Opinion When the Experimenter Fails the Marshmallow Test - How a generation's time preference was sabotaged


The venture capitalist and anticharismatic preacher Kevin O’Leary recently succeeded in reigniting the perennial vitriol of generational hate discourse with his observation that it really bothers him when he sees zoomers who only make $70,000 a year spending $28 on lunch when they could be brown-bagging it and putting the savings into an index fund.

I’m going to have a little rant, here, so I’ll start by emphasizing: Not All Boomers. Look, my mother is a boomer, and I love her dearly, in large part because she represents the opposite of so many boomer stereotypes. Many of you reading this are boomers; I know this because you’re in the comments, writing some of the best comments, you can ask anyone, the very best comments, everyone says it, it’s true. I know full well that much of what follows doesn’t apply to you, because you’re the good ones, the exceptional ones, the few, the proud So, please, do not take any of this personally.

With that said.

The shouting match broke down along the expected lines. Boomers – including spiritual boomers – loudly agreed with O’Leary’s remarks. If you only spend $2 a day on lunch, they insisted, the resulting $26 a day that you save adds up to $9490 a year; after 5 years, you’ve got the down payment for a $250,000 house. Checkmate, you financially illiterate layabouts!

Zoomers, millennials, and Gen-X replied that $250,000 will get you a leaky shack in rural Arkansas with black mold in the unfinished basement; that by the time you save up the money for the down-payment, that shack will be going for $500,000; that recent immigrants receive government assistance to get onto the property ladder (along with preferential employment) and so do not have to spend years of their lives saving up at all. Disaffected youth (and these days, that is just ‘the youth’) generally heaped scorn on the idea that it’s even possible to save in this economy, or that there’s anything worth saving. “If you live on instant noodles and margarine sandwiches for twenty years, you too, my son, can one day afford a van down by the river.”

I can see both sides of this. I tend to live frugally myself, not so much because I consider it virtuous but out of simple necessity. Throughout my 20s and 30s I was a career student living paycheck-to-paycheck, as a result of which I became very accustomed to cooking my meals and buying only what’s necessary. I’ve never once used DoorDash or Uber Eats. I buy my clothing at thrift stores, only purchase a new laptop once every decade or so, and have somehow managed to avoid racking up much in the way of debt ... and by ‘somehow’ I mean that I’ve never owned a house or a car, partly because I changed continents too regularly to make such big-ticket purchases practical or necessary, but mostly because I couldn’t afford them. Even finishing my doctorate did not really bring anything you could call prosperity in its wake: my first position was for the princely some of just over USD30,000 per year. By the time I reached the median national income in my late 30s, I’d gotten so accustomed to frugal living that money started piling up in my account just because I had no idea what to do with it, and little inclination to spend it because I was honestly just happy to not have to worry about budgeting to make rent. That turned out to be very helpful when DEI came for my career track; I lived on those savings for a couple of years after.

So, yes, it is obviously possible to save some money up by living under one’s means.

Assuming that one is actually making money that is.

Which zoomers mostly aren’t.

Zoomers fly into a rage when they’re told to tighten their belts so that they can save for the future., because zoomers do not think that they have a future.

They are not wrong to think this way.

Planning for the future relies on the ability to defer gratification, to prioritize the greater potential reward over the smaller present reward. To a very large degree this is the basis of civilization, which as the old saying goes thrives when old men plants trees whose shade they will never enjoy. Old men do not plant metaphorical trees anymore; they cut them down for quick cash to pay for casino cruises. The baby boom generation took out tens of trillions of dollars in debt in their descendants’ names to pay for social welfare programs that only baby boomers will enjoy.

Boomers will often point out that the younger generations today are lazy spendthrifts, and there is actually a lot of truth to that. Zoomers think nothing of calling in sick to work for the third time in one week so they can bedrot in front of Netflix with their pad thai takeout and mango-cherry vape juice. This moral failing, boomers despair, is why their grandchildren are destined for downward mobility, and why they don’t dare hand over the reins of society to them.

There was a famous Stanford experiment called the Marshmallow Test which measured time preference in young children. A child would be left in a room with a single marshmallow on the table. They were of course free to eat the marshmallow, the experimenter would tell them, but if they didn’t, then later on they would get a second marshmallow. Children with high time preference – meaning that they strongly prefer the immediate reward to the hypothetical future reward – would cram the marshmallow into their candy-holes without a second thought. Children with low time preference – meaning that they value the future at a similar or even higher level to the present – would patiently wait, and be rewarded with a second marshmallow. These children were then followed, and it was demonstrated that the children with low time preference demonstrated better life outcomes: they maintained higher grades, were less likely to fall into debt, were less likely to develop drug addictions, were less likely to get pregnant before marriage, were less likely to get fat, and so on. All of which makes sense. The capacity to endure present pain – by studying, dieting, working out, what have you – in order to obtain a better future outcome is obviously going to be linked to better outcomes.

How would a smart kid react if the experimenter failed the marshmallow test?

For instance, say the experimenter simply lied. There was no second marshmallow; the child waited for nothing. Or, even worse, the first marshmallow was snatched away, and replaced with two marshmallows, each one half the size of the original? Or a third the size? Here are your two marshmallows, sucker, joke’s on you. What would the results be if, after this experience, the children were tested a second time? I don’t know if such an experiment has ever been conducted, but the outcome is not hard to guess. Every single one of the children, whether they’d passed the marshmallow test the first time or not, would scarf down the marshmallow the moment it was in front of them.

The capacity for low time preference may be largely innate, but whether it expresses or not is entirely a function of social trust. In order to defer gratification for a greater future reward, one must believe that there is a reasonably high chance of that reward manifesting. The less likely the future reward becomes, the more steeply a rational actor will discount the future.

I don’t want to minimize the hardships that boomers endured when they were young. Boomers worked hard, and they didn’t enjoy the same conveniences that we enjoy now. They fought in the Vietnam War (well, about 3% of them), they spent most of their lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles, they suffered through the oil shock and stagflation in the 70s, they were punished by double-digit interest rates in the early 80s, and they spent their working lives trying desperately to stay one step ahead of the skyrocketing inflation that was unleashed when Bretton-Woods fell apart and the last vestigial support of the gold standard was kicked out from under the brrrring money printer.

But, despite all of that drama, the one thing boomers could generally rely upon was that – so long as thermonuclear annihilation was averted – things would generally get better. Technology would advance. Working conditions would get safer. The special effects in movies would become more convincing. Houses would get larger. Cars would get nicer. Air conditioning would get quieter. The environment would get cleaner. Society would become more just. The world would become freer and safer for democracy. And so on and so forth. Baby boomers have enjoyed a charmed life such as no other generation has known: free of major wars, full of technical wonders, in which whatever difficulties you might endure now, you could generally count on the future being a better place. For the boomer, deferred gratification always had a payoff.

For the zoomer – and the millennial, and generation X – this has simply not been the case. After 9/11 a police state panopticon settled over society. The 2008 real estate crash pulled the rug out from under the millennials, after which real-estate got ZIRPed to the Moon. Mass immigration pumped real estate demand further, while undercutting wages and rendering public spaces steadily more alienating, unpleasant, and dangerous. Black Lives Matter immolated quaint notions of racial harmony. DEI threw young white men, their careers, their futures, and their unborn children to the wolves. COVID stole two years from young people’s lives so that old people could feel safe from the coof. Now, AI^2 (Artificial Intelligence + Actual Indians) means that the only thing the young expect in their future is gig work in the sex trade industry (until robots take that, too).

If you’re a young person, the only thing you’ve ever known is decline. You’ve seen society get digested by the attention economy, human interactions digitized into shares, views, and likes. You’ve seen the war of Discourse poison relations between the sexes to a degree never known before in history. You’ve seen dating apps replace romance with swipes and monogamy with Tindergamy. You’ve seen third spaces disappear. You’ve seen culture stagnate. You’ve seen music, movies, television shows, video games, and books be converted into hamfisted, poorly written, badly composed, terribly edited agitslop. You’ve seen the Internet get enshittified by adware, malware, spyware, engagement bait, and the subscription-model SaaS scam economy. You’ve seen food get more expensive, even as the quality of the ingredients declines, and the portion sizes decrease. You’ve seen a third of your income get stolen by inflation in a few year’s time. You’ve seen the basic elements of a human life – a house, a spouse, children – recede before you like a mirage in the desert.

I’d like to believe that this is all temporary, that things can be turned around, but if you tell me this hope is nothing more than cope it is very difficult for me to argue otherwise. Maybe things will finally improve and maybe they won’t; the point is that, for the young who have only ever known civilizational rot, it is entirely rational for them to lay down and let it rot.

Generation X and the millennials both tried to do everything right, according to what the boomers told them was the path forward: save money, study hard, get a ‘job’. At every stage we got rugpulled. Most of us have nothing to show for any of that.

Zoomers looked at what happened to Gen-X and the millennials and said, quite rationally, fuck that.

That is why zoomers don’t care about ‘jobs’ or ‘careers’ or ‘education’ or ‘savings’. They know there’s no such thing as institutional loyalty, that they’ll be cut loose the moment their job can be automated or outsourced to cheap Indian labour, and so why would they be loyal to their employers? Why would they do any more than the absolute bare minimum to avoid getting fired? Especially under the identitarian spoils system of DEI that makes a point of rewarding someone else for your hard work.

Zoomers have no faith that the future will be better and every reason to believe that it will be much worse, and so they have every reason to prize the small, present pleasure over some future prize that experience has taught them lives only in their broken dreams. What’s the point in saving for a house if you’ll never even be able to afford a hovel in an abandoned toxic-waste dump small town where the major local industries revolve around the fentanyl trade? You might as well just splurge on that $28 lunch, which you can enjoy now, and which you won’t be able to enjoy in a few years, when you’re making the same amount of money, but that lunch costs $48, is prepared with worse ingredients, is provided in smaller portions, and is served in grottier surroundings by less attractive waitresses who now expect a 40% tip.

To be clear, I’m not saying this is a good thing. This generational demoralization is a great tragedy. Zoomers have been spiritually sabotaged, and many of them will never recover. Once social trust is broken it is incredibly hard to rebuild.

This is not entirely the boomers’ fault. They’ve been the primary beneficiaries of the vampire economy, and they are by far its strongest defenders, but they weren’t the ones who set the system up. That would be the ‘greatest generation’, who were the ones that built out the welfare state, passed the Civil Rights Act, dismantled long-standing protections against third-world immigration, and first started letting the money printer rip. Boomers have profited from a kind of generational Cantillon effect: they were born close to the time when inflation first began in earnest, meaning that the money they were lavished with would always be worth more than whatever spare change their children could scrape together.

Blame is beside the point. On its own it isn’t going to solve anything. The only way to fix this is for things to start improving for young people again, and not in the sense of getting cheaper smartphones or whatever. We are talking about very basic, mammalian necessities: food, shelter, mating. It doesn’t matter if technological trinkets are slightly more affordable than they were last year when the foundational elements of Maslow’s Hierarchy are either chewing giant holes through shrinking budgets or simply priced out of any practical reach. Sneers about $28 lunches come off as particularly tone-deaf when groceries have exploded in price to such a degree that it’s barely cheaper to eat in than it is to eat out1. Not to mention that restaurants everywhere are struggling because people don’t have the money to eat out.

I don’t know how to solve this. Unless there’s a world-historical economic boom thanks to AI – which there’s no sign of yet, and furthermore it would need to be one whose benefits are not concentrated in the hands of a small number of oligarchs – there’s probably no way to solve it without pain. The only question is how that pain will be distributed. Experience suggests that boomers are unlikely to volunteer to take the hit. If we were sane we’d dismantle the social security system immediately, and start putting in place systems to transfer opportunity, wealth, and power to native-born child-bearing demographics immediately. This is improbable. The most likely outcome is that, over the next decade or two, the boomers will spend down the last of the West’s national wealth on heroic end-of-life health care, and leave behind a broken mess of insolvency, shattered institutions, lost cultural knowledge, and tribal warfare. None of which will be a problem for the boomers. Après moi, le déluge. It will be up to everyone else to piece together something resembling a functioning society amidst the ashes and ruins. By that point, millennials will be in their 50s and 60s; most of their lives will be behind them. Zoomers will be hitting middle age. Perhaps you can see why everyone under 50 is so dejected, and prefers treating themselves with the small pleasures they can still afford rather than dwelling upon the long decline that awaits?

Or, instead of berating the youth for their moral failings while society crumbles, you might try throwing them that marshmallow and seeing what happens.
 
Última edición por un moderador:
lol at anyone who thinks the US government will ever let things like social security go bankrupt. Those people vote, and vote consistently and more than other demographic groups in this country do. The United States Government will fire up the money printers into turbo mode looooooonnnnnnnggggggggg before they ever even think of allowing SS to become insolvent.
Does anyone have that clip of George W Bush, right after Obama took over, being asked by a reporter if he had any regrets and his reply is "we got everything done that we wanted to do except social security"?

What they will do is find ways to slowly privatize SS, likely through carrot and stick means. You'll see stories about SS recipients who went all in on the private options, made a bunch of bank, and now live on cruise ships (retiree monaco). Once most of the cattle has moved onto the private market, then there will be a little oopsies, the market will shit itself for 2 quarters, and most americans will be left without a retirement nest egg. MAID will be government subsidized tough.
 
What the fuck is it with boomers and food comparisons? Avocado toast, Starbucks coffee, "$28 lunch." They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. A one bedroom apartment in a city will cost you like $3000 a month it's not the fucking toast
They consider it a shallow waste and they think young people spend too much of their money on it enough to buy a house. They are right that it is a shallow waste of money and that they'd save a lot if they just eat home made meals, but ain't gonna be enough for a house either. OTOH, zoomers and millennials also seem to have given up and say "as I can't buy a house, what's the purpose to save money" and they overindulge.
 
I then asked him how much he thought a studio apartment cost and he threw out a price that I can only kindly say was the price of a studio in the 1970's.
Studios are for spoiled kids who want to larp as poor though.

Actual frugal living entails getting a place with at least two bedrooms and finding roommates.

Doesn't really change your point, of course.
 
A big problem with cutting small luxuries is that those savings inevitably get obliterated by life happening. You get in an accident- there's a 5k medical bill. Your cars transmission goes out- there goes a few thousand. On anything 75k or under per year saving for a house is next to impossible because life happens like every other year. People need to be able to save enough for a downpayment and life's calamities. That's not even factoring in student loans and retirement. It's pretty much impossible even eating ramen every night, so you might as well get the fucking wing stop.
 
Going by this, I'm assuming that Congress is also acting as if the oil the petrodollar's worth is based on is infinite, instead of eventually being finite and becoming more and more harder to extract.

What will happen should oil no longer be as easily available?
Yes the numbers are so large that our congressmen (never the smartest people) treat it like it's infinite.

We wont experience a decline in oil for at least another 100 years if not more, but when that day comes, the currency tied to it will experience inflation.

Edit: the inflation will be extreme and will cause the collapse of the world economy.
 
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This is why "not smart" kids "fail" the test in the first place, they already got enough shit from life and they don't trust the experimenter.
I hate to take this side on the marshmallow test, but it's true. I'm not completely retarded but I grew up poor and the number one lesson life has taught me is that the next marshmallow isn't coming and you better enjoy it while it lasts and I shouldn't have wasted my time trying to go to marshmallow school, but instead joined a marshmallow heist mafia because nobody is gonna give me another fucking marshmallow unless it's to prove a point like im a lab rat.
 
I think deep down he really does, but it involves acknowledging some truths too uncomfortable for the normie audience he's writing for.
I think there's a huge gap between knowing what you must do, and being able to go through with it.

I've experienced this myself. Intellectually I know there are things I must do to preserve my tribal group. But in the moment, when the knife is in your hand? When it's all real? Real living people, with hopes, family and dreams? Can you do something like that? I think about that a lot, and I'm not sure I can. For all my bluster, and for all I know I must do, I don't know if I'm strong enough to do it.
oh yeah a whole nother article presenting a generational conflict between people in their 70s and people in their 20s like the rest of us don't exist is super, super helpful
As a late millenial(33 in July) it feels really great to be completely ignored in these talks.

When they talk about 'millenials are established' they're talking about late 30's and 40's people. I feel closer to zoomers than I do them.
 
Última edición:
All this digital ink spilled because people made the mistake of responding to Kevin "Boating Accident" O'Leary.


I believe that boomers don't eat out as much so they still think you can walk into a diner and get a sandwich, coffee and apple pie for five dollars. They are more upset about the price of groceries which they put down to 'inflation'.

We should really just get rid of all government funding for old people healthcare. Perhaps if they didn't spend so much on classic cars and RV parks in Florida, they would be able to afford a doctor! :smug:
Or Lotto Scratch tickets, don't for get old people and their love for scratchems.
 
A big problem with cutting small luxuries is that those savings inevitably get obliterated by life happening. You get in an accident- there's a 5k medical bill. Your cars transmission goes out- there goes a few thousand. On anything 75k or under per year saving for a house is next to impossible because life happens like every other year. People need to be able to save enough for a downpayment and life's calamities. That's not even factoring in student loans and retirement. It's pretty much impossible even eating ramen every night, so you might as well get the fucking wing stop.
What this guy said. There are too many sources of sudden and unavoidable expenses for the whole "herp derp, stop eating teh avocado toast!1!!11!" advice to actually be helpful at all. The actual problem is that we need decent paying work, with reasonable working hours, for persons of all skill and education levels and until we have that the current problems will continue.
 
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