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Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante
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Snake oil salesmen.
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- 27 de Jul, 2022
I agree with @Cassius Crayfish, that there is genuinely something physically wrong with Copeland, like a slightly less degenerated version of George Soros in my eyes.
Key the Metal Shitposter
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- 31 de Mar, 2021
"I'm norse pagan and I'll stay norse pagan. I find it more respectable to remain what you were born into instead of..."
-8th century German
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- 10 de Abr, 2022
Martin Luther did nothing wrong
Derrick
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- 15 de Mar, 2024
Sure, if my wife and I were Adam and Eve and there were literally no other humans alive perhaps we would mass produce children like we're a factory to populate the Earth.
If you think you can afford 6 kids, and can keep up with them, be my guest. For me, one requires enough time, attention, and care I can't imagine having more.
I disagree, I disagree quite strongly in fact. As humans we should be constantly investigating and challenging what we believe, changing our beliefs whenever we encounter new information that disproves them. Today I am a non-denominational Christian, in ten years time I could be a Catholic, a Muslim, or even an Atheist, depending on what new information I am presented with, if somebody shows me something that completely vindicates one side I'm not going to stick my head in the sand over it.
Chicha Drinker
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- 2 de Mayo, 2025
I could make a response but thats leaving the topic of theology and entering racism so ill hold off. (Working on number 2 tho)
Derrick
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I'm sorry to hear your thinking that (though I'm glad you held off on it). As Christians we should eschew all forms of Racism (Galatians 3:28 ) and hatred towards our fellow man (1st John 4:20). Remember Christ died for all and as a result all Christians (Hebrews 10:10), regardless of background, are worthy or his love, and if all are worthy of his loves then who are we to deny it to another Christian?
Chicha Drinker
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Less so racism in the hatred sense, more so a developed sense of personal race and general neutrality toward others, following observed behavior patterns. since even with behavior patterns being what they are, the human element means there are those who can break the mold and be exceptional. These views have labeled me as racist.
Of course, all fll short of the glory of God, and all will be judged in the end, we truly all are in the same boat
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- 24 de Jul, 2024
That's not what you were talking about. You said you didn't undestand the desire to have many children. I am telling you where the desire comes from. We, not just the first humans, were created with the desire to fill the earth and subdue it.
While I don't disagree with the principal, I think it it worth saying that there is no chance that new information is likely to presented that would make Islam the truth. And, furthermore, that if we really can say with confidence that Jesus is Lord of all, then that is true across time - nothing in the past or future can or will happen that makes that untrue.
I don't think even Luther would agree with that. But he certainly did a very important thing right: he understood how God justifies us through his free gift of grace, and brought that good news to the masses for them to hear, repent, and believe for their salvation.
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Derrick
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Theres some truth to that, but if, when debating with non-Christians we expect them to be open to converting, how could we not extend the same willingness back to them? As humans we should after all seek out truth, and if some new piece of information is irrefutable proof against our faith we'd be foolish not heed it.
I'd argue theres not much difference between hatred and "a sense of personal race".
Regardless I would just remind you that, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".- Galatians 3:28. As Christians we have no room for such ideals of 'in-group' and 'out-group', the only 'in-group' we should be concerned with is "Christ follower" or not. And if they are genuine Christ followers the rest will take care of itself.
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Let's read the official position of the Catholic Chruch, shall we?
In
Part 3: Life in Christ
Section 1: Man's Vocation — Life in the Spirit
Chapter 3: God's Salvation: Law and Grace
Article 2: Grace and Justification (§1987 - 2029)
of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read:
"Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life." - CCC 1996
Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
"The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man." - CCC 1989
Mt 4:17. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1528.
"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life" - CCC 1992
Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529. Rom 3:21-26.
Let's go back a little further, to the 1566 Catechism of the Council of Trent:
"For as the eye, however perfect, cannot see without the aid of light, so no man, unless he be first illumined by the grace of God, however perfect his observance of the law by the force of nature, can in any way acquire the grace of justification."
(Part III, Chapter IX, On the First Commandment)
Was it worth it, Martin?
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Bob McLearning
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Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
There's not a human being on the face of the earth who actually displays any of those traits with any consistency.
You certainly don't. Just look in the mirror. Nor do any of your family members. Nor do any of your friends. Nor do any of the human beings on the face of the earth. The "saved" are indistinguishable from the "perishing," in terms of their life choices and behaviors.
If Christianity actually worked, meaning the Spirit of God actually lived inside of you and remade you into a new creation, then you would be better than you are. And Christians in general would be better than they are. But every thought in the Christian's heart is wicked continually, as is true for all non-Christians. Your fake three-headed God doesn't actually make any of you holy, yet if your doctrine of the Trinity and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were actually true, then you would be holy. Yet you aren't. And you never will be.
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- 4 de Feb, 2018
Why can't they complain? The argument is that only God can forgive sins, not the institution of the Church.
Likewise, travesties like indulgences, simony, Albigensian/Hussite genocides, Medici/Borgia Papacies did in fact happen. Theoretically the doctrine is supposed to be unchanging, but it clearly has changed - whether that be how people understand it or how it is practiced.
Backing the nobility over the masses of people who believed in his message during the German Peasant War was pretty messed up. Those peasants had valid grievances.
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- 24 de Jul, 2024
Yeah, he forced Rome to use the same language because it's Biblical, even though what they mean by that language is not exactly the same as what he or the other Reformers or the early church mean by it. Nevertheless, it was an improvement - so yeah, it was worth it.
This is true.
This is not true.
The way you are writing makes it seem as though you hold God personally responsible for something that has happened in your life at the hands of someone calling themselves a Christian.
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- 17 de Abr, 2023
Correct, I am a sinner, and so is every Christian on earth, including the Pope. The Church isn't a museum for perfect saints, it's a hospital for sinners: "Jesus said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”" – Matt 9:12-13
So, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn't give us immediate and effortless perfection, that's not what Christ or His Church have ever taught. Quite the contrary, sanctification is a lifelong process of growing in holiness. Just because we are justified, that doesn't mean the tendency to sin (concupiscence), magically disappears. Christian life is an ongoing battle, (Ephesians 6:12), where we must cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit to overcome this concupiscence and grow in virtue. This is very, very hard. Especially in our modern world.
So, the Holy Spirit works with our wounded human nature to heal and elevate it. Every time we sin, it is not because the Holy Spirit has failed, but because we have failed to cooperate with the grace He has offered us. And the Church holds up thousands of examples of those who have successfully cooperated with the Holy Spirit: the Saints.
Look at St. Francis of Assisi, who radiated a supernatural love for all creation. Look at St. Maximilian Kolbe, who showed the ultimate self-control and love by volunteering to die for another man in Auschwitz. Look at St. Thérèse of Lisieux, who found immense joy and peace in the smallest acts of faithfulness.
They are the proof that with heroic cooperation with God's grace, holiness is possible. The rest of us are simply still under construction. Remember, the true measure of the faith is not the absence of sin, but the repentance that follows it. Don't stay black-pilled brother, look at the lives of our many great Saints rather than the wretched lives of the countless sinner who roam the earth.
True, fundamentally, only God can forgive sins. But, in His wisdom, God chose to delegate His authority to men to act as His instruments on earth. Just after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared to His Apostles and said: 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.' – John 20:21-23
And, while the Church is a divine institution, the Mystical Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ, she is also composed of sinners. Our Lord Himself predicted this when he compared the Kingdom of Heaven to a net that catches fish of every kind, good and bad (Matthew 13:47-50), and to a field with both wheat and weeds growing together until the harvest (Matthew 13:24-30).
The sins of popes like the Borgias, or the abuses of bishops who sold indulgences, are a scandal and a grave stain. They're a betrayal of their sacred office. But, the sinfulness of the men doesn't cancel the divine nature of the office they hold. A corrupt judge doesn't invalidate the Constitution. A bad president doesn't nullify the presidency. The Church has survived centuries of attack both from the outside and corruption from within is probably, this is probably one of the strongest arguments for her divine protection. No other institution can make that claim.
If God founded His Church on earth, wouldn't the enemy do everything in his power to destroy it from within and from without, through schism and spreading falsehood and misinformation about it? No other Church gets attacked like the Catholic Church does, there's a reason for that.
This leads us to our next point, confusion about indulgences. There is a common mistake of confusing three distinct things: Dogma, Discipline, and Development. This is easily corrected with a 2-second Google search, but here's the gist of it:
- Dogma is the divinely revealed truth of the Faith (e.g., the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence, the authority to forgive sins). This is unchangeable and infallible.
- Discipline are the practical rules and regulations of the Church (e.g., how indulgences are administered, the requirement of priestly celibacy in the Latin Rite, the laws of fasting). These are man-made and can and do change over time to suit the needs of the faithful.
- Development of Doctrine is that our understanding of the unchanging Dogma can deepen and become more clearly articulated over time, without the Dogma itself changing.
The correction of a sinful practice is not a change in doctrine, it is a purification of practice in service of the unchanging doctrine.
What language did the Church use before? Please provide quotes and sources. You'll be hard-pressed to find any Magisterial document claiming justification isn't from Grace.
Why is what Martin and his little reformer friends "mean by that language" important?
And please quote and source the Church Fathers you vague-post about to substantiate your point.
I did, so it's the very least you can do after making such bold claims.
Chicha Drinker
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- 2 de Mayo, 2025
You seem to have a lack of underatanding relating to free will and how it works in the bible, what is your religious background in Christianity (what denom, how long, etc)? Cassius is 100% right, it sounds like you were fed poor theology and/or were personally wronged by a Christian during your past experience, so it all fell apart later. If that is the case then im sorry.
Unfortunately, poor theology has been the sand that many people trust pastors to build their houses upon, and we all know how that goes. 90% of rhe ex-christians i talk to say in no uncertain terms that they were promised something unbiblical by a chariamatic leader, who was apathetic to their problems when things inevitably fell apart.
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- 4 de Feb, 2018
Shintoism, the Orthodox Church, the Coptics, Ethiopian Church, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism, and even the many groups that makeup Hinduism are just as old or older and have also survived persecution. The Christian churches mentioned here can even claim that they have changed less than Catholicism and have obviously faced more persecution (oftentimes by Catholics).
The counter reformation only came about after the Church's started wars that killed tens of millions of people. It had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of corruption and even then has since remained a force for the elites, backing elitist authoritarian (and even fascist) governments and only putting a bandaid on poverty.
The entirety of the church engaged in these practices for centuries. Likewise, secular positions like presidencies and constitutions are basically invalidated all of the time. The Weimar constitution was only ended in 1946, but it obviously lost its meaning long before then.
The reason is that it's the biggest Church. It acquired this position through political alliances that allowed it to violently crush any opposition. It committed what many historians view as the first ideological genocides. Most criticism of the church is focused on this. The Church eventually lost most of its political power, but this current toothless institution is a recent development.