Serious LGBT Discussion

It's funny how HIV/AIDS is only seen as a gay thing in America but elsewhere, like Russia and Africa, it's not.

I don't think anyone here is downplaying HIV/AIDS itself, as it's bad, even if you can live with it in 2025 with meds, but most people get it nowadays because they don't care. A lot of gay blacks, for example, are known within gay communities to have multiple hookups a day, usually unprotected and then get surprised when they test positive. Ignoring PrEP, they don't even use condoms (which reduces the chance of getting it by 80%-90%) and spread like crazy. Just use the damn condom. HIV itself is pretty rare to get but a lot of people have sex constantly and ignore protection and then get it. Insane

I don't think we will ever reach the 1970s-1980s level of AIDS epidemic again but in some communities, it never went away.


Stories from Atlanta say 20k new cases in the city alone
 
Mpox wasn’t a “replay” of HIV, unless you mean in the sense that stigma spread faster than the virus. HIV wasn’t caused by “gay behavior” any more than COVID was caused by choirs or nursing homes. Men — especially straight men — have a long history of promiscuity, rape, and abuse spreading disease too. The difference is who society chooses to shame. If you want to talk about epidemics honestly, blame stigma, lack of public health investment, and structural power imbalances — not gay men. Otherwise, it’s just parroting 1980s homophobia dressed up as a “deep thought.”
Lmao yes, stigma is why homosexual males have the highest HIV and MPOX rates in the west. Lmao.

Care to elaborate? As that’s not really much a deep thought as a shallow thought you didn’t do too much thinking on and you parroted.
You saying that i dont think is really funny considering you belong to a group that a needed extensive pharmaceutical support just to stop yourselves from being completely wiped out by your own sexual proclivities

HIV/AIDS is a virus (HIV), not a result of “privacy” or “promiscuity.”
AIDS has never really been just a gay disease, slogans aside. Statistically, a gay man needs to bottom 50 times with an infected person before he has a >50% chance of catching HIV, so even for the average gay man, it should take at least two weeks.
Don't have anal sex with men is pretty clear example to slash chance of catching HIV. Everything else is just cope
 
It's funny how HIV/AIDS is only seen as a gay thing in America but elsewhere, like Russia and Africa, it's not.

I don't think anyone here is downplaying HIV/AIDS itself, as it's bad, even if you can live with it in 2025 with meds, but most people get it nowadays because they don't care. A lot of gay blacks, for example, are known within gay communities to have multiple hookups a day, usually unprotected and then get surprised when they test positive. Ignoring PrEP, they don't even use condoms (which reduces the chance of getting it by 80%-90%) and spread like crazy. Just use the damn condom. HIV itself is pretty rare to get but a lot of people have sex constantly and ignore protection and then get it. Insane

I don't think we will ever reach the 1970s-1980s level of AIDS epidemic again but in some communities, it never went away.


Stories from Atlanta say 20k new cases in the city alone
Whenever I talk about being against what PrEP enables, I always get some gay melodrama saying “YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I WENT THROUGH… PPL DIED IN THE AIDS CRISIS..”

Look at pre-PrEP AIDS research. And it comes out that highest HIV risk was having high number of sexual partners, more than drug usage and unprotected anal sex without knowing their status.

Wait, so you’re telling me that you can simply avoid it by not having casual sex? Who could have ever guessed this… https://journals.lww.com/aidsonline..._for_hiv_infection_among_men_who_have.13.aspx
 
Lmao yes, stigma is why homosexual males have the highest HIV and MPOX rates in the west. Lmao.


You saying that i dont think is really funny considering you belong to a group that a needed extensive pharmaceutical support just to stop yourselves from being completely wiped out by your own sexual proclivities


AIDS has never really been just a gay disease, slogans aside. Statistically, a gay man needs to bottom 50 times with an infected person before he has a >50% chance of catching HIV, so even for the average gay man, it should take at least two weeks.
Don't have anal sex with men is pretty clear example to slash chance of catching HIV. Everything else is just cope
While i am not saying the stigma isn't fully wrong, i do think it has set back looking into the issue from a scientific and objective viewpoint. HIV is only seen as a gay disease in the West because 60% of cases are from gay men and their lifestyle, however, elsewhere it's seen as a straight disease like in Russia (drug abuse) or Africa (rape, ignoring condoms, etc)

Objectively speaking, HIV is a rare disease to get, with only around 2%. If you're using a condom it reduces your chances by 90%ish and PrEP even more. However, it adds up more if you're not doing either and meeting with multiple people over and over

Whenever I talk about being against what PrEP enables, I always get some gay melodrama saying “YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I WENT THROUGH… PPL DIED IN THE AIDS CRISIS..”

Look at pre-PrEP AIDS research. And it comes out that highest HIV risk was having high number of sexual partners, more than drug usage and unprotected anal sex without knowing their status.

Wait, so you’re telling me that you can simply avoid it by not having casual sex? Who could have ever guessed this… https://journals.lww.com/aidsonline..._for_hiv_infection_among_men_who_have.13.aspx
I think there needs to be a new term for this, because at this point it's not even once in a blue moon casual hookup, meet, fuck (with protection), leave. A lot of gay fuck CONSTANTLY and in rapid succession multiple hook-ups a day, week, months, year, etc. or if they do, they have 0 protection, no condoms or PrEP and wing it

I think PrEP is a breakthrough in the scientific world but it has made the excuse that a lot of gays have the mindset of "oh I'm on PrEP, therefore i can do whatever". Sure, it can reduce HIV but not with other STD's like herpes or gonorrhea.
 
HIV is only seen as a gay disease in the West because 60% of cases are from gay men and their lifestyle, however, elsewhere it's seen as a straight disease like in Russia (drug abuse) or Africa (rape, ignoring condoms, etc)
Africans literally think raping virgin toddler girls will cure them of their AIDS so I'm not surprised so many straight women have it. They also birth 120k babies with AIDS every year.

Grok says Russia doesn't consider it a straight disease, they just consolidate MSM and drug use into a stigmatized "high-risk" activity.
  • Prevalence: The U.S. has a relatively low HIV prevalence (0.6%), Africa (especially sub-Saharan) has the highest globally (9.0% average, with peaks above 20%), and Russia’s rate is moderate but growing (1.5%).
  • Perception: In Africa, HIV is seen as a widespread issue, primarily spread through heterosexual contact but not exclusively labeled as a "straight disease" due to stigma around high-risk groups. In Russia, it is largely associated with marginalized groups like drug users and MSM, not heterosexuals, due to politicization and stigma, despite significant heterosexual transmission.
 
Africans literally think raping virgin toddler girls will cure them of their AIDS so I'm not surprised so many straight women have it. They also birth 120k babies with AIDS every year.

Grok says Russia doesn't consider it a straight disease, they just consolidate MSM and drug use into a stigmatized "high-risk" activity.
  • Prevalence: The U.S. has a relatively low HIV prevalence (0.6%), Africa (especially sub-Saharan) has the highest globally (9.0% average, with peaks above 20%), and Russia’s rate is moderate but growing (1.5%).
  • Perception: In Africa, HIV is seen as a widespread issue, primarily spread through heterosexual contact but not exclusively labeled as a "straight disease" due to stigma around high-risk groups. In Russia, it is largely associated with marginalized groups like drug users and MSM, not heterosexuals, due to politicization and stigma, despite significant heterosexual transmission.
Those retards are literally given Condoms and the Meds for HIV for free and a lot of them refuse to each either of them. At least the smarter gays in America use condoms or PrEP, while they don't (and blacks in the West). I can see why USAID was shut down

I would argue that in Russia, it's seen as an MSM issue even if significant heterosexual transmission, because of the stigma associated with America
 
Grok says Russia doesn't consider it a straight disease, they just consolidate MSM and drug use into a stigmatized "high-risk" activity.
Yeah, it is not called a "straight disease", it's more like the disease itself is used as an insult for anything and anyone, similar to how you would call someone or something cancerous or toxic, but we're falling into semantics here. Point is, places that are highly homophobic or have strict anti-LGBT laws are not only not immune to HIV and AIDS spreading, they sometimes may have an even higher rate of transmission of such diseases than countries where homosexuality is commonly accepted.

Overall, don't do drugs, have protected sex, drive responsibly, yada yada. If you can't abstain, there are numerous other things you can do to minimize harm like using clean needles. Hell, in orgies and porn companies it is becoming standard that you must possess medical documents proving that you aren't carrying any kind of STI before you're allowed to raw dog it and you still have to get tested constantly if you want to make it a habit. It's all mostly down to hygiene and culture surrounding it really. Having constant access to clean water and soaps is the real miracle that makes modern sexual promiscuity possible, medicine can only do so much past a certain point. With that in mind... What do you think is the one thing African nations just so happen to be notorious of lacking in?
 
Not recommended unless you're absolutely sure you can make it work, and even then, contrary to popular belief, dying a virgin is far from the most shameful thing that can happen to anyone.
Keep in mind though Christ said that some are called to singleness, Matthew 19:11-12. To hell with what the world thinks, that's here for a lifetime, which is only a moment in the grand scheme of things. If you don't feel compelled to marry then stay single, if you love a man you love him like a brother or a father, that's the highest form of love one man can give for another, lust isn't love, you hold the people dear in your life with dignity following the examples and teaching God gave you.
Chastity is definitely the only way. I will be introducing temptation otherwise for sure. But man oh man.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Stick to God, die to self.
It's not the best place to ask for guidance, but it's good enough for an autistic shut-in like me.
Why not just make an anonymous email account and use that on a forum or website more focused on this? Better to have a place where you can actually discuss this with other's who'll cite and backup what they say with scripture, rather than secular pessimism "You're just going to relapse, or you're going to fail".
Just because some people here hate faggots or faggotry here doesn't make them a friend, the enemy of your enemy isn't your friend.
 
Africans literally think raping virgin toddler girls will cure them of their AIDS so I'm not surprised so many straight women have it. They also birth 120k babies with AIDS every year.

Grok says Russia doesn't consider it a straight disease, they just consolidate MSM and drug use into a stigmatized "high-risk" activity.
  • Prevalence: The U.S. has a relatively low HIV prevalence (0.6%), Africa (especially sub-Saharan) has the highest globally (9.0% average, with peaks above 20%), and Russia’s rate is moderate but growing (1.5%).
  • Perception: In Africa, HIV is seen as a widespread issue, primarily spread through heterosexual contact but not exclusively labeled as a "straight disease" due to stigma around high-risk groups. In Russia, it is largely associated with marginalized groups like drug users and MSM, not heterosexuals, due to politicization and stigma, despite significant heterosexual transmission.
Africans also do this thing called "Dry Sex". Sounds more innocent than it is, but it's evil.
 
Those retards are literally given Condoms and the Meds for HIV for free and a lot of them refuse to each either of them. At least the smarter gays in America use condoms or PrEP, while they don't (and blacks in the West). I can see why USAID was shut down
Aren't parts of Africa where they think dryer is better for sex which causes more friction and more ways to expose the parties to HIV.

Yep....
2025-08-26_08-59.webp
Edit: Late, as usual.
 
While i am not saying the stigma isn't fully wrong, i do think it has set back looking into the issue from a scientific and objective viewpoint. HIV is only seen as a gay disease in the West because 60% of cases are from gay men and their lifestyle, however, elsewhere it's seen as a straight disease like in Russia (drug abuse) or Africa (rape, ignoring condoms, etc)
I mean it's kind of like how smoking causes cancer, but cancer isn't a cigarette-specific disease. Similarly, sodomy increases chances of contracting AIDs, but it isn't the only way.

Speaking of smoking, how come smoking is treated differently from sodomy? If you look at the stats, the chances of getting cancer from cigarettes are only 7% higher than the chances of getting cancer among non smokers. There is probably a higher chances of getting STDs from sodomy that cancer from cigarettes. Not condoning smoking, obviously. Just pointing out the difference in the way the two are treated by the mainstream.
 
I mean it's kind of like how smoking causes cancer, but cancer isn't a cigarette-specific disease. Similarly, sodomy increases chances of contracting AIDs, but it isn't the only way.

Speaking of smoking, how come smoking is treated differently from sodomy? If you look at the stats, the chances of getting cancer from cigarettes are only 7% higher than the chances of getting cancer among non smokers. There is probably a higher chances of getting STDs from sodomy that cancer from cigarettes. Not condoning smoking, obviously. Just pointing out the difference in the way the two are treated by the mainstream.
I could honestly say the same thing with diabetes, which is arguably worse than HIV/AIDS medically, because even with HIV you can take meds for the rest of your life and mostly be ok, while with diabetes, even when you take the meds/insulin, your body is still rotting and is more common

I think the issue with HIV is because it's seen as dirtier and lesser if you catch it, in part because it's viewed as a gay thing in America because of some gays lifestyles, and STDs in general are seen as nasty. For as much as people talk about condoms, people still don't use them
 

Not sure if it's because I'm growing older or because I'm shifting opinions in general, but I just can't take people like these seriously anymore. It's naive, childish, and just generally doesn't really provide a decent argument. And that's considering that I give them benefit of the doubt, I do think that these laws are a bit retarded. A decade ago I would have agreed with what she says, but right now it's like some veil got taken off of my eyes.

"You can't propagate someone's sexuality."
You pretty much can affect children in a way that they might develop something sexually. Sure, it's not as simple as "show kids rainbow and it will automatically make them gay", but sexuality is complex. One thing that I notice about these people is that they say their first feelings that they were getting as tweens and early teens is a proof that their sexuality is natal and normal, but being a decade old is already old enough to be packed with all sorts of things that you were conditioned into, be it openly, or something have misfired in your brain. Not sure if I'm making sense here, basically what I'm trying to say is that you aren't a blank person by the time you hit puberty. Children express early signs of socialization after they're born, there were some studies that showed that newborns cry with a different accent depending on where they were gestated.

You know the whole thing with bihet women and fakebians? The whole discourse around them is that they were all convincingly and intentionally lying. It's all pretty much word for word "akshully these weren't real trannies" discourse. I think it's all aggressive denial to hide the possibility that maybe, just maybe, not everyone who engages and even enjoys SSA activity was "born this way". And I've been observant enough to notice all the small things that were said among these people, things that they won't talk about or forget about when asked to explain why their sexuality is natural, things that eventually all came together and raised enough questions not only towards troons, but the whole alphabet soup. Way too many people in my life have unknowingly said things that support the idea that trauma has played a role in developing the way they did. PL Myself included. I just can't pretend I don't see it anymore.

Anyway, moving on.

The whole "I got beaten up" story would have left an impression on me years ago, but right now it's just... It's drama for the sake of drama. You say nothing to creepy looking drunkards on the street. Preferably sprint elsewhere and get lost. Yes, I do think it's technically a homophobic crime, but the truth about these encounters is that it's always a crime roulette game. These people pick on everything they will consider a "valid" reason to beat you up.

And of course she had to say that she's now non-binary and that she was trying to "educate" transphobes, and then proceeds to say "I thought the problem was ignorance. But no, some people weren't confused, they just hated us." I don't even know how to begin to unpack this. How many of these "haters" were actually people rightfully criticizing live human experiments? I can't even take her words seriously because I was around these people long enough to know that they're lying and intentionally framing everything to be seen as victims.

She talks about something I has been thinking about quite a lot as of recently. The whole freedom thing. How she felt that current political climate has been suffocating her, and such. And I get it, I truly do, but here's the thing. To these people, it's always an euphemism of their sexuality and gender. Nothing more. Their "freedom" is only about that. Their whole identity, personality, is built on their sexuality and gender. Why is freedom reduced to a single activity that shouldn't even happen in the open, regardless if it's straight or gay.
Like I said, I don't know if I'm getting old, but what's about your life as a whole? Okay, you can't talk about eating pussy everywhere you go, but what about living wage? Medical services? Are you restricted from talking about your hobbies or a job, or whatever else? Do you even have a girlfriend you'd want to marry to care about these laws? How long it will be until she starts a gofundme for some inevitable medical issue that she won't be able to pay for? Nobody stays 24 forever.

Last but not least, another thing that popped in my mind while watching this video is all the psychotic garbage that has been going on with the lgbtljfgslksjgf crowd during the past decade. She talks about not being safe anywhere because muh alt-rights are coming for freedomz all over the globe, but is it really suprising given that the alphabet soup proves on a daily basis everything that we were warned about years ago? I don't even know if she's ignorant one or she's willfully ignoring rampant grooming, exposing children to porn, gaslighing kids and adults alike for the sake of "queer rights", and so on, we got a whole forum worth of history on these groups. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
 
You pretty much can affect children in a way that they might develop something sexually. Sure, it's not as simple as "show kids rainbow and it will automatically make them gay", but sexuality is complex. One thing that I notice about these people is that they say their first feelings that they were getting as tweens and early teens is a proof that their sexuality is natal and normal, but being a decade old is already old enough to be packed with all sorts of things that you were conditioned into, be it openly, or something have misfired in your brain. Not sure if I'm making sense here, basically what I'm trying to say is that you aren't a blank person by the time you hit puberty. Children express early signs of socialization after they're born, there were some studies that showed that newborns cry with a different accent depending on where they were gestated.
I suppose that makes sense, that you can influence somebody's sexuality and fetishes via pavlovian response and stuff, but it's more complicated than that. Let's take music for instance, various different cultures had developed their own notation systems and rhythms that may feel alien to western ears, but to those raised by such melodies they may seem natura, and find western music unnatural sounding. However, that can backfire, I think we all have heard anecdotes of somebody coming to despise country/folk music, because they come from some fuckass rural town in a middle of nowhere where the radios, the concerts and family gatherings all play the exact same music over and over again for multiple decades. One I've heard had somebody straight up stating that during their whole childhood they believed they hated music itself, because their pensioner filled small town only ever listened to soviet era russian pop and it wasn't until they moved to a city they realized that they love music, they just REALLY did not like the music they were raised with. By that logic, I don't think it's that unlikely that some woman in 19th century Victorian England would develop a lesbian attraction or become straight up asexual, simply because they spent most of their lives living in an industrial port town, where all the men are bearded unkempt sailors, coal smeared miners and soulless factory workers, all of whom reek of sweat. While the women by contrast would spend some meagre funds of theirs to buy make up, get dresses or read books - looking prettier, smelling prettier, sounding prettier. That could influence a small girl's sexuality to get queer, even if society itself is extremely conservative. The same can be true vice versa, that overabundance of queer media can make a boy perceive a straight relationship as even more mystical and touching.

You can influence a child to adopt certain interests or behaviors, but it can end up just being RNG. At the end of the day, they are human, they aren't robots, parents wish if raising children were as easy as giving certain input and it guaranteeing a specific output, but very rarely does it work out like that. It is not uncommon for people to come from highly conservative backgrounds where every part of their life is regulated, only for them to grow up and have no clue how to regulate anything themselves which causes them to go completely rabid and wild with sex and drugs, while at the same time, have multiple siblings that have gone through the exact same upbringing they did and not experience the same fallout from their conservative values. And this is all not even getting into romantic attraction, if it's even possible to condition a preference with such strong emotions, that sometimes is comparable to being on crack cocaine.

The whole "I got beaten up" story would have left an impression on me years ago, but right now it's just... It's drama for the sake of drama.
The whole "I got beaten up" as an argument does hinge on appealing to emotion to prove a point. What happened was still horrible, but you probably witnessed people using similar argumentation numerous times in the past only for it to become apparent that they massively exaggerated the events or even straight up lied, which made you more skeptical. Nothing necessarily wrong with that.

[she] then proceeds to say "I thought the problem was ignorance. But no, some people weren't confused, they just hated us." I don't even know how to begin to unpack this. How many of these "haters" were actually people rightfully criticizing live human experiments? I can't even take her words seriously because I was around these people long enough to know that they're lying and intentionally framing everything to be seen as victims.
I'd fully get the argument if you were referring to a westerner, but they are from Russia. That place is a shithole, you can't so much as hold up a blank sheet of paper without risking getting arrested. There are neo-nazi groups that effectively engage in lynchings of ethnic minorities and it can take over a decade for the perpetrators to be found, if they are ever caught at all. Basically, everything SJWs accuse Trump's America of, that's what Russia actually is. For all it's faults, America remains the pinnacle example of freedom of expression, where not even burning the country's flag can easily be banned without a constitutional court (even western countries like Germany have the burning of their flag banned, let that sink in). So a lot of western political groups need to adopt a persecution complex in order to create urgency in countries where political persecution is rare to non-existent. But in the case of the girl in the video... I don't think it was a persecution complex. If she kept publicly arguing about LGBTQ rights with people, she would've eventually gotten fined, arrested or even beaten for it. And I am not exaggerating in saying this... but she would be unironically safer talking about her non-binary identity on Kiwifarms than doing so publicly in Russia, because unlike Russia, Kiwifarms actually respects freedom of expression, it has it woven into it's identity. Even feminists are able to find their space here, create their own private threads and friend groups where they get to talk about how much they hate all men.

Although... the most hilarious bloody irony in all of this, is that people from such extreme circumstances rarely get their voices heard. You'll see dozens of news articles of drag queens weeping over being called a poopoo head while living a lavish lifestyle of a celebrity, while all the stories of LGBT people needing to escape Saudi Arabia over fears of being hanged by a noose hanging from an excavator never get the same level of traction, because they are way too dark, they are way too real, these aren't marketable stories. Hell, the video you found has barely over a 1k views. Actual real persecution just doesn't gain traction, because people only want to see and hear feel-good stories.
 
I suppose that makes sense, that you can influence somebody's sexuality and fetishes via pavlovian response and stuff, but it's more complicated than that.
Yes, that's what I said and I know it firsthand, but don't want to PL too much. I will just say that most things I was into weren't pavloved, which made it harder for me to even approach them critically, and that's likely why these people keep saying that nothing ever happened to them, they just happened to find X, Y, or Z arousing. It's a very hard topic to have discussion about because one, it will require sharing tons of personal details case by case to provide context (and most people I know with a similar story just lay low and move on with their lives) and two, we live in an era where everyone expects a short answer and if the answer requires contextual elaboration, it's a bad answer not worth listening to. I guess that's why nobody really talks about it, although patterns are very similar to trans identities, something that more and more detrans individuals are open about, so I'm not really sure why most people decide to stay quiet on sexuality.

I'd fully get the argument if you were referring to a westerner, but they are from Russia.
I thought that I did make this remark, but for some reason can't find it, so here it is: I do agree that Russian laws regarding freedom of speech are highkey bonkers, and I also support free speech even if it's retarded. I also, despite seeing homosexuality as sin and as an aberration, condemn actual homophobia, nations that pride ( ;) ) themselves on persecuting people aren't as based as they think they are.

That said, my stance doesn't really change much, the speech is still retarded and at the core these people aren't really that much different from western queers. From experience, not different at all, actually. Except they're not going insane in the open for obvious reasons. I often even wonder if it is even possible to actually coexist in the long run without cutting all this out the same way Russia did, because what I observe in both progressive countries like America/western Europe and (currently) neutral grounds like some places in Eastern Europe, coexistence and boundaries seem to be rather temporary. Mostly because LGBT+ push for more all the time, and sane LGB people don't really change the situation much since historically all sorts of depravity was connected to the mainstream activism anyway.
 
we live in an era where everyone expects a short answer and if the answer requires contextual elaboration, it's a bad answer not worth listening to. I guess that's why nobody really talks about it,
I still recall how back in a day the large crutch of the issue regarding homosexuality was whether or not it was a choice or not. I glanced what the scientific consensus is and apparently it is.... both? Like, there is no gay gene, but it doesn't eliminate the genetic factor... I can't even reference it without contextual elaboration, maybe there is a good reason nobody has this discussion of choice vs nature anymore, as it goes nowhere.

I thought that I did make this remark, but for some reason can't find it, so here it is: I do agree that Russian laws regarding freedom of speech are highkey bonkers
If you did make a remark about it, maybe it was multiple pages ago and I hadn't seen it. My bad.

I often even wonder if it is even possible to actually coexist in the long run without cutting all this out the same way Russia did, because what I observe in both progressive countries like America/western Europe and (currently) neutral grounds like some places in Eastern Europe, coexistence and boundaries seem to be rather temporary.
From what I've seen, the easiest way to make the gays and the straights to coexist IRL is cheap beer and decent free music performances. Being three pints of Guinness down while hearing europop and white girl music blasted from speakers is enough to make anyone forget any grievances. Doesn't matter if you're a macho christian conservative or a sissy marxist leftist, nobody can resist the urge of singing barbie girl while drunk. Much more effective in alleviating tensions than intense censorship that makes everybody distrust everyone.

also, despite seeing homosexuality as sin and as an aberration, condemn actual homophobia, nations that pride ( ;) ) themselves on persecuting people aren't as based as they think they are.
Very interesting. Can you elaborate on it? Why do you see homosexuality as sin, but at the same time condemn homophobia (well, besides the right to freedom of expression).
 
Atrás
Top Abajo