Yu-Gi-Oh! / Duel Monsters - RIP Dueling Network and YGOPro

[•~•]

I don't see how kids are supposed to figure this out the way they would MTG.

I can't speak for actual TCG stuff, but games like Duel links and Master duel are extremely retard proof, to the point i got to legend 5 in duel links before i realized you can't use mystic typhoon on an activated polymerization. There's so many YouTubers and websites that can hand hold you with picking a beginner deck and show you how to play it to a competent level.

Fighting games have the same issue where it just seems intimidating, but taking 1 day to just learn a character will set you for life. Sadly People just don't want homework in their videogames.

 

[Spooky Dogwood]

Archetypes are rarely as xenophobic as you make them out to be.

Yeah I've never really agreed with this sentiment. The problem isn't that there's a lack of generically good cards, there are tons, but they're just less optimal to play than in-archetype cards most of the time.

This card for example, I'm always thinking "I should try this in Maliss or thunder dragon, or something", but then there's just nothing I want to cut for it.

 

[Incecticyder]

Yeah I've never really agreed with this sentiment. The problem isn't that there's a lack of generically good cards, there are tons, but they're just less optimal to play than in-archetype cards most of the time.
Ver archivo adjunto 8652218
This card for example, I'm always thinking "I should try this in Maliss or thunder dragon, or something", but then there's just nothing I want to cut for it.

What I mean is that many decks can splash non-Archetype cards. Both generic and semi-generic options. Ash Blossom and Raigeki for instance. Lady Debug for a semi-generic option for Cyberse and ROTA for Warrior decks. And let's not forget all the Links and the engines you can use in a lot of decks.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

That issue you mentioned is only if you try to get into the game by buying BOOSTER packs

Okay, but if I'm a parent and my kid wants to get into Yu-Gi-Oh, how am I supposed to know this? I'm not going to be really happy pulling a blister pack, figuring out the rules, and realizing A. This game is probably too complicated and B. Half of these cards are unplayable and I just wasted my money. Do you think I'm going to go out and buy more Yu-Gi-Oh cards? Fuck no, I'm just gonna steer him towards Pokemon or MTG which is easier to understand.

Fighting games have the same issue where it just seems intimidating, but taking 1 day to just learn a character will set you for life. Sadly People just don't want homework in their videogames.

You're right. People don't want to do homework when they're dipping their feet in and learning a new game. They want to be able to pick up, play with their friends, and maybe they'll really like it and get into it hardcore. Then they'll do the homework.

I'll argue a TCG is worse because I can learn one character and be somewhat good to go. A TCG is FAR more complicated.

When we taught my friend MTG as kids, my one friend had a Myr deck that either milled you for infinite or burned you for infinite in a handful of turns. He used this to try and teach my friend. I told him, that's not how you get someone to learn the game. Crushing your opponent with huge combos they don't understand in a handful of turns before they can even figure out what happened does not make me want to play the game any further. It just makes me less interested in the game, and makes you look like a jerk. That's why Yu-Gi-Oh has such a bad stigma. It's completely unapproachable for new players and the people who really, really enjoy it, love it for gameplay that's not conducive to letting new players have a chance to learn it.

Thats the biggest crux. It's unapproachable, and the players who do enjoy it, actually like it for exactly those reasons that make it unapproachable.

 

[•~•]

how am I supposed to know this?

I can see your point there, Yugioh really doesn't make it easy for people get the needed resources.

 

[Right To Bear Blarms]

Consistency actively works AGAINST player agency. I love Boomer Yugioh because I like player agency and choices. I HATE consistency. Consistency takes all the fun out of the game for me.

Consistency means getting to your decision points more often. I'm also not a fan of super consistent combo slop decks like Spyral or Pendulum where you just have to sit there watching some sperg play every card in their deck.
The JUSH decks are all consistent but each of them offers meaningful choices at almost every step of their plays. Does it make sense to go for Ripper off of Hollie Sue or should I try to gather my VS names to get the full Snow Devil effect?

I like Edison but you're coping if you try to say that getting your ass blown out by Heavy Storm is peak gameplay. Consistency eliminates a lot of the "just draw the out" scenarios you end up in when staring down a BLS/DAD/Goyo Guardian. LOB format is so epic where both players just sit behind a Giant Soldier of Stone until one of them draws Summoned Skull. Every format has their own shitty qualities but how you play around Nibiru and how many cards you let your opponent to draw off of Maxx C/Fuwalos are choices that the player is making, not drawing Sakuretsu Armor is not a choice.

I would attribute the waning of YGO's popularity to there being no even halfway decent on-ramp for new or returning players. Until MD all the simulators sucked balls, cards are expensive while also not retaining value, the cards are tiny and overflowing with text, no party game aspect at all through something like drafting. The eternal format also presents its own problems. If a new player starts off with the latest deck and learns the top 5 most common matchups they're still going to be absolutely boggled by some tranny playing Plant Link. The gameplay itself is the only thing that's good, everything on the periphery is just godawful.

 

[Spooky Dogwood]

not drawing Sakuretsu Armor is not a choice.

Deciding which backrow to set or hold, or deciding to bluff by setting a normal spell are choices though. I know what you are saying, but I feel like in modern you're a lot more likely to end up in situations where it's do or die and you cannot possibly afford to play around something.

 

[Incecticyder]

If you don't believe me, I went to a few trading card conventions recently and there was almost NO Yu-Gi-Oh. The only Yu-Gi-Oh cards I found at one of the conventions were in tossed in a cardboard box on like one table out of hundreds. Forget protectors, they were just raw dog tossed in a fucking box for 5 for $1. Things like Trishula, and older staples. That's how worthless the cards are to store owners and vendors nowadays. They are dumping them.

First things first, Trishula has been reprinted due to two support wave including a Structure Deck. It does not cost that much anymore. Didn't you think they were getting rid off cards that are really old and not that powerful anymore?

Secondly, the abundance of MtG products might have had to do with the overprinting scandal that WotC is getting sued over. Retailers are seriously hurting and pushing out products they cannot sell.

Okay, but if I'm a parent and my kid wants to get into Yu-Gi-Oh, how am I supposed to know this? I'm not going to be really happy pulling a blister pack, figuring out the rules, and realizing A. This game is probably too complicated and B. Half of these cards are unplayable and I just wasted my money. Do you think I'm going to go out and buy more Yu-Gi-Oh cards? Fuck no, I'm just gonna steer him towards Pokemon or MTG which is easier to understand.

The rules are not that complicated. It seems intimidating at first but gets easier as you go.

Also, you can just buy a Structure Deck and see what cards are needed to complete it further through the internet. It has gotten far easier. The modern Structure Decks are far better than the old ones. Not to mention Project Ignis is free. If you are determined to do ZERO research, then maybe this medium is not for you.

You're right. People don't want to do homework when they're dipping their feet in and learning a new game. They want to be able to pick up, play with their friends, and maybe they'll really like it and get into it hardcore. Then they'll do the homework.

Every TCG has "homework". Keywords, interactions, mechanics etc.

When we taught my friend MTG as kids, my one friend had a Myr deck that either milled you for infinite or burned you for infinite in a handful of turns. He used this to try and teach my friend. I told him, that's not how you get someone to learn the game. Crushing your opponent with huge combos they don't understand in a handful of turns before they can even figure out what happened does not make me want to play the game any further. It just makes me less interested in the game, and makes you look like a jerk. That's why Yu-Gi-Oh has such a bad stigma. It's completely unapproachable for new players and the people who really, really enjoy it, love it for gameplay that's not conducive to letting new players have a chance to learn it.

It is not that hard. There are such decks but there are ones that are easier to get into as well. People just do not talk about them because it does not make for clickbait. Even Elcee, who just started playing, said it was not as hard as he was told it would be.

The gameplay itself is the only thing that's good, everything on the periphery is just godawful.

Yeah, no. The reprints, the much better Structure Decks, the support and the fact that the game is rather cheap are pretty neat too.

 

[Leaf Wage Slave Jr]

Yeah, no. The reprints, the much better Structure Decks, the support and the fact that the game is rather cheap are pretty neat too.

For all that I shit on Yugioh - most of it coming from a place of love/nostalgia -, I do appreciate Konami's reprint policy makes it fairly unappealing for scalpers.

Yeah Meta cards are going to be expensive as shit, but eventually they'll still be reprinted.

 

[Incecticyder]

Yeah Meta cards are going to be expensive as shit, but eventually they'll still be reprinted.

If one does not want to pay a fortune for meta cards, they can pay significantly less so for anti-meta cards and swoop everyone. Again, I remind everyone of the guy that won with Fire Kings and the guy who won with Millennium.

 

[Right To Bear Blarms]

Yeah, no. The reprints, the much better Structure Decks, the support and the fact that the game is rather cheap are pretty neat too.

For every Fire King structure deck you have shit like S Little Knight only being available at Secret Rare for over a year. The TCG rarity distribution creates plenty of P2W formats like Snake-Eye where Bonfire, Poplar, WANTED, Promethean Princess, Flamberge, Snake-Eyes Diabellstar, Original Sinful Spoils, and Diabellstar were all Ultra Rare or above. There's no universe where Murakumo and Ether Beryl should be released at the same rarity in the same set as Test Bear. I HATE thinking of cards as investments but the way reprints are handled forces you to accept that you're throwing away hundreds of dollars if you want to play the best cards just to have all of that value evaporate overnight when the reprint is announced.

Deciding which backrow to set or hold, or deciding to bluff by setting a normal spell are choices though. I know what you are saying, but I feel like in modern you're a lot more likely to end up in situations where it's do or die and you cannot possibly afford to play around something.

I was exaggerating a bit for sure. Every format is going to have interactions you can't account for and some level of variance is always going to have to exist. There's plenty of recent(ish) decks that don't have a line within their archetype to play around Nib (Salamangreat/Live Twin). Your deck choice these days has to reflect what's prevalent in the game at any given moment. If people are playing a lot of GY hate to counter Tear, I probably shouldn't play Zombies. Mitsu and K9 don't really care about Nib so it may fall out of favor and open the door to decks which would normally lose to it instantly.
Decision making in older formats just presents itself differently but it certainly exists. And even then you had plenty of cards that just hard countered your strategy depending on the deck. PACMAN insta loses to Thousand Eyes Restrict unless they draw backrow to deal with it.

 

[Incecticyder]

For every Fire King structure deck you have shit like S Little Knight only being available at Secret Rare for over a year. The TCG rarity distribution creates plenty of P2W formats like Snake-Eye where Bonfire, Poplar, WANTED, Promethean Princess, Flamberge, Snake-Eyes Diabellstar, Original Sinful Spoils, and Diabellstar were all Ultra Rare or above. There's no universe where Murakumo and Ether Beryl should be released at the same rarity in the same set as Test Bear. I HATE thinking of cards as investments but the way reprints are handled forces you to accept that you're throwing away hundreds of dollars if you want to play the best cards just to have all of that value evaporate overnight when the reprint is announced.

No one is saying that EVERY format has been easy. But those issues are things all of the Big 3 face to varying degrees. At least YGO has reprints and ways to defeat such formats most of the time. Look at the Blue-Eyes structure deck. Add the Primite cards to that and maybe the Crimson Dragon along with Sifr (which was considered dogshit for most of its life) and you have a very strong deck. The Dark World structure deck only needs Super Poly and Starving Venom and it is go time!

 

[Right To Bear Blarms]

No one is saying that EVERY format has been easy. But those issues are things all of the Big 3 face to varying degrees. At least YGO has reprints and ways to defeat such formats most of the time. Look at the Blue-Eyes structure deck. Add the Primite cards to that and maybe the Crimson Dragon along with Sifr (which was considered dogshit for most of its life) and you have a very strong deck. The Dark World structure deck only needs Super Poly and Starving Venom and it is go time!

Lordly Lode was a Secret and Ether Beryl and Drillbeam were both Ultras so a Primite package would set you back $150 on release...
The recent structures have been great but those are extremely low margin products for a LGS. Since packs are not draftable and I'm just as likely to pull a Giant Mimighoul as I am Lordly Lode out of ROTA, opening packs is extremely unappealing which makes carrying product just not worth it to a store. AGOV had a ton of high value chase cards but sets like DUAD or DUNE were filled with stinkers. So for a store to maintain their OTS status and to not get screwed on allotments by Konami, they have to buy tons of these garbage sets that end up just rotting on shelves. So it becomes more fiscally responsible to just stop carrying YGO altogether. The OCG release model is much better with Secret Rares also being released at Super Rare so people who want to just play the card can get the less shiny version but there would still be a higher value variant. The higher rarity variant of course wouldn't reach the same price ceiling as they do currently but at least players could have a chance of pulling something playable when opening a box.

 

[Incecticyder]

Lordly Lode was a Secret and Ether Beryl and Drillbeam were both Ultras so a Primite package would set you back $150 on release...

Which is far from ideal but there still is things one can do if they are on a budget. Splashing in handtraps that are more affordable instead is a viable option for the budget player. Sure, they will not be as fitting as the Primite cards for the deck but it will still be a decent version of a powerful deck. Not perfect but still good until prices drop.

The recent structures have been great but those are extremely low margin products for a LGS. Since packs are not draftable and I'm just as likely to pull a Giant Mimighoul as I am Lordly Lode out of ROTA, opening packs is extremely unappealing which makes carrying product just not worth it to a store. AGOV had a ton of high value chase cards but sets like DUAD or DUNE were filled with stinkers. So for a store to maintain their OTS status and to not get screwed on allotments by Konami, they have to buy tons of these garbage sets that end up just rotting on shelves. So it becomes more fiscally responsible to just stop carrying YGO altogether. The OCG release model is much better with Secret Rares also being released at Super Rare so people who want to just play the card can get the less shiny version but there would still be a higher value variant. The higher rarity variant of course wouldn't reach the same price ceiling as they do currently but at least players could have a chance of pulling something playable when opening a box.

No doubt this is a thing the OCG does better. That has not been as much of a problem because the others among the Big 3 are also having their own issues that also cause money problems for the stores. I have no idea how to persuade Konami to unfuck the rarity issue. As for the SDs, they are more of a SPECIAL case. Something that is easy to pick up and start playing or pick up because it has cards you need for your other decks. A short of grease.

Also, we need the return of the Annual Starter Deck!

 

[escampar]

Saw this video on my feed and figured I'd share it here. As far as my take on the situation goes because I liked it when I was younger, the game is really unapproachable to new players. It's very difficult to get into and learn how to play. It's not impossible, but it is difficult. I don't see how kids are supposed to figure this out the way they would MTG.

And without an anime, like many present-day Yugioh players learned when they were children.

Okay, but if I'm a parent and my kid wants to get into Yu-Gi-Oh, how am I supposed to know this? I'm not going to be really happy pulling a blister pack, figuring out the rules, and realizing A. This game is probably too complicated and B. Half of these cards are unplayable and I just wasted my money. Do you think I'm going to go out and buy more Yu-Gi-Oh cards? Fuck no, I'm just gonna steer him towards Pokemon or MTG which is easier to understand.

Exactly. Finally! Some common sense in this thread!

You're right. People don't want to do homework when they're dipping their feet in and learning a new game. They want to be able to pick up, play with their friends, and maybe they'll really like it and get into it hardcore. Then they'll do the homework.

Precisely! Why-On-Earth continue to cater and bend-over and "suck off" competitive meta sheep (like 'anime pfp Luffy D Monkey' & 'literal autism-icon Right To Bear Sonic' over here) when they are literally the most invested! the MOST COMMITTED! THE MOST ZEALOUS!! Yugioh-Konami cultists who no matter what happens with the TCG, they'll be HERE, in the online trenches, defending it to their last breath?
What a retarded waste of resources! Of potential revenue! Of optics! Of prospective players! Of possible friends!

Secondly, the abundance of MtG products might have had to do with the overprinting scandal that WotC is getting sued over.

The lawsuit was dropped dumbass! Wanna know why? Cause they're RAKING IN THE DOUGH! Cause they care enough about casuals to at least make their nerdy, tabletop card game made up of primarily mid 20s to mid 30 adult males appealing to newcomers! Because they understand that noobs who make it all the way to "let's try this game out" have already overcome soooooo much, that maybe having to deal with a CHILDRENS CARD GAME as REPULSIVE as Y-O-U would be I-N-S-A-N-E!!!!!

 

[Incecticyder]

And without an anime, like many present-day Yugioh players learned when they were children.

The children that watched the original anime would never understand how to play the game. The game never resembled what was shown in the original anime. Normal Summon Dark Magician! It advertised the game but did not teach much until much later in the GX Seasons.

Precisely! Why-On-Earth continue to cater and bend-over and "suck off" competitive meta sheep (like 'anime pfp Luffy D Monkey' & 'literal autism-icon Right To Bear Sonic' over here) when they are literally the most invested! the MOST COMMITTED! THE MOST ZEALOUS!! Yugioh-Konami cultists who no matter what happens with the TCG, they'll be HERE, in the online trenches, defending it to their last breath?
What a retarded waste of resources! Of potential revenue! Of optics! Of prospective players! Of possible friends!

Oh, someone somewhat agrees with you and you think you won the jackpot? That is rare? Mate, I rarely play meta! I am Gold on MD! You think that because I say that the game is not dogshit, I say that there is nothing wrong with it! You never read what we tell you! Everything you hear is "THE GAME IS PERFECT! SHUT UP!" when we give you detailed expanations!

The lawsuit was dropped dumbass! Wanna know why? Cause they're RAKING IN THE DOUGH! Cause they care enough about casuals to at least make their nerdy, tabletop card game made up of primarily mid 20s to mid 30 adult males appealing to newcomers! Because they understand that noobs who make it all the way to "let's try this game out" have already overcome soooooo much, that maybe having to deal with a CHILDRENS CARD GAME as REPULSIVE as Y-O-U would be I-N-S-A-N-E!!!!!

The lawsuit was by in-company people. They do not care about the LCSs or the players. Hasbro and WotC have demonstrated that when they released the 500$ Secret Lair that contained 5 cards total! They are fleecing the customers for every penny! Also, the printing errors have become numerous due to Hasbro's and WotC's lack of care! They are cutting corners everywhere!

Also, stop writing like a spastic!

 

[Dumpster dived waifu]

but I think Archetypes present more of an issue than people realize

So, I can offer a new-ish player POV on this. A couple of years back, I was looking to find a hobby to get me out of the house. Since I had just gotten back into YGO after over a decade via Master Duel, I looked to see how difficult it would be to get back into paper play.

I had two options, either I try to build a meta-ish deck like Snake-Eyes that would cost me a fortune, or a rogue pet deck I could assemble for a quarter of the price. Having no interest in a second mortgage, I opted for the pet deck option and started looking around at prices and options. I don't remember which deck I was looking to build at the time, but it was immediately apparent that if I wanted a functional deck, it was buy a shit ton of singles or gamble on THREE different sets.

The idea that if you want to build archetype, not all of the cards are even available in one set all together if you wanted to take the gambling approach that directly supports Konami or a card shop.

Unrelated to that, I ended up picking up a different game for paper play with a very chill community at my local card shop.

 

[escampar]

The children that watched the original anime would never understand how to play the game. The game never resembled what was shown in the original anime.

And yet fun kids had, in larger quantities and in better quality than the "game" you worship now. I'm gonna stop calling your nonsense Yugioh, it's not, it's just autism.

Yugioh dies when the competitive culture is the only thing left.

 

[Incecticyder]

And yet fun kids had, in larger quantities and in better quality than the "game" you worship now. I'm gonna stop calling your nonsense Yugioh, it's not, it's just autism.

Yugioh dies when the competitive culture is the only thing left.

You seem to have a lot of opinions on a game you personally do not play. Why do you waste time talking about stuff you are not even interested in? Why not play the games you want instead of shitting the thread with rants that you do not understand? Are you not all that interested in them either? Or are you shitting up their threads too?

 

[escampar]

You seem to have a lot of opinions on a game you personally do not play. Why do you waste time talking about stuff you are not even interested in? Why not play the games you want instead of shitting the thread with rants that you do not understand? Are you not all that interested in them either? Or are you shitting up their threads too?

This is what I fucking hate the most about your kind. You warp the heart and soul of something so beloved to the point that it is unrecognizable from what it once was (LIKE A TRANNY!) and then talk down, belittle, insult, socially ostracize anyone with the courage, the willpower, the tenacity, the clear-sighted vision to see you for the snake you are and the evil that you proliferate. You don't have to tell me that you don't play paper, it's obvious. Paper, real, eye-to-eye cardboard in hand game is the most liberating, freeing, true-to-GOD way to play real Yugioh. I can change the rules, actually create infinite formats, set-up cubes, literally limitless possibility of transforming this husk of an over-optimized, garbage waste of time into something that KAZUKI TAKAHASHI HIMSELF WILL CRY AND HUG ME, LEADING ME THROUGH THE PEARLY GATES INTO HEAVEN FOR!!!!!!