Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Mad_Dog]

Having said that, and as I have noted in this thread, you can kind of make purgatory work if you squint your eyes a little. The biggest obstacle it has is Jesus's words to the thief on the cross, "“I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise,"- Luke 23:43, but you can overcome this contradiction by having Purgatory be a place of no more than a few hours. The thief died shortly after 3 PM and we know he's in Heaven by midnight (per Jesus). Now I don't think theres any Catholic theologian who would think this but if we make purgatory a place people go for, say no more than 9 hours, you could make it work, it turns Purgatory into no more than a cosmic layover on your trip to Heaven but because I'm unaware of a Catholic doctrine that set a minimum time limit for Purgatory you can make it work.

I don't see the link between Saint Dismas and purgatory. Is it a protestant anti-Catholic talking point? Christ saved him in an extraordinary way when he said “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" no purgation required. Neither was Sheol mentioned, only paradise, where he entered with Christ.

I haven't found any Early Church, medieval or modern Catholic commentaries interpreting Luke 23:43 as an allusion to purgatory.

Recognize to whom you are commending yourself. You believe I am going to come, but even before I come, I am everywhere. That is why, although I am about to descend into hell, I have you with me in paradise today. You are with me and not entrusted to someone else. You see, my humility has come down to mortal human beings and to the dead, but my divinity has never departed from paradise.

St. Augustine A.D. 430
Source

I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, but, thou shalt be with me this day in the paradise. (Witham) In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest, joy and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment, and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord's going thither. (Challoner) The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the felicity of the saints, in Abraham's bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always present by his divinity. (St. Augustine) St. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven before all the patriarchs and prophets. St. Chrysostom thinks that paradise was immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind. (Tom. v. homil. 32.)

George Leo Haydock 1849
Source

That flaming, flashing sword was keeping Paradise safe. No one could open the gates that Christ closed. The thief was the first to enter with Christ. His great faith received the greatest of rewards. His faith in the kingdom did not depend on seeing Christ. He did not see him in his radiant glory or behold him looking down from heaven. He did not see the angels serving him. To put it plainly, he certainly did not see Christ walking about in freedom, but on a gibbet, drinking vinegar and crowned with thorns. He saw him fastened to the cross and heard him begging for help, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” … The cross of Christ is the key to paradise. The cross of Christ opened it. Has he not said to you, “The kingdom of heaven has been enduring violent assault, and the violent have been seizing it by force”? Does not the One on the cross cause the violence? There is nothing between the cross and paradise. The greatest of pains produces the greatest of rewards.

Jerome A.D. 420
Source

In the beginning, God shaped man, and man was an image of the Father and the Son. God said, “Let us make man to our image and likeness.” Again, when he wished to bring the thief into paradise, he immediately spoke the word and brought him in. Christ did not need to pray to do this, although he had kept all people after Adam from entering there. God put there the flaming sword to guard Paradise. By his authority, Christ opened paradise and brought in the thief.

St. John Chrysostom A.D. 407
Source

Or to speak more expressly, In respect of His body, He was in the grave, in respect of His soul, He was in hell, and with the thief in Paradise; but as God, on the throne with His Father and the Holy Spirit.

St. John of Damascus (on Luke 23:44) A.D. 749
Source

Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul — a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1021
Source

Apologies for the quick and dirty sources, but there are many, many more, and I can assure you there is no mention of Saint Dismas in purgatory from any of the greatest Catholic theologians across all of Christian history, when, as you've read in my previous post, they do mention the necessity of purgation after judgment, for those who still need it.

 

[Smashed & Slamed]

Well I hope those who do cut it out, and fast. Christ's words to the thief don't allow for a 40 day journey like some Egyptian Pharaoh on his way to the afterlife.

Honestly when I read about it I was like, "uh... can you guys just do purgatory that was more theological sound than all this".

I think that it's just stories with religious teachings escaping their context and leading to confusion.
While I see purgatory in it's self as a strange creation and it just feels as the product of Catholics finding life it's self as sinful.

I direct you to Jesus on this one, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."- Matthew 25:46.

I don't see why hell before the 2nd Judgement would be eternal. Especially as the eternal life refers to His Kingdom that will be here on His return.
There is an opposite idea, again not universal in Orthodoxy. That outside of the souls Jesus pulled out of hell when He died nobody else is known to be in Heaven, yet.

 

[Derrick]

I don't see the link between Saint Dismas and purgatory. Is it a protestant anti-Catholic talking point? Christ saved him in an extraordinary way when he said “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" no purgation required. Neither was Sheol mentioned, only paradise, where he entered with Christ.

Yeah my point was basically the guy seems to completely skip purgatory (assuming it is such a thing) by arriving in Heaven the same day.

Now that doesn't completely disprove the idea of purgatory as you could have it be a short stopover on the way to the afterlife (so long as it is quick enough to get the thief to Heaven before the end of the day) but it certainty hurts it.

You either have to accept that he (and he alone) got a pass straight to Heaven without stopping in purgatory, or his stopover (and by extension most time spent in purgatory) was a really quick one, or there is no purgatory at all.

I don't see the link between Saint Dismas and purgatory. Is it a protestant anti-Catholic talking point?

Yes. But I do want to clarify that I'm not "anti-Catholic" or anything like that. I'm not like those guys who believe Catholics and Orthodox are going to Hell (I'm not a Chick Tract) and I don't want to be mean or rude to them because of this theological difference.

I've said numerous time that, despite of our differences, I do think faithful Catholics are (despite what I perceive as a few theological inconsistencies) good Christians who I just disagree with in a few ways.

Especially as the eternal life refers to His Kingdom that will be here on His return.

His Kingdom is not of this Earth (John 18:36) you can enter it when you die (assuming you die with the saving faith of Christ) (John 3:16).

There is an opposite idea, again not universal in Orthodoxy.

The problem is, even if you stipulate that these ideas are not universal your church is still responsible for them so long as they tolerate them.

That outside of the souls Jesus pulled out of hell when He died nobody else is known to be in Heaven, yet.

"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise"- Luke 23:43.

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 193 - God walks into your soul with a silent step. God comes to you more than you go to Him. Never will his coming be what you expect, and yet never will is disappoint. The more you respond to his gentle pressure, the greater will be your freedom.

 

[Mad_Dog]

You either have to accept that he (and he alone) got a pass straight to Heaven without stopping in purgatory

I think there might be a misunderstanding on what happens at the particular judgment. Post-death purgatory isn't a requirement, it can (and ideally should) happen here while on Earth. The penitent thief isn't the only one to have gone straight to Heaven.
According to Catholic Theology, it goes something like this:

1. Physical Death → Separation of body and soul.
2. Particular Judgment →
   1. Souls of the Righteous enjoy the Beatific Vision (Heaven),
   2. Souls of the imperfect undergo purification (Purgatory),
   3. Souls of the condemned suffer in eternal separation from God (Hell).
3. Second Coming of Christ → End of the world, the resurrection of the dead, and glorification of the righteous.
4. General Judgment → Public judgment of all souls; reaffirmation of eternal destinies (Heaven or Hell).
5. New Heaven and New Earth → Eternal life for the righteous in their glorified bodies on the New Earth, eternal suffering for the wicked in Hell.

Spoiler: Eschatological 'Timeline'

1. Physical Death:

• Separation of Body and Soul: When a person dies, their body and soul are separated. The body begins to decompose, while the soul moves to face its immediate judgment. This is the only moment of separation between body and soul, as humans are meant to be united beings of both body and soul.
• Particular Judgment: Upon death, each person is judged by Christ in what is called the particular judgment. This judgment determines the eternal destiny of the soul based on the state of grace or mortal sin at death. There are three possible outcomes:
  • Heaven: Souls that die in a state of perfect grace and friendship with God immediately enter Heaven to enjoy the Beatific Vision (direct communion with God).
  • Purgatory: Souls who die in God’s grace but still need purification enter Purgatory to be purified of the temporal effects of sin. They are assured of Heaven once their purification is complete.
  • Hell: Souls who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin are condemned to Hell, where they will suffer the pains of eternal separation from God.

2. Life After Particular Judgment:

• Heaven (for the Righteous): Souls in Heaven experience the Beatific Vision, the ultimate and eternal union with God. They enjoy the fullness of happiness, though they await the resurrection of the body to complete their human nature.
• Purgatory (for the Imperfect): Souls in Purgatory undergo painful purification to cleanse them of their attachments to sin. They suffer in a spiritual sense, but their suffering is mixed with joy because they know they are destined for Heaven. Once purified, they transition to Heaven to join the saints.
• Hell (for the Condemned): The souls of the wicked suffer eternal torment in Hell, separated from God’s presence forever. Their punishment is both spiritual and will eventually be physical (after the resurrection of the body). Hell is an eternal state, not merely a temporary punishment.

3. The Second Coming of Christ (The Parousia):

• End of Time: At an unknown time in the future, Christ will return in glory to judge all mankind. This is called the Second Coming or the Parousia. The world as we know it will come to an end, and all human history will be brought to its conclusion.
• Resurrection of the Dead: At Christ’s return, the bodies of all people, both the righteous and the wicked, will be raised from the dead and reunited with their souls. This is called the general resurrection. These bodies will be transformed into glorified bodiesfor the righteous and bodies capable of suffering for the wicked.
  • The glorified bodies of the righteous will be perfect, no longer subject to pain, illness, or death.
  • The resurrected bodies of the wicked will also be eternal, but they will endure pain and suffering in Hell.

4. The General Judgment (Final Judgment):

• Universal Judgment: After the resurrection, all souls, righteous and wicked, will appear before Christ for the general judgment. This judgment differs from the particular judgment in that it will be public and universal, the whole of humanity will see the perfect justice and mercy of God as the destinies of every soul are revealed.
  • The general judgment does not change the outcome of the particular judgment. It reaffirms the eternal fate of each person based on their life and choices.
  • All of creation will see how God’s justice and mercy have worked throughout history, how each person’s life contributed to God’s plan, and how Christ’s victory over sin and death is perfectly fulfilled.
• Vindication of the Righteous: Those who are saved will be publicly vindicated and receive their eternal reward. They will be fully glorified in both body and soul, enjoying eternal happiness with God in the New Heaven and New Earth.
• Damnation of the Wicked: The damned will also be judged publicly and their rejection of God will be laid bare. They will be cast into the eternal fires of Hell, where both their souls and resurrected bodies will suffer the torments of separation from God.

5. The New Heaven and New Earth:

• Renewal of All Creation: After the final judgment, God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth (Revelation 21:1). This is the ultimate fulfillment of God’s plan for creation. The New Earth will be free from corruption, sin, death, and suffering, and will be a place of eternal peace and joy.
  • The New Heaven refers to the state of perfect union with God, enjoyed by all the righteous.
  • The New Earth is the transformed, glorified physical world where the resurrected bodies of the saints will dwell for eternity.
• Eternal Life on the New Earth: The righteous will live on the New Earth in their glorified bodies, perfectly united with God. There will be different degrees of glory based on each person’s capacity to enjoy God, but all will be perfectly happy. There will be no more death, pain, or suffering. Christ will reign as King, and the saints will share in His reign in perfect communion with Him and one another.

6. Eternity:

• Heaven and Hell: The states of Heaven and Hell will be eternal. The righteous will live forever in the joy of the New Heaven and New Earth, and the wicked will suffer eternally in Hell, cut off from God and all love.
• No More Purgatory: After the general judgment, there will be no need for Purgatory because all souls will have been judged and purified. The righteous will be in the New Heaven / New Earth and the wicked in Hell, each in their final and eternal state.

Yes. But I do want to clarify that I'm not "anti-Catholic" or anything like that

No, I know, you're in good faith and I appreciate that.

 

[Derrick]

I think there might be a misunderstanding on what happens at the particular judgment. Post-death purgatory isn't a requirement, it can (and ideally should) happen here while on Earth. The penitent thief isn't the only one to have gone straight to Heaven.

I take more umbrage with the doctrines regarding salvation for unbelievers (in the face of John 14:6) than purgatory. As I noted you can overcome the problem presented by the Thief on the cross going to Heaven the same day he died by squinting a bit and saying, "You know purgatory might not be that long". Or "He might have been sanctified, after all Christ himself gave him the word he was going to Heaven". I think the thief challenges the doctrines of Purgatory a bit but I don't think he outright destroys it.

No, I know, you're in good faith and I appreciate that.

I feel that, there are some people who take it to such an extreme it seems like borderline Anti-Catholic Nativism.

Chick Tracts, which are usually pretty measured, go completely off the rails when talking about Catholicism to the point it's no longer about theology, for example: Did you Know the Holocaust was a Catholic Plot?

 

[Paradox Mystic]

Spoiler: Huge flowchart for Catholic afterlife

Chick Tracts, which are usually pretty measured, go completely off the rails when talking about Catholicism to the point it's no longer about theology

A lot of Chick Tracts are very silly but in fairness a lot of research was way off in the 19th century and that ends up being the source of a lot of theological problems today due to a lot of people having broken bullshit detectors and people were trying to capitalize on the popularity and mystery of Egypt and the Middle East. The tract This was your life! is still considered a classic by a lot of people and personally I like his tract called Last Rites and his anti-Jehovah's Witness tract. Jack Chick was a big fan of KJVOnlyism but regardless of his bizarre beliefs he still ended up leading a lot of people to converting to Christianity.

 

[Derrick]

Spoiler: Huge flowchart for Catholic afterlife

Ver archivo adjunto 7635805

Spoiler: The Biblical View of the Afterlife

HAVE YOU LIVED A SIN FREE LIFE? (Romans 3:23)

HAVE YOU ACCEPTED CHRIST'S REDEMPTION FOR MANKIND ON THE CROSS? (Romans 10:9)

If Yes to either:
Heaven

If No:
Hell

A lot of Chick Tracts are very silly but in fairness a lot of research was way off in the 19th century and that ends up being the source of a lot of theological problems today due to a lot of people having broken bullshit detectors and people were trying to capitalize on the popularity and mystery of Egypt and the Middle East. The tract This was your life! is still considered a classic by a lot of people and personally I like his tract called Last Rites and his anti-Jehovah's Witness tract. Jack Chick was a big fan of KJVOnlyism but regardless of his bizarre beliefs he still ended up leading a lot of people to converting to Christianity.

I singled him out because his anti-Catholics were so far into 'la-la' land it'd be funny if he wasn't serious.

Spoiler: Chick-Tract

What you didn't know the Catholic Church assassinated JFK and Lincoln?

A lot of Anti-Catholic sentiment (not Chick's but a lot in general) was bound up in Nativist/Xenophobic sentiment from the last couple centuries, when so many Catholics were Irish and Italian it became easy for them to become the target of this racist rhetoric. I think it goes without saying that, despite my disagreements with the Catholic Church, I obviously reject such racist ideas.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

But I'm gonna cut through this and address the core issue. The Pope has no more authority than any other bishop. He isn't a king, he isn't the bishop of bishops or king of kings. He is at best the first bishop you talk to in a long line of bishops. And that's how he acted for much of church history until politics changed. The pope wasn't any more special at the great councils nor did his authority do much to stop the Paulicians or Iconoclasts the bishop of Constantinople was dealing with. A special man may be Pope but being Pope doesn't make one special. The Rock Peter built is not Rome, it's not the Papacy it is the Church. The institution, the Laying of the Hands that started with the Apostles and has continued thousands of years and all over the globe. A bishop in the middle of Siberia is just as much part of the Rock as the Pope. Rome is just a city and the Pope is just an honorific for the bishop in charge of Rome. You may disagree but you can go ask Peter himself once the time is due.

Saw on a sign in the Virginia countryside, day of Pentecost, "The church began on Pentecost, not in Rome."

Does Orthodoxy (I assume the answer is yes, but I'm not that familiar) understand the Church to be specifically the worldly institution - the chain of ritual woo and secret handshakes that binds priest to priest - or is it understood to be the broader idea of the Christian community and its various religious institutions? As I think about it, the Protestant understanding of The Church (TM) is actually a lot like the Muslim Ummah.

I also assume Orthodoxy (correct me if I'm wrong!), like Catholicism, considers itself an unbroken chain of authority from the Apostles (as opposed to a creation of Constantine. (Protestants generally see Constantine's church as some bullshit, that there were people with their various churches - still part of that Christian community - fucking around and then the state came in and imposed a single structure, and since it got a state monopoly it was able to bully the other sects into irrelevance).

 

[Paradox Mystic]

People usually only rant about Constantine if they're a conspiracy theorist who thinks the Trinity was invented at the Council of Nicea, it overlaps with the trail of blood theory some Baptists believe. Conservative Lutherans and Anglicans for example wouldn't attack Nicea 1.

 

[23iwakura23]

My catholic coreligionists, and my protestant brothers, separated by the tension of history and doctrine. Orthodox who love god:

Good friends, let's not fight about any of these things we're easily made to fight about. We love christ, and we have a general direction as to how a person ought behave. And we all live in a world opposed to religious life and good morals. Let's not tear down each other arguing when we live in a world that wants to devour all of us. Let's be undevourable all together!

 

[Chicha Drinker]

My catholic coreligionists, and my protestant brothers, separated by the tension of history and doctrine. Orthodox who love god:

Good friends, let's not fight about any of these things we're easily made to fight about. We love christ, and we have a general direction as to how a person ought behave. And we all live in a world opposed to religious life and good morals. Let's not tear down each other arguing when we live in a world that wants to devour all of us. Let's be undevourable all together!

Ive been impressed with the cordial nature between Derrick and the Cathys here

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 194 - Most of us do not like to look inside ourselves for the same reason we don't like to open a letter that has bad news.

 

[Skyline Enthusiast]

I don't know if this post belongs here but i couldn't find a better place: I went to church for the first time in a long time. It was a small Lutheran church on the other side of town. It was a nice experience.

 

[Mad_Dog]

I don't know if this post belongs here but i couldn't find a better place: I went to church for the first time in a long time. It was a small Lutheran church on the other side of town. It was a nice experience.

You did good, I'm proud of you, brother.

 

[Thomas Talus]

Dedicated to those, in and out of the thread, whom the cap fits.

 

[Church Lurker]

Random thought I decided to share here, but I'm thinking about trying to limit to only viewing this thread and consuming Catholic/Christian only content on Sundays to further my relationship with God. I just feel I waste too much of my time on Sunday browsing other threads here and just losing track of time that should be Gods.

Quick follow up to this post: The fist two Sundays went well, but the following weeks didn't go as well, I start off strong and then gave up in the evening. Today went better, though I gave into the sin of lust, but please pray fro me that my continuation of this discipline continues to grow.

 

[Mad_Dog]

Dedicated to those, in and out of the thread, whom the cap fits.

WTF they said they wouldn't publish my real name

Quick follow up to this post: The fist two Sundays went well, but the following weeks didn't go as well, I start off strong and then gave up in the evening. Today went better, though I gave into the sin of lust, but please pray fro me that my continuation of this discipline continues to grow.

Classic. Set-backs are part of the journey. Imagine how valuable your soul must be for Satan to tirelessly pursue it, and the King to lay down his own life for it. If the situation was hopeless, the devil would have given up by now.
Go to confession, and take it one step at a time. One Sunday a month in church is better than zero. Then, when you can do two, do that. And keep going until you can keep a steady pace. Soon you will be waiting impatiently for the next Sunday to come just so you can go to church.

0:17

 

[Derrick]

Dedicated to those, in and out of the thread, whom the cap fits.

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment. This is, after all, a thread for theology, if we all agreed to not question anything about the others beliefs it might get rather dull.

On the other hand I understand where you're coming from. People's Religions are rather sacred to them, and as I noted you can forcefully justify or rectify any belief you want with the Bible if you try hard enough, hence why we have a million and one denominations (and apologetic sites for them all). As such trying to change someone's view on a theological issue is rather futile.

At the same point in time I personally find it important to have these kind of talks because it allows me to challenge check my blind spots on my own beliefs, and to modify them when it seems I am in error.

 

[Big Miss Steak]

I've heard some interpretations of the Fall in Genesis 3 that I am not sure I swallow. In my Southern Baptist upbringing, we were taught the Fall of course but we didn't dig super deep into it.

Spoiler: Genesis 3: 1- 20, NIV

(1) Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

(2) The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, (3) but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

(4) “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. (5) “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

(6) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. (7) Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

(8) Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (9) But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

(10) He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

(11) And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

(12) The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

(13) Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

(14) So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
(15) And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
(16) To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
(17) To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
(18) It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
(19) By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
(20) Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

The things I was taught that I have discarded or am currently wrestling with, in addition to positions I have recently been exposed to:

1. That the serpent was a literal snake and the curse is why snakes crawl on their bellies. There are many other animals that crawl on their bellies and weren't in the curse. "The serpent" instead of "a serpent" also implies that it was a specific entity - Satan. But then what does the curse mean when it says he will "crawl on his belly?" That he will be cursed to roam the earth? What does "eating dust" mean?
2. That Eve tricked Adam. This is clearly not the case, because Adam was right next to her. Did the serpent also deceive him, and he just blamed Eve? Or did he knowingly let her sin?
3. That Adam's sin was listening to his wife. This is just sexism. Adam's sin was following Eve's suggestion to sin, not just listening to her.
4. That Eve's deception by the serpent shows women are more prone to being seduced by sin or confused by the enemy; this is used to justify the position that women shouldn't be spiritual teachers/need to be spiritually led by men.
5. Was Adam's sin worse than Eve's because he had a personal relationship with God?
6. That Adam's punishment is worse than Eve's. I do believe this to be the case; his punishment includes mortality. This is also used to justify the stance that men are wiser than women and hold more responsibility. But couldn't you also say Adam's punishment was worse because he had a personal relationship with God, whereas it doesn't seem like Eve had even spoken to God yet?