The idea of Karma is bullshit - Shitting on Buddhism

[Celestial Peace]

Don't apply the Abrahamic notion of sin to a completely different tradition.

Orthodox (Theravada) Buddhists would, very roughly, say that the behaviors Christians call sin are misguided attempts to find happiness or relief. They have as their proximate cause craving and aversion, which in turn are rooted in ignorance about the nature of suffering and how to achieve true happiness. The process through which "sinful" behaviors arise is a feedback loop: the more ignorant and miserable you are, the more you "sin"; the more you "sin", the more ignorant and miserable you become. Fortunately one can learn, through mental and moral training, to disrupt this process and gradually rid oneself of ignorance. Any attempt to "game the system" would itself be rooted in ignorance and therefore counterproductive.

I think the interpretation is already wrong when you try to understand karma as something that has to do with "fairness" instead of simply the result of one's actions

This pretty much sums it all. Karma is cause and effect, not divine intervention. Is not a sentient being applying judgement but a phenomenon.

What Westerners and Abrahamics are arguing are their own myopic and retarded projection on something that goes beyond their scope of understanding. They're basically thinking about karma as "sin" and most replies in this thread end up proving the point.

The concept that karma as some sort of cosmic sentient force that will bring justice for the wronged ones and punishment for the perpetrators is just a rehash of the Abrahamic god while insisting that their misguided interpretation is the real definition of karma. What they're talking about is divine providence, not karma. Also, thinking that karma won't affect third-parties is another kind of common cognitive dissonance.

And as if this wasn't foolish enough they complain about the concept of shit happening with people who might've created bad karma but are totally fine with inheriting sin from some woman who allegedly ate an apple thousands of years ago while having nothing to do with it.

Both are slave morality.

Nice try, but the person who came up with the concept you're referring to had a very limited understanding of what he was trying to criticize because he read about it through a biased source.

We have stories throughout history of monsters doing horrible things to many people, and facing dying peacefully in a bed.

That implies that one would feel good about killing as long as one isn't caught and punished. If one has seen the consequences of murder, they're aware that it doesn't stop at the legal or moral border. Most serial killers aren't what you would call on "good vibes". Quite the contrary. And their evil deeds are the source of their own suffering. No one who kills without any remorse is mentally healthy to begin with. No mass murderer loves oneself, and the more one kills, the more fucked up one turns out to be. That's cause and effect, therefore karma.

If killing is only a matter of getting caught that completely excludes all the spiritual corruption that comes along with it. That causes suffering which is brought on through karma.

And karma is not something exclusively individual, it affects others as well because no one is safe, and we're all interconnected in a net of cause and effect.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

Karma is bullshit. The Karmic Field is not. You can control the Karmic Field and how you allow other people to impact you. You cannot control the idea of karma and retribution itself.

 

[Do Not Touch Me Pls]

The Karmic system is a popular concept amongst non-Abrahamic religion and not just with Buddhism and Hinduism. The Greeks and Egyptians have it to a certain extent, by the way, hence the "Pyramid curse" stories and the stories of Greek Gods turning people offended them or were actual pieces of shit into monsters. The main purpose is to deter anyone who wants to defile the faith (i.e. breaking Goddess statues or stealing parypus scrolls from tombs) and to prevent devouts from crossing the line. It's never meant to be shoved down on everyone else.

On the other hand, Judaism, Islam and Christianity believes that anyone who transgresses their norms, no matter if they are believers or not, must be tortured to death and desecrated by mortal hands, because by their own logic this supposedly all-loving, all-knowing and omnipotent God entrusted defending the faith on them. Divine providence will only be enforced as a final push during the final apocalypse. And it's not just sinners either; all non-believers will suffer from retribution, but you will be pardoned for almost anything arranging from rape and mass murder as long as you believe.

This is why not even the Jeets dare force everyone in the world to worship Shiva, unlike the Jews who decided that Abrahamic religion must be shoved down the throats of all of humanity in the planet under the threat of death.

 

[We Are The Witches]

Throughout history there has been a good amount of cruel, disgusting, evil by most standards, tyrannical, etc people that have had good lives, or that have never faced a "fair" punishment for their actions.

Meanwhile, there have been innocent, poor, etc people (and children) that have suffered and died miserably, and the universe has done nothing to mend it.

So that pretty much decisevely answers how retarded the idea of karma is, unless you believe in hell/heaven, reincarnation, and so on.

I don't believe in such things, and as a side note, it's only natural for "the universe" to not care, as I only see it as a pool of cause-effects, no one divinely powerful cares about your suffering, so it's what's expected. Also, these disgusting people that I mentioned don't have to be popular figures (like everyone is obsessed with Hitler), I believe the most cruel scumbags have probably been normal individuals, fathers, mothers, regular Joes/Janes living their day to day lives, but hiding their dark habits and beliefs from public knowledge and history.

 

[Celestial Peace]

So that pretty much decisevely answers how retarded the idea of karma is

You're only answering to the concept of determinism and sin which you and others ITT insist that it's the true definition of karma, as I've wrote above:

What Westerners and Abrahamics are arguing are their own myopic and retarded projection on something that goes beyond their scope of understanding. They're basically thinking about karma as "sin" and most replies in this thread end up proving the point.

The concept that karma as some sort of cosmic sentient force that will bring justice for the wronged ones and punishment for the perpetrators is just a rehash of the Abrahamic god while insisting that their misguided interpretation is the real definition of karma. What they're talking about is divine providence, not karma. Also, thinking that karma won't affect third-parties is another kind of common cognitive dissonance.

Karma is cause and effect, period. There's no cosmic judge behind it for it's a natural law. You reap what you sow.

When Issac Newton realized how gravity works he didn't thought: "Well, this apple fell on me because it was destined to do so."

We don't think gravity as something sentient that arbitrarily chooses what will fall and what will keep floating and when it'll happen. The same goes for karma.

unless you believe in hell/heaven, reincarnation, and so on.

You can't believe in these things and reject the concept of karma, otherwise it dosen't make sense. You can't divorce karma from the heavenly/hellish realm and rebirth for they are natural results of your own actions from past deeds that go beyond your current life.

no one divinely powerful cares about your suffering, so it's what's expected

You're not someone special that would warrant such special treatment because you're bound to commit both benevolent and misguided acts. It's with inner goodwill that "true love" is birthed unlike being a conditioned meat puppet under control of some deity whose only purpose is the extention and manifestation of someone else's will.

One, by oneself, wants to spread benevolence because they want to break the cycle of cause and effect, not because it benefits them, but because seeing people breaking free of the same trap that bounds them is what brings true happiness, unlike being conditioned by others.

 

[Chunky Salsa]

Both are slave morality. Always do what's in your best interest - sometimes that will include being nice to others because it buys you social brownie points, and other times it means taking what you want (within legal limits of course). Leave those with slave morality to cope with their delusions of good boy points for the afterlife while you get busy in this one. I'd pity them but even that is too much caring.

That's...that's not what slave morality is.

 

[We Are The Witches]

Karma is cause and effect, period. There's no cosmic judge behind it for it's a natural law. You reap what you sow.

At that point, that's just a fancy word to refer to the same thing.

If the idea is that karma is a phenomenon that would dictate some aspect in the future (in this case of the individual) because of past/present actions, that is not simply the cause-effect of a deterministic world, then it implies there is some sort of rules it's following (that are akin to divine, or what a human would think of as a cope). If it's simply cause-effect, then just call it that.

Where's the bad karma and its results for the man/woman that is consistently "evil" or bad, by most common sense standards, but by pure coincidence manages to get by in life as a happy person with no problems until their death, after a long fullfilling life?

In that scenario, the "reap what you sow" is trivialized, the butterfly effect that was involved in this person's life just ended up giving them a good existence, by pure coincidence. And them being a morally corrupt person didn't even necessarily mean that they were at risk of suffering from retaliation, assume this happened in a less civilized time where their servants/victims/whatever couldn't retaliate even if they wanted to; born at the right time in the right place, completely unrelated to their merits, or virtue, or whatever as a person, just a lucky dipshit.

 

[Pedophobe]

Stripped of any spiritual element, the basic idea that if you do good things you make the world a slightly better place and if you do bad things you make the world a slightly worse place seems pretty self-evident to me.

 

[Celestial Peace]

At that point, that's just a fancy word to refer to the same thing.

This word was around to mean exactly that for more than 2500 years, dude. It's like ranting about four wheeled vehicles being called "cars": is quite a stupid complain.

Karma has a specific context of causeaand effect in which it generates results given the right conditions.

then it implies there is some sort of rules it's following

Didn't you pay attention to where I wrote about karma being a natural law of cause and effect?

If the conditions are met, the phenomenon happens. It's not that hard or confusing.

Where's the bad karma and its results for the man/woman that is consistently "evil" or bad, by most common sense standards, but by pure coincidence manages to get by in life as a happy person with no problems until their death, after a long fullfilling life?

As I've wrote before karma isn't automatic, it happens when conditions are met. And, again, karma isn't a moral sentient judge that punishes or rewards.

Your bad deeds will result in bad karma, but such result won't happen in a linear way because it takes into account who, how and why, and its results are not restricted to this current life.

Wishing for immediate punishment only results in illusion and frustration and will only bring suffering to you in the long run for your mind will be plagued by ill-thoughts and your body will react accordingly. This would be an example of bad karma.

Your example of a bad person doing bad things is vague and does not say much about karma. Was this person a serial killer? A rapist? A scam artist? A corrupt politician? A drug dealer? A pimp? Smuggled people? Because it's safe to say that, most of the time, these people will face the results of their own actions, because the conditions for that to happen are often met and not because it's bound to happen, determined by some being who would have control over it, despite it happening anyway.

Determinism is an illusion and the world doesn't work the way you wish it would. This is more of a cope than what karma actually entails.

 

[We Are The Witches]

Because it's safe to say that, most of the time, these people will face the results of their own actions, because the conditions for that to happen are often met and not because it's bound to happen, determined by some being who would have control over it, despite it happening anyway.

If they face it it will be due to coincidence, and at that point it just comes down to being lucky. Doing bad deeds may open you to face the negative consequences associated with it, but not necessarily. And because of it, my example (it's vague on purpose, because it doesn't need more detail, since it's possible in the many iterations you can formulate it) shows someone who didn't face negative results despite their actions.

They just faced the neutral/positive result of their actions, because the situation allowed it. Their actions didn't generate "bad karma", they are just parts on the equation that will determine the result. What you're calling bad karma ("Your bad deeds will result in bad karma") doesn't really mean anything beyond them possibly facing repercussions because of the obvious effects it may have (them feeling bad due to their own actions, them being screwed over by their victims, etc).

Which is why I said that it's a fancy way of referring to cause-effect, it's not a complaint, it's an observation regardless of how many years ths word has been used.

Determinism is an illusion and the world doesn't work the way you wish it would. This is more of a cope than what karma actually entails.

It's not a cope. I am sure you know how this world works better than others.

 

[The Black Kettle]

karma has to do with your actions while you have been granted the gift of being a human in this life. the wheel of rebirth is random… you could be an ant in the next life and impact nothing

 

[Celestial Peace]

If they face it it will be due to coincidence

There's no coincidence because their bad karma will eventually caught up with them, becasue said conditions will eventually be met. It's impossible to avoid it whether in this current life or in the next one.

In fact, this is where rebirth comes to play: whatever you did in this life, will result in how your next life will be. Example: if you're a degenerate serial killer who also rapes and likes to torture people, the result will be rebirth in hell realm. It's not a punishment delievered by some deity but rather the natural result of your own actions.

You can't escape karma regardless of how long it takes.

And because of it, my example (it's vague on purpose, because it doesn't need more detail, since it's possible in the many iterations you can formulate it) shows someone who didn't face negative results despite their actions.

You might as well ask me what if pigs had wings. And even then, as I wrote above, their karma will eventually caught up with them.

Their actions didn't generate "bad karma"

Bullshit. One cannot escape the results of their actions. Plus, the effect of their deeds will extend to their victims who might reproduce bad karma or good karma themselves depending on how they react to it (i.e.: revenge or letting it go).

It's not a cope. I am sure you know how this world works better than others.

This realm is another realm that is part of a cycle of death and rebirth. Granted, it's better to be born here rather than any other lower realm but not as good as being born in a higher realm, but it's part of a cycle and objectively one shouldn't waste their time getting attached to either or. One should break the cycle of death and rebirth.

the wheel of rebirth is random

It is not. Your next life will be determined based on how you act in your current life.

 

[souschef]

karma has to do with your actions while you have been granted the gift of being a human in this life. the wheel of rebirth is random… you could be an ant in the next life and impact nothing

The opposite. Birth in hell realms is different than the abrahmic hell. It's temporary, even though it would take billions of years to cleanse accrued bad karma

Animals can accrue good karma if cared for, through actions of others

 

[evilkog]

I think its somewhat real in the sense that generally being nice and kind to others will benefit you in the long run, unless you plan to be a billionaire. But otherwise its just cope, just like many modern beliefs and platitudes. That guy who fucked you over probably doesn't care and will go on to live a nice life.

 

[The Black Kettle]

The opposite. Birth in hell realms is different than the abrahmic hell. It's temporary, even though it would take billions of years to cleanse accrued bad karma

Animals can accrue good karma if cared for, through actions of others

I guess the way to word it is that you are here by random chance and didn’t spawn in as a frog or something. Animals to my understanding in the traditional Buddhist faith are unable to know the path so they cannot really make choices that steer them away from darkness.

The way it was explained to me by someone was that a tiger eats meat but has no discrimination on killing. It knows nothing other than to survive on instinct, not a moral compass. It can’t practice in the same way a human can. We are lucky to be born human this time around because we have the ability to practice. What happens next is random

 

[souschef]

I guess the way to word it is that you are here by random chance and didn’t spawn in as a frog or something. Animals to my understanding in the traditional Buddhist faith are unable to know the path so they cannot really make choices that steer them away from darkness.

True, karma nature is mainly rooted in intent. An animal won't spawn in lower realms because it's violent when it hunts its prey. But like in hell realms, you get out by wearing out the karma, or attachment. It's an inferior realm, not hell, but still harsh

It's a misconception that lower realms in Buddhism are punishments, they aren't, it's just a consequence and means of purifying bad karma

We are lucky to be born human this time around because we have the ability to practice. What happens next is random

Being born as an animal, or a hungry ghost, or in hell realms is consequence of bad karma and straying of the dharmic ways. It's consequential, one chooses to go down this path. Accrue good karma and you get favorable rebirths, accrue bad karma and you'll get a bad rebirth. It's never random, but i agree that being born human is the best shot at ending the cycle. Even the divine realms are dangerous, because there's so much pleasure and carefreeness that you go complacent. Being human gets you in the spot where you can actually reflect on things

Stream enterers (people who achieve the first stage of enlightenment) won't be reborn into lower realms, because they understand the cause of dhukka (suffering) and the way to stop it, not falling ever again into the pitfalls caused by craving

It's a very difficult thing to do

 

[ReceiveAndAsk]

I can't take seriously any morality system that is based on promise/warning of a particular afterlife. Heaven/Hell, Karma influencing your future incarnations, 40 virgins. The way I see Karma is simply, consequences for your actions in this life, and not a hard rule.

 

[only shallow]

I think karma as I've understood it in the past, is not a mechanistic 'do this and get result'. Karma is about intention. Buddhism seeks to break the cycle of becoming through severing craving for created things. Craving is our desires on a basic level, like having a craving for an experience, but also craving as a sense of a fixed self which is ultimately illusory. Karma is about intention in that when we act from ignorance of the fact there is no actual thing that is our 'self', then we are reinforcing that illusion and we remain stuck on the wheel of karma. The aim is to get off this wheel by eliminating craving and our notion of a fixed and identifiable self, it's recognising that we are a conglomeration of sense impressions, thoughts, feelings etc. So karma is the reinforcing of that delusion which results in binding us tighter. This illusion leads to rebirth as we have to work through this to reach a state of unbinding (nirvana) when we won't come back any more.

 

[Town Drunk]

I can't take seriously any morality system that is based on promise/warning of a particular afterlife. Heaven/Hell, Karma influencing your future incarnations, 40 virgins. The way I see Karma is simply, consequences for your actions in this life, and not a hard rule.

This. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you seek out violence you will one day find a more violent person who ends you. If you steal, you will associate with thieves who steal from you. You oppress others, they will rise up and oppress you. There is always a bigger fish.

There is no karmic wheel in the sky that judges your sins, just life style choices leading to good or bad ends. It doesn't always happen, but the exception doesn't rule out the majority.

You reap what you sow.

 

[souschef]

This. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you seek out violence you will one day find a more violent person who ends you. If you steal, you will associate with thieves who steal from you. You oppress others, they will rise up and oppress you. There is always a bigger fish.

There is no karmic wheel in the sky that judges your sins, just life style choices leading to good or bad ends. It doesn't always happen, but the exception doesn't rule out the majority.

You reap what you sow.

The problem with this interpretation is trying to look at karma as affecting a single lifespan, you got to look at the holistic picture

There's no understanding karma if you don't understand the concept of dharma, dhukka, samsara and nibbana