved since they left Africa, the authors give a subsection entitled "Support of the concept of race is weak" (p.34). The idea is that, when you pick two random people in the world and examine their genes, you'll find that only 10% of their genetic differences are accountable by race. The percentage difference depends on how you look at things, and I reproduce the table (p.36) in the book, with minor modifications

PolymorphismAuthorNumber of LociNumber of groups (i.e. races)Diff. within populations / samples (%)Diff. among populations within same groups (%)Difference among groups (%)
ProteinLewotin (1972)17784.58.36.3
ProteinRyman (1983)253862.811.2
DNA (RFLP)Barbujani (1997)1094 or 584.44.710.8
Single-nucleotide
Polymorphism (SNP)
Li (2008 )650000788.92.19
(I'm not allowed to add hyperlinks in a table, so I have to list the papers separately. Fortunately, all are available for free.)
Lewotin (1972). The approportionment of human diversity.
Ryman (1983). Differences in the relative distribution of human gene diversity between electrophoretic and red and white cell antigen loci.
Barbujani (1997). An apportionment of human DNA diversity.

Li (2008 ). Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome-Wide Patterns of Variation

So in summary, current research show that race can account for 6-11% of the difference found between humans. So can we say, as Sterns and Medzhitov did, that "Support of the concept of race is weak"? My first complain is terminology. The authors seems to have confused "weakness" with "lack of magnitude". When you say that the support of something is (statistically) weak, we don't mean that the observed differences are small; what we mean is that the observed difference are likely to be due to chance (in statistical parlance, we say the p-value is insignificant). So we can say "there is a strong support of a tiny difference" and vice versa. Of the four papers, only Barbujani presented the p-values (and they are often significant). Li uses various high-powered statistical tests and interpretation is not straightforword (SNP analysis itself carries oodles of statistical problems anyway). So in conclusion, Sterns and Medzhitov are NOT justified to say that "support of the concept of race is weak"; at most they can say, "race accounts for a small difference of human biology, though the strength of the support is untested."

My second complain concerns the validity of quantitative analysis. The two protein studies only measured a handful of proteins expressed in the red and white blood cells, which are poor shadows of the vast variety of human proteins. Comparisons between DNA sequences and especially SNPs can tell us only so much. We know there is a difference, but we don't know whether, or how much of the difference in DNA are actually expressed, or contribute to (or even correlate with) gene expression. In other words. we don't know whether the differences matter.

To further alleviate the rage of SJW harpies, Sterns and Medzhitov added that in the summary of the section (p.36):

Biological support of the concept of race is weak; race is primary a social construct.
Yet they want to have their cake and eat it too, for in the next sentence:

Because of the huge size of the genome, however, there are genetic difference associated with ethnicity that contain useful medical information about drug metabolism and disease resistance.

So race is "primary a social construct", but said "social construct" somehow informs us about drug metabolism, etc. Riddle me that! I conclude that 1) race is almost certainly a biologically real phenomenon, and 2) pure quantitative assays, noting just how DNA sequences differ but NOT whether they differ in places that matter, may not represent the true magnitude of difference between races (for which we need to compare, say, the transcriptomes of various cell types for a large number of people, and that's tedious and expensive even today).
 
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So race is "primary a social construct", but said "social construct" somehow informs us about drug metabolism, etc. Riddle me that! I conclude that 1) race is almost certainly a biologically real phenomenon, and 2) pure quantative assays, noting just how DNA sequences differ but NOT whether they differ in places that matter, may not represent the true magnitude of difference (for which we need to compare, say, the transcriptomes of a large number of people, and that's tedious and expensive even today).

Yes, genetic drift is the real litmus of race, as I said above, but which you seemed to disagree. IQ is a standardized test that absolutely fails to account for self-interest and psychological states at time of testing. Also, your immunological memory will differ from any X amount of population depending on what diseases or disease variations are prevalent in your region. I think we can attest that conclusively with the explosion of syphilis in the European populations in the mid to late 15th century and the many deaths of native American populations thanks to the common cold and the flu, both of which they apparently evolved without.
 
So race is "primary a social construct", but said "social construct" somehow informs us about drug metabolism, etc. Riddle me that! I conclude that 1) race is almost certainly a biologically real phenomenon, and 2) pure quantative assays, noting just how DNA sequences differ but NOT whether they differ in places that matter, may not represent the true magnitude of difference (for which we need to compare, say, the transcriptomes of a large number of people, and that's tedious and expensive even today).
I mean there are some people who falsely claim that race has no biological basis, but I always thought the social construct part of race was referring to stereotypes of cultures.
 
I mean there are some people who falsely claim that race has no biological basis, but I always thought the social construct part of race was referring to stereotypes of cultures.
I think it mainly refers to manufactured definitions of "whiteness", "blackness", etc. All niggers are niggers, even though there's about four million different ethnic groups in Africa. Likewise, the modern conception of white identity in America came from racist pushback after the Civil War. That's why the concept of white pride is always under such intense scrutiny. It's rarely ever an actual cultural celebration so much as a "we love not being darkies or gooks" circle jerk.
 
I think it mainly refers to manufactured definitions of "whiteness", "blackness", etc. All niggers are niggers, even though there's about four million different ethnic groups in Africa. Likewise, the modern conception of white identity in America came from racist pushback after the Civil War. That's why the concept of white pride is always under such intense scrutiny. It's rarely ever an actual cultural celebration so much as a "we love not being darkies or gooks" circle jerk.
Yeah I've heard modern day nationalist movements refereed to as globalized nationalism due to how copy and paste alot of the rhetoric is and how historic rivals and differences have just taped over with with this vague white culture which just combines every European culture and philosophical tradition into one easily digestible "western" package
 
Yeah I've heard modern day nationalist movements refereed to as globalized nationalism due to how copy and paste alot of the rhetoric is and how historic rivals and differences have just taped over with with this vague white culture which just combines every European culture and philosophical tradition into one easily digestible "western" package
Personally I find it hilarious when a disgusting Germano-celtoid hybrid who never left the US declares himself the cultural descendant of Augustus or some shit.
 
IQ is a standardized test that absolutely fails to account for self-interest and psychological states at time of testing.

Lol no please actually do some reading on psychometric testing before you spout this. Psychological states are well accounted for and essentially becomes noise in large samples.

Also, your immunological memory will differ from any X amount of population depending on what diseases or disease variations are prevalent in your region. I think we can attest that conclusively with the explosion of syphilis in the European populations in the mid to late 15th century and the many deaths of native American populations thanks to the common cold and the flu, both of which they apparently evolved without.

Lmao nigga where do you think races came from like nigga its just taxonomy hahahahaha nigga isolated populations develop different traits bruh.

It's rarely ever an actual cultural celebration so much as a "we love not being darkies or gooks" circle jerk.

I think you mean its more a "we hate being white but we hate white people who dont hate being white even more" circle jerk as this is by far the most common and most influential mode of white identity, not fringe white nationalists who are shunned from every section of society. But there is a good point to be made that legitimate white identity in the US is weak, this has more to do intra-white historical ethnic and class warfare than anything, American blacks are united by slavery (and barely so because black identity and cooperation is as much contrawhite as it is anything else, something crit race theorists cant accept). They have no real unity with recent African migrants, and Liberia immediately decided to replicate their previous owners social structures on the natives.

Race in and of itself is too weak to create organic social bonds, only can be used to exploit fracture points.
 
I think you mean its more a "we hate being white but we hate white people who dont hate being white even more" circle jerk as this is by far the most common and most influential mode of white identity, not fringe white nationalists who are shunned from every section of society. But there is a good point to be made that legitimate white identity in the US is weak, this has more to do intra-white historical ethnic and class warfare than anything, American blacks are united by slavery (and barely so because black identity and cooperation is as much contrawhite as it is anything else, something crit race theorists cant accept). They have no real unity with recent African migrants, and Liberia immediately decided to replicate their previous owners social structures on the natives.

Race in and of itself is too weak to create organic social bonds, only can be used to exploit fracture points.

'Race' is too global. If you want to read about the breakdown of identity, I suggest searching for Edward Bernays' book since he was partly responsible for it. Since you're calling for readings and all. Every single applied Fabian strategy involves breaking down what can bring you together with other people of similar backgrounds and putting you against them AND people of different backgrounds, including, yes, your race.
 
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