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BioShock, System Shock and other Immersive Sims and "Shock-likes" - or just the ImSim Thread
This thread is for discussing games within the Immersive Sim and "Shock-like" Genre. Basically any game similar to System Shock or BioShock. While there are threads talking about BioShock and System Shock, I couldn't find one a general discussion thread for either. I figured making a general thread was the proper move given BioShock is pretty much a spiritual successor to System Shock, and most Shock-likes are one-offs not really warranting a separate thread.
Basically, discuss and talk about what you love about the games below:
- BioShock 1, 2, and Infinite
- System Shock 1, 2 and Remake
- Singularity
- Prey 2017
- Doom 3
- Atomic Heart
- Dishonored
- You Are Empty
- Thief already has a thread
- Deus Ex already has a thread
- Any other shock-likes I'm forgetting about or you feel count
Also, please keep A&N politisperging to a minimum. We get it, you hate Ken Levine because he's jewish. I just want to talk about video games.
So, to start off, since there's been some recent developments with BioShock Infinite:
It's pretty well known BioShock Infinite has a bit of a sordid development history (understatement) and some, like myself, have wondered if there was ever anything beyond those E3 demos from 2010/2011 that we could've gotten our hands on. Sadly, no there isn't, those demos were "Smoke and mirrors pre-recorded bullshit" to quote Halo 2's own demo.
That said, there were some prototypes (proto 1, proto 2) uploaded to hidden palace in 2024. the demos are dated Nov 10th, 2012 and Dec 26th 2012, which is around the middle/end of when the game would've been going through its very heavy transitional phase trying to get something ready for release. While there was a lot gained from these that we didn't know, the biggest caveat for these prototypes is that due to missing some kind of dependencies neither can played in any meaningful way.
There has been a new prototype (proto 3) uploaded to hidden palace yesterday, dated a month earlier, Oct 17th, 2012. While it sadly also suffers from same issues the previous demos do, it does have a functional main menu for what its worth. Of course, the real meat and potatoes of this new prototype is what has been mined from the files.
- Booker did not have the AD mark carved into his hand like he does in the finale game. Instead, he wears a little devil ring.
- Elizabeth had a “Shadow Liz” power-resource concept. One tutorial string says Elizabeth could absorb a Shadow Liz when depleted. She couldn't always use this, you had to stock up her power like ammo.
- Liz had a hidden trust engine that penalizes you for engaging in "bad" actions (like drinking alcohol and looting trash cans). Doing this delayed her switching from calling you formally "Mr. DeWitt" to "Booker." The game kept count of theese things and would change Liz's behavior.
- You also had the choice to either save or kill Songbird, which is shown in the achievement IDs: "KillSongbird" and "SaveSongbird".
- Instead of just pulling in cover or allies, Elizabeth originally had a combat command where she could summon a barrage of knives and forks from tears to throw at enemies. (Confirmed via the Tear_Cutlery and LizAttack_Cutlery combat scripts).
- You could tell Liz to steal from NPCs, the prototype featured a cut mechanic called "Grifting," where you could instruct Elizabeth to steal from Columbia's citizens. It was a, and the game would literally show you a UI prompt displaying her chance of success: "Ask Liz to Grift (%d%% CHANCE)". If the conditions were bad, the HUD would display "Grift Too Difficult". there are even movies that were planned: "CompiledLizMovie.bik" and "LockpickMovie.bik". They have no audio stream, so no dialogue transcript, likely visual/tutorial assets.
- The game’s DPV (Designer Player Variable) engine specifically tracked how much brutality Booker committed directly in front of her. The variable KilledNearLizCount_LizDPV monitored enemies Booker killed in close proximity to Elizabeth, which dynamically adjusted her shock and trauma reactions as she witnessed his violence up close. (this gotta be another way how she treated booker, I couldn't find more about that, but the system was planned, this wasn't just so that she reacts to it happening, the game counted it in the beginning.
- All signs point to the game originally having faction systems, neutral NPCs, and actual consequences for player actions. Multiple unused lines reference allies becoming hostile if hurt: "A former ally has been angered because you hurt him!" and "Don't damage your allies!" The files also contain stealth and aggression-related dialogue like "Your firing weapons near people has scared them, and alerted your enemies!", "Consider not shooting first. Not every situation needs to be a fight!", and "Stealing may have consequences..." which strongly suggests NPCs originally reacted dynamically to violence and player behavior instead of instantly becoming enemies. There are even references to non-aggressive enemies carrying valuable loot: "Some non-aggressive enemies carry valuable pieces of gear... To get the equipment, however, these dangerous Citizens have to be killed." This sounds extremely similar to the original BioShock’s Big Daddy system but idk if its planned to be exactly like that.
Doom 3 pains me. They got a whole lot really right with the environment, then fucked it all up by having demons just telespawn into the middle of every room. Most of the game became "walk into room, trigger spawn, hold down S key to back out of room, empty gun into demons standing in the doorway". Some of the developers clearly wanted a horror game from the cutscene bits of people being horribly devoured, but the gameplay didn't support it at all.
If you include games outside the Shock series, you're getting close to just describing the "immersive sim" genre. It kind of feels like you're describing games that go heavy on the immersive systems, as opposed to other sub-genres focused on action (Deus Ex, Metro) or stealth (Thief, Dishonored).
I enjoy all those types of games, just being autistic about categories.
Amazing intro. Genuinely, it may be the most compelling first 20-30 minutes of any video game ever. And then every nanosecond of the rest of the game is an agonizing slog.
Amazing intro. Genuinely, it may be the most compelling first 20-30 minutes of any video game ever. And then every nanosecond of the rest of the game is an agonizing slog.
Amazing intro. Genuinely, it may be the most compelling first 20-30 minutes of any video game ever. And then every nanosecond of the rest of the game is an agonizing slog.
I've tried to play it a couple times now, people all go on about how amazing it is, but I just get bored of it and quit around the top of the station greenhouse thing place. Around the same time you get a quest to kill one of the monsters and its supposed to be a unique one but its just an MMO quest generic monster scaled up. I really had to force myself through Dishonored 2 as well and then gave up with Death of the Outsider. Arkane's games are extremely hit or miss and imo very overrated.
I feel like the issue with the Arkane 'imsims' is that they actively punish you for playing the game in an engaging way. Dishonored 1/2 punishes you for killing but gives you a bunch of fun toys for killing. Prey punishes you for using mimic mods with the station security but those mods are the only ones that do anything interesting. And their level design feels more like just 3 different options put in front of you with some kind of ability restriction that all lead to the same place, rather than actual freedom to approach something.
I grew up playing bioshock 1 over and over on my 360 then much later on my PC. I've probably put in over 50+ playthroughs over the past 20 years.
Putting aside a lot of the subversion covered in American Krogan's "The Ethnic Struggle", the game has alot of design choices that haven't aged well;
-quest arrow at the top pointing you where to go
-important items highlighted in gold
-Vita-chambers (which are on by default) means you can just throw yourself at enemies,
-4-5 enemy types that are recycled all throughout the game. Late game enemies are bullet sponges.
-The camera upgrade system and hacking slows down the gameplay.
I still love the game, but it's clear the artstyle/atmosphere carries it a lot. Bioshock Infinite is just an FPS with a cool artstyle. Bioshock 2 is the best and Ken Levine had nothing to do with it.
Judas's artstyle and npc design looks like shit and It'll probably bomb.
Also: don't forget Quake 4 since you mentioned Doom 3.
The "immersive sim" "genre", just like this thread, is a meaningless genre classification that describes something that had already been described for years up to that point.
In some fields, yeah. Combat for one is improved. Though I think Rapture in BS1 looks a lot better, I prefer the vomit green hue of the ocean over the generic blue in BS2. BS1 had some detailed skyboxes that genuinely made me forget that they weren't physical buildings but part of the background. BS2 is kind of weird with the size scaling, if you look outside, you'll see other crumbling buildings that are close by but look too small. I dunno it hard to describe.
Also, Infinite IMO has the worst combat. I thought they put a lot less emphasis on utilizing vigors unlike plasmids.
I wonder if splicing makes people troon out. That's why vigors are superior, they don't alter your body. Ryan really had a taste in weirdos inviting Steinman and Sander Cohen.
Amazing intro. Genuinely, it may be the most compelling first 20-30 minutes of any video game ever. And then every nanosecond of the rest of the game is an agonizing slog.
R
