Katholic Kiwi Kathedral (Catholicism General) - It's a place for Catholic Kiwis to discuss Catholicism and inquirers to inquire.

Who is the best Catholic apologist alive today?

  • Bishop Robert Barron

    Votos: 73 38.0%
  • Fr. Mike Schmitz

    Votos: 83 43.2%
  • Trent Horn

    Votos: 47 24.5%
  • Jimmy Akin

    Votos: 20 10.4%
  • Joe Heschmeyer

    Votos: 13 6.8%
  • Matt Fradd

    Votos: 11 5.7%
  • Scott Hahn

    Votos: 23 12.0%
  • Brayden Cook - TheCatechumen

    Votos: 4 2.1%
  • Taylor Marshall

    Votos: 8 4.2%
  • Christian Fagner

    Votos: 11 5.7%
  • James White

    Votos: 17 8.9%

  • Total de votantes
    192
Point being, the position of the SSPX, Sedes, and others that in fact, if not on paper, reject the authority of the current leadership in Rome is entirely dependent on Vatican II being a second Hieria that was unfortunately accepted, if not imposed outright, by the hierarchy.
No it depends on a kind Neo-Donatism and a false idea that a valid ecumenical council can teach heresy. Hieria didn’t have a pope, Vatican II did. Why are we equivocating here?

How about if everyone just says what they mean. Say you think Vatican II is heretical. Say you’ll obey the church when it happens to agree with you. I don’t see the need to give schismatics flowers all the damn time unless you’re one of them, or at least broadly sympathetic. I think all crypto-sedes should just make themselves known so we can figure out who is Catholic and who belongs to a sect that will be ordaining women within our lifetimes.
I think most would agree that appending a decree and outright abrogating it are two very different matters. If nothing else, Clement VIII and Urban VIII acknowledge Quo primum and grant it due respect. Can the same be said for Francis defying it to the letter?
Quo primum established Pius V’s Missal as a permanent disciplinary norm, not as an irreformable dogma binding every future pope. Its language of perpetuity meant that inferior authorities could not suppress the authorized Missal at will. It did not prevent a later pope, possessing the same supreme legislative authority as Pius V, from promulgating a revised Roman Missal and regulating the use of earlier editions. Therefore Traditionis custodes does not contradict Quo primum merely by restricting the use of the 1962 Missal. Find a source that contradicts me.

You did not even answer the question. Did Clement VIII and Urban VIII possess the authority to revise the Missal promulgated by St. Pius V. Yes or no.
The simply existence of the perpetuity clause makes your explanation regarding discipline completely irrelevant.
It doesn’t actually. We understand documents by their authority, and the extent to which their language can affect is constrained by the authority or kind of action being made—or else popes could issue ex cathedra from a plane interview by saying “this is ex cathedra”; your conclusion is absurd and obtuse. The hanging on for dear life to Pope St Pius V is a classic sedevacantist argument btw. Are you a sede?
If Quo primum is not in fact possible to be held in perpetuity, then St. Pius V is wrong.
No. A disciplinary law can be intended to endure perpetually and still be altered by a later legislator possessing equal or superior authority.
 
It did not prevent a later pope, possessing the same supreme legislative authority as Pius V, from promulgating a revised Roman Missal and regulating the use of earlier editions. Therefore Traditionis custodes does not contradict Quo primum merely by restricting the use of the 1962 Missal. Find a source that contradicts me.

You did not even answer the question. Did Clement VIII and Urban VIII possess the authority to revise the Missal promulgated by St. Pius V. Yes or no.
Again, you are deliberately obfuscating the difference between appending an existing papal bull and outright abrogating it, or in your comically disingenuous words "merely [...] restricting the use of the 1962 Missal". What Clement VIII and Urban VIII did is in no way comparable to Traditiones Custodes.

The hanging on for dear life to Pope St Pius V is a classic sedevacantist argument btw. Are you a sede?
I'm sure you wish I were one.

disciplinary law can be intended to endure perpetually and still be altered by a later legislator possessing equal or superior authority.
Then it's no longer being held in perpetuity, meaning that Saint Pius V was wrong. I'm glad we have your position on the matter, even if obtaining it amounted to pulling teeth.
 
What Clement VIII and Urban VIII did is in no way comparable to Traditiones Custodes.
They are all matters of liturgical discipline. So they actually are comparable in that way. Maybe you can find me something other than your private judgment that shows otherwise.
Then it's no longer being held in perpetuity, meaning that Saint Pius V was wrong. I'm glad we have your position on the matter, even if obtaining it amounted to pulling teeth.
No this is the same false dilemma that doesn’t occur when you make some simple distinctions between language, intention and authority.
Here’s a parallel case. You’ll have to identify why a difference between these and TC makes it okay to disobey TC.
In 1568, in his Apostolic Constitution, Quod a Vobis, the Pope established the new Roman Breviary with language fully as strong as the language he used in Quo Primum. In fact, Quod a Vobis contains exactly the same concluding paragraph as Quo Primum, warning anyone against making any change in what he has enacted.

Yet in spite of that, Pope Saint Pius X, in 1911, did not hesitate to revise the Roman Breviary by means of his own Apostolic Constitution, Divino Afflatu-- just as Pope Paul VI would later revise the Roman Missal by means of his Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum.

- The Pope, the Council, and the Mass, p. 58.
I'm sure you wish I were one.
Well maybe stop arguing like one so nobody ends up confused.
 
I just watched the first episode of a series detailing the history of the Catholic Church in my country, and hearing some of the older interviewees, I started to get a sense of the necessity of Vatican II.

Mid-20th century Catholic society was described as revolving around the church 24/7. You went to mass as often as possible, listened to Catholic radio, read the Catholic newspaper, were involved in Catholic social clubs and generally tried to gain as much indulgences as possible by praying the rosary and supporting the church in whatever way you could. Priests had an incredibly high status and their word was seen as law - it was even said that angels kneeled for them. If the priest didn't like the name you picked for your child, you'd better change it, and if it had been a little too long since your last baby, you could be sure the priest would be knocking on your door to ask when the next one's due.

This strong Catholic social life however did not have a lot of room for the catechesis of the laypeople. While latin was widely used, few really understood it well enough to follow what was going on during mass and generally there was not a lot of room for education on the how and why of the church.

Mid-episode, a brilliant Catholic writer made the point that for centuries the church had been like a snowglobe. Within it everything is rock solid and they just had to follow whatever the church laid out for them. However, with the technological innovations and societal changes, cracks started to appear in the globe until in the 60s and 70s it finally burst, leaving everyone inside it exposed to the winds of doubt that had hitherto remained outside.

It's not difficult to see how with media like the newspaper and radio, catholics started to be able to look over the hedge and get exposed to influences that weren't dictated by the church. The 20th century was also the first time where a lot of people got confronted with people, religions and philosophies outside of their country and social milieu. The pill started the sexual revolution and generally the post-war generation was much less willing to submit to authority and craved more democratic principles.

I think the church rightly judged that any sense of 'Catholic bubble' could no longer be maintained and their modus operandi had to change, leading to Vatican II.

We've all heard the horror stories of 'the spirit of Vatican II' and in the documentary it gets pointed out how the following decades let to a coarsening of society, a degradation in taste and morals and a loss of tradition. But it also gets pointed out how Catholic society became less restrictive and oppressive, people stopped being overly fearful and there was an increased notion of looking after your neighbour, be he Catholic or not.

Getting a quick snapshot of pre-VII life, I'm glad I live post-VII. Yes, in a sense our society has broken and we've been weathering a storm for the last half century, but I'm also able to follow along during mass and understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Additionally, due to documents like Lumen Gentium, we have also gained incredibly possibilities and potentialities. I'm able to become catechised to a degree my ancestors could have only dreamt of. My grandfather loved studying the faith in whatever little way he could and I'm sure he would be more than overjoyed by the amount of resources we have now. Instead of simply submitting to our priest and meekly following whatever he says, we are called to - under guidance of the church - do our part to spread and maintain the faith.

Most importantly, I firmly believe that Vatican II directly lead to the resurgence we are now seeing. Laypeople have been called to emancipate themselves, to be educated and to become strong lay apostles. We directly see this in the younger generations, where they are coming or returning to the church and in full understanding submitting to what the church teaches. Where before the majority of people were Catholic because of their social milieu, we are more freely able to 'yes' to God. Despite all the confusion, hurt and chaos following Vatican II, that is an incredible gift.

In summation, I highly encourage everyone to look more into the Catholic Church pre-Vatican II. I think it will make the necessity of the council much more clear.
 
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In which kosher twitter crashes out for Posobiec saying basic Christian belief. After all this stuff coming up with that goofy Peterson post it makes me really embarrassed that Bishop Barron locked his Thomas Aquinas lectures behinds Petersons paywall.
 
In this translation of St. Augustine's Confessions they mention "pouring gasoline on the fire", I just needed to share.
333 - SoyBooru.png
 
Última edición:
It's the Robert Kingswell translation.
If I may direct your attention to another thread. . .
Confessions or The Confessions of St. Augustine

Augustine of Hippo AKA St. Augustine
Published c. 400 AD
Downloaded from the Internet Archive
April 21st, 2024

One of the most influential autobiographies ever written, early Christian writer and theologian Augustine of Hippo tells the story of his sinful youth and conversion to Christianity. A foundational text to Western scholarship, it remains one of the most commonly read and well-regarded spiritual books to this day. Frank Sheed provides one of the best translations of Augustine, both for accuracy and poetic strength. (The first edition here was copyrighted in 1943 and not renewed; the copyright is no longer in effect. The second edition, with introduction by Peter Brown is copyrighted and still in publication)
 
Null, and the Farms, needs our prayers. There are a lot of evil forces 'round about.

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
 
Null, and the Farms, needs our prayers. There are a lot of evil forces 'round about.

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
This. We should start a novena tomorrow.
 
Mary Immaculate, patroness of the United States, St. Michael, and St. Carlo. St. Carlo, intercede for us, St. Michael, subdue this evil, Our Lady, crush their heads under your foot, all through the merits of the Precious Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for our opponents as they were made in the Image of God. May they come to conversion and have their hearts softened.
 
You ever have a priest who actually hate? Like not “oh this guy is a bit of a douche”, but a weak willed worm who likes being wined and dined and will bitch about other priests or people via homily? I have one who I tend to avoid, he’s one of those guys who thinks he’s smarter than he is. Has done shitty “God’s love is like quantum entanglement” homilies. I tend to walk out the door and go to another Mass whenever I spot him.

Regardless, his homily was about the wheat and the weeds. Eventually gets to how two gays were applying to send their kid to Catholic school and another priest quashed it. I know of the actual details, but the priest in his homily goes and says “they were bringing him to Church, they were doing good.” The priest who denied them actually did due diligence, they did not want Catholic values. They wanted the education and had been caught by other people basically saying how long they had to put on a show until they could get in.

It’s not just that, but a lot of other shit. I tend to avoid him because I know other priests hate him and he’s liked by one bishop in the area.
 
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