Kiwis in White-Collar MGMT - Upgraded from “wage cage” to “salary galley”

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hog cranking frog dijo:
I'd bet my retirement the people making these decisions have corporate real estate making up a chunk of their portfolios.
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And are under no obligation to be in a specific physical location on a daily basis themselves! I myself find the easiest rules to follow are the ones which don’t apply to me
 
Pargon dijo:
And it’s such a benefit that we could lose these four, since their positions were grandfathered into remote, create new positions with remote work listed as an actual perk, drop the yearly by 8-10% and still attract reliable people. As if every keyboard warrior isn’t looking to drive less with all the fuckery going on. It’s so fucking myopic; it’s like being shortsighted and short-term-focused is necessary to be a corporate decision maker. It’s just such a joke to sacrifice that much for corporate culture, which sucks both on an individual and a conceptual level.
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Before the pandemic, a white-collar manager told me that it cost five figures to replace programmers, once you figured in the job search costs and company-specific training to bring them up to speed. If only we could figure out how much it'll cost the company for your CEO to be able to see warm bodies at those desks.
 
Pargon dijo:
Kiwis who help run shit, how do you cope?
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I always have a stack of resumes of highly qualified people (I work in a specialized field). I have learned the hard way that almost everyone is replaceable, and the four you described are absolutely replaceable. I have had people quit and my boss didn't kill me and the world didn't end. Anyone who even suggests looking for another job outside the company needs to have their bluff called.
 
Otterly dijo:
I mainly wfh now and if they made me go back to an office I’d quit.
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Exactly. I have the job I have because it let's be work fully remote, and if they no longer allowed me to work remotely, I'd go get another job that let's me work fully remote.
Me being fully remote isn't some lucky perk I ought to be grateful for, it's a benefit of the field/job that I work in and if I wanted to go get another remote position, I could.
I'm not going to stay somewhere that punishes me and takes away a benefit that I specifically joined for just because some new asshole comes in and decides that they want to change things.

Also the arguments about not wanting to go into an office somehow being due to laziness are retarded.
Why would I want to go in 1 day a week if I don't have to go in the other 4 days and prior to the change didn't have to go in at all?
If my work is being completed without issue while being fully remote why should I be ok with having to inconvenience myself whatsoever over some upper management assholes irrelevant opinion?

"Bank tellers and construction workers have to go to their work place every day and don't get to complain about it, so you shouldn't have any issues going in a couple days a week"
Alright I didn't go to college to do a job that requires I be in some office somewhere. I got into what I do specifically because of the remote aspect, and this was prior to covid so the idea that I'm somehow entitled to changes during covid is irrelevant as well.
 
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Irregardless dijo:
Also the argument about not wanting to go into an office somehow being due to laziness are retarded.
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If they want me to be online at 6am to talk to Japan and 9pm to talk to Californians, I am working from home and that’s that. It’s in my contract that I can and it’s a massive perk. They also pay me an allowance per month for wear and tear and internet. Never ever going to go back to an office if I can help it, not in this job anyway.
If anyone wants to hire me to create a full portfolio of dodgy biological weaponry I’ll return to in person, otherwise no
 
Irregardless dijo:
Alright I didn't go to college to do a job that requires I be in some office somewhere. I got into what I do specifically because of the remote aspect, and this was prior to covid so the idea that I'm somehow entitled to changes during covid is irrelevant as well.
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That’s another layer to it. There’s absolutely no reason why anyone on my team, myself included, need to be in an office for any reason other than some kind of staff meeting or in-person training. It is, even from the lips of leadership, purely for optics. Whether that’s “well that’s the standard for the industry” or “the board will castrate us if we can’t justify every side of this building-shaped boondoggle”, it doesn’t matter: it’s powerful people making their problems the problems of their lessers.

Plús ça change…
 
Pargon dijo:
That’s another layer to it. There’s absolutely no reason why anyone on my team, myself included, need to be in an office for any reason other than some kind of staff meeting or in-person training. It is, even from the lips of leadership, purely for optics. Whether that’s “well that’s the standard for the industry” or “the board will castrate us if we can’t justify every side of this building-shaped boondoggle”, it doesn’t matter: it’s powerful people making their problems the problems of their lessers.

Plús ça change…
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That also gets into the most offensive part of it, the idea that RTO would be as simple as returning to the office, as if there wouldn't be any additional costs or inconveniences.
The bare minimum is usually a $10k increase in expenses whether it be gas, vehicle wear/tare, food, and time loss doing anything else.
But it's totally cool to pass those costs on to the employee because they were lucky to be saving them in the first place I guess?
 
Irregardless dijo:
That also gets into the most offensive part of it, the idea that RTO would be as simple as returning to the office, as if there wouldn't be any additional costs or inconveniences.
The bare minimum is usually a $10k increase in expenses whether it be gas, vehicle wear/tare, food, and time loss doing anything else.
But it's totally cool to pass those costs on to the employee because they were lucky to be saving them in the first place I guess?
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And then they’ll dangle a COL increase in front of their workers for five years then give half of what would’ve been useful when they needed it to begin with and is now enough for the gum you buy in the midst of your 2-hour commute. And they’ll announce that with fanfare, like they just tongued your arsehole and gave you the reacharound on the house.

I fucking hate the Corporate West. Hurry up, Mideast savages, just butcher the lot of us, we deserve it
 
Pargon dijo:
#1 is black
#2 is “neurodivergent”
#3 is an upper management’s spouse
#4 is muslim
All are women

I don’t stand a chance, homie
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If we were still a sensible society you could just tell the Shaniqua, the turbosperg, the nepo baby, and the bomb chucker to clear out their desks and get the fuck out and hire some hard working men to replace them.

Just make sure you don’t replace them with four people who eat curry and use stupid terms like “do the needful” unless you want to izzat-check your subordinates on a daily basis.

Having said that, not having to leave your house to work is a nice perk but is it really worth quitting and finding a new job if you can’t?
 
CrackPipeCowboy dijo:
On a serious note, is this really a big contentious thing in white collar? I'd love to work from home as much as anyone else, but is two days really that big of a deal?
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It's a really serious issue when dealing with women and browns. Just stack white and asian men and join the winning team for white collar work. You'll be amazed with the speed at which all interpersonal drama vanishes, productivity explodes, and office politics gravitates around which brand of coffee the office should be buying (the asians will insist that Kirkland is best, but that's just because they buy everything from costco already).
 
Audit dijo:
It's a really serious issue when dealing with women and browns.
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Tell me about it. Been at my current job since October, but I'm about to get fired but it's not like I'll miss it. My manager is an Indian woman and the only other people on my team are another Indian woman and a blerd. I never got any training, onboarding, or help with learning anything, so my manager shames me for not knowing anything. On top of that, she uses it as an excuse to not assign me anything and then shames me for not doing anything.

This is my second job out of college (had to leave my first because my position got relocated and then offshored) and I'm considering just saying fuck it and becoming a NEET. I'm never going to find a good, stable job, I'm never going to be able to buy a home, and I'm never going to be able to retire, so why bother? I've talked to others about all this and they've recommended I pivot into doing data analytics jobs for hospitals and university research, and I've been applying to those, but given the state of the economy and job market (thanks jews and jeets), I don't expect to land anything anytime soon.
 
Audit dijo:
I'm confused. Are you looking for a phd position? That's where any of that shit that doesn't get offshored is going. US science corporations are shifting toward phd labor like there's no tomorrow.
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No, I don't have my master's yet so the only thing available to me are post-bacc stuff. I'd like for a company to foot some of the bill should I pursue a master's. There are more opportunities in hospital data analytics for people with bachelor's degrees though. Of course I'm looking into other fields, I'm not limiting myself to just these two things, but they're something I looked into. Regardless I don't think I want to work in banking and finance ever again.
 
Pargon dijo:
And then they’ll dangle a COL increase in front of their workers for five years then give half of what would’ve been useful when they needed it to begin with and is now enough for the gum you buy in the midst of your 2-hour commute. And they’ll announce that with fanfare, like they just tongued your arsehole and gave you the reacharound on the house.
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How much are these people making? If its Sub $60k, I just don't see any reason for RTO. The lower the pay, the less I give a shit about people being busy - I just care that they are doing what is asked of them, even if it takes 25 hours a week when they get paid for 40. I'll pay extra to ensure that I have them at 40 hours when SHTF.

I had 2 higher level devs under me that I had to constantly chase to do their work and would make every excuse in the book on why they were delayed. It really seemed like they weren't working when they were at home while making just under 100K per year. Fuck them - get into the office.

Back to your original question... 100% WFH jobs are drying up. I'd call their bluff and replace the 1-2 that actually leave. Lots of people out there would jump on an opportunity to only come into the office 2 days per week.

As a whole, I am torn on the RTO move in corporate America - I switched teams around the time our company moved from 2 days in office to 4. My new team and manager are fantastic and I think that I actually benefit from being in the office more. But I think the ideal number is 3 in-office and 2 WFH. I understand that this isn't the case for all teams or all people. I am of the opinion that RTO sucks less if you want to continue to advance in your career and are looking for mentoring. If you are content where you are at and have no aspirations to advance, then RTO is going to be a pain in the ass. I guess this is trying to back my overall point of "The lower the pay, the more people probably care about coming back into the office".
 
Johnny Dang dijo:
As a whole, I am torn on the RTO move in corporate America
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RTO prevents off-shoring. At this point, assume any job that can be off-shored will be off-shored because US labor is anywhere from 3x to 10x as expensive as comparable labor abroad. Eastern European software devs aren't retarded, and they'll work for $60k/year without complaint in Romania. You'd see mass layoffs of white collar women's work if they didn't get dinged for falling below a certain % of women employed.
 
Pargon dijo:
Can’t I just go back to data entry
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I'll never understand getting a technical degree in a technical field and working a technical job in hopes of climbing the corporate ladder and having to deal with interpersonal problems and bureaucracy every day for the rest of your life.

But for some reason that's the dream for millions and millions of people.
 
Pargon dijo:
No, quite the contrary. We have a brand new production/repair/administrative building. Low 9-figures. All the remote people are getting called back in because, and I swear this was the reason given on the call by upper management, the new CEO visited and thought there were too many empty desks.

This is a person who makes more in a year than I will for the remainder of my life if I stay with this company
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I have participated in closed door discussions that the true purpose of requiring working from the office is that its an easy way to cut low performers (who will just quit) and provides more opportunity to build evidence against people you need to fire to counter lawsuits.

For example.. we all know how the Shanequas of the world do with turning up on time. If you fire her just for performance expect a discrimination lawsuit. So you make her show up in the office for a stupid reason. If she doesnt quit outright in a tantrum then documenting the 24 days in a row she was late covers corporates ass. And if it's not for being late its for "not having professional dress" or "consistently having a bad attitude" etc etc.

So maybe your new CEO is a retard.. or maybe he just wants to cut staff costs and weed out the women, retards, and POCs and making it seem like a stupid reason just inflames them even more.
Rarely see an old white guy complain about being in office.
 
lol, welcome to management. You’ll find that white collar management is about compliance first and foremost. The CXOs at your company believe they are geniuses and you all are the idiots. So if they push RTO and you refuse, they will find someone who will enforce RTO. If your team threatens to quit, they couldn’t care less. They don’t see that as their problem, they see it as your problem.

Thats the thing with management these days: executives don’t give a shit about your thoughts and ideas, they just want to know if you can carry out their orders. The whole “getting paid to think and lead” is a meme. If you have a good idea, they will either squash it if they feel it threatens them or take credit for it if they think it really is a good idea.

My shitpost is pretty snarky but in the end, it really does come down to them wanting middle management to enforce their directives. They will talk a good game about not wanting yes men but they will get a red ass if you take that seriously. It’s why they like jeets increasingly for leadership roles: they will do the needful.
 
If I'm not desperate to need a job ATM, is it worth holding out for something that'll offer/guarantee hybrid work?

It's somewhat common in my field and area, but a lot of entry-level positions tend to be 5 days in person. I've gotten advice ranging from
  1. boomers on Reddit telling me I should be grateful I'm not working 80 like they did
  2. people my age saying I should take it and hold out for better conditions later
  3. people my age saying to decline and wait for something more ideal
 
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