Souls Thread: Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Bloodborne

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I would also object to the notion that Japanese people know Gnosticism
When the Japanese deign to include Christian concepts at all, its usually heavily influenced by Gnostic beliefs rather than real Christianity. See, for example, Shin Megami Tensei, whose version of Yahweh is much closer to the Demiurge than the Christian idea of God, and SMT even included actual Gnostic figures, concepts, and beings as demons.
 
DS2's whole deal is just Buddhism, though. The only way it could have been more blatant would have been to throw around the word reincarnation everywhere. See Agadyne's set:



DS1 worked because everything was vague. Japanese developers have a bad habit of just making everything look like some kind of Buddhist or Gnostic allegory the more time you give them to think about their bullshit.
To me, uncertainty is what makes the mechanics of the world in DS1 interesting. There is comfort in an endless cycle that keeps reiterating on the same idea, but things coming to an end is troubling and mysterious, that is where you find genuine humanity in a story.
As I understand it (so don't quote me on this), the different Ages are not absolutes. Dark is dominant during its age, but there are still embers of the First Flame somewhere. Conversely, during the Age of Fire, Darkness is always lurking. Frampt and Kaathe care because it's an ongoing power struggle.
I think an ongoing power struggle isn't as compelling as the idea of denial and acceptance. Frampt and the gods are in denial that the world is coming to an end, and Kaathe wants the abyss to take over, he's accepted the fate of the world. I think that idea is more human, more interesting than just "eh don't worry the fire always comes back". Their conflict is interesting because of whatever nefarious ulterior motive they actually have, but if the flame can't actually go out then it's basically for nothing. I don't think a yin yang thing should apply to them because they are both clearly corrupt in some way.

Neither side really offers a "good ending" because there is no good ending for Lordran. Lordran faces a tragic future and that's what makes it beautiful, but you continue this story beyond the confines of what was established and it ruins the mystique. There are good ideas that I like in 2 and 3 but I think they should have just told different stories. Let Dark Souls 1 rest on its laurels.
 
There is comfort in an endless cycle that keeps reiterating on the same idea,
There is no alternation of ages, that's just DS2 butchering DS1's plot. DS3 operates on the age of fire never having ended after DS1, and that the age ending is a world annihilating calamity that will ruin all civilization from which there's no coming back from, same as DS1. The Firekeeper makes 1 comment about how she sees hints of a fire in the darkness, but that is implicitly just about the world itself having a glimmer of hope in the future way after everyone has died horribly.
I think an ongoing power struggle isn't as compelling as the idea of denial and acceptance.
The story in DS1 isn't this meme shit about gods being le bad. The whole thing is about how the good of the world requires personal sacrifice to be upheld, which humans have the capacity of either doing or completely fucking up due to their selfishness. The humans' soul being the "dark soul", also known as "humanity" and it having the potential to result in nightmarish shit if someone throws too big a hissyfit (Manus) is about as subtle as a brick.

The first flame would never go out, ever, if it is provided the necessary fuel. It's literally just a fire. The bad shit in the games is happening because it's running out of fuel, not because it's been going on too long and feels tired or some other retarded bullshit.

DS3's story is that everyone has collectively become so jaded, corrupt and shortsighted nobody is willing to do the right thing anymore and world is going through the apocalypse as a result.
 
And then Ringed City fucks it all up with an 11th hour twist of where the Darksign actually came from, that was basically never hinted at anywhere previously.

That kind of bullshit is why DLC is sometimes a bad idea.
 
The story in DS1 isn't this meme shit about gods being le bad. The whole thing is about how the good of the world requires personal sacrifice to be upheld, which humans have the capacity of either doing or completely fucking up due to their selfishness. The humans' soul being the "dark soul", also known as "humanity" and it having the potential to result in nightmarish shit if someone throws too big a hissyfit (Manus) is about as subtle as a brick.
See I don't think that's true, at no point are you told by anyone in DS1 what linking the fire actually means. The only hint you're given that it might be a negative thing are the fire keepers, all of which are hideously disfigured and condemned to watch over their respective shrines. You're told you'll succeed Gwyn but when you finally meet him he's a shell of a man and he can't even conjure lightning anymore. It's obvious Frampt isn't telling you the whole truth which is why people tend to side with Kaathe. Energy is finite and the age of fire is unsustainable, which is why the idea of the cycle is fucking retarded.

In my opinion the best character in the original souls series is Hawkeye Gough, because he decides to look inward and work on himself instead of trying to save Artorias or fight Kalameet. He still enjoys hunting dragons and fighting but he admits that time in his life is over. He doesn't lose hope he just decides to better himself and enjoy what few joys there are in life, something most of his compatriots failed to do. He is a relic of another time but unlike Gwyn he accepts what will be.
 
And then Ringed City fucks it all up with an 11th hour twist of where the Darksign actually came from, that was basically never hinted at anywhere previously.
It's meant to expand on Gwyn's relationship with the Furtive Pygmy and humanity in general (which is connected to the dark). It's not a retcon, if that's what you're implying. It's tying up loose ends.

It's also meant to further illustrate how Gwyn and the gods have built everything on lies, how far he was willing to go to keep a lid on his fuckup, and to keep anyone who could challenge him in check. The irony is that, thanks to Filianore, the place he specifically created to be out of sight and out of mind became the last place to remain relatively unscathed by the decay of the world.

But that's not the main reason you're wrong...
That kind of bullshit is why DLC is sometimes a bad idea.
It contains the most boner-inducing final boss of all time. Shut your fucking mouth, little baby child.
 
It's meant to expand on Gwyn's relationship with the Furtive Pygmy and humanity in general (which is connected to the dark). It's not a retcon, if that's what you're implying. It's tying up loose ends.
Of course it's not technically a retcon, Dark Souls "lore" is too vague for that on purpose. Shin Megami Tensei expansions do the exact same thing.
 
t's obvious Frampt isn't telling you the whole truth which is why people tend to side with Kaathe.

It is equally obvious that Frampt and Kaathe are on the same side. Besides the fact that we literally see them together, consider that Kaathe never even appears before you, unless you are total dark-obsessed murderous edgelord, who is not likely to go on a world-saving quest. Note that every other NPC who wanted you to do some radical shit resulting in an alternate ending in every other From game appeared in a spot where he/she was diffucult-to-impossible to miss. (Even if conditions for the ending itself were arcane.) Kaathe aslo spun a lot of counterfactual lies, which were obvious even back then, before we learned that extinction of the First Flame actually means total end of the world, like Gwyn ever feeling any sort of animosity towards humans (despite, you know, splitting his own soul to give them gifts)

Basically in DS1 you're being manipulated by the serpents for unknown ends either way, and there is no good ending. Perhaps From did not want a repeat of DeS, where, despite the grim darkness of the world, the ending was a clear-cut choice between good and evil.
 
Kaathe aslo spun a lot of counterfactual lies, which were obvious even back then, before we learned that extinction of the First Flame actually means total end of the world, like Gwyn ever feeling any sort of animosity towards humans (despite, you know, splitting his own soul to give them gifts)
But this is what I mean as well. Nothing in DS1 implies much of the stuff about the gods in DS3, and especially not anything in Ringed City. It's not so much a retcon as a bunch of asspulls.
 
Perhaps From did not want a repeat of DeS, where, despite the grim darkness of the world, the ending was a clear-cut choice between good and evil.
If there's anything truly evil you can do in DS1, it's choosing to fight Priscilla. She did nothing wrong, was harming nobody, isn't aggressive towards you, and is just too cute.

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Why is she the "abomination" who has "no place in this world", when she exists because Seath is a bitter incel nerd who couldn't reproduce without human sex slaves?
 
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Why is she the "abomination" who has "no place in this world", when she exists because Seath is a bitter incel nerd who couldn't reproduce without human sex slaves?
Because sad waifubait. Next question.

Though in actuality the thing that makes her an abomination is the Lifehunt power. Nothing about being half-dragon specifically, if I recall.

As an aside, Dark Souls should have ended at 2. Pre-Scholar 2, specifically.
 
As an aside, Dark Souls should have ended at 2. Pre-Scholar 2, specifically.
You're just full of takes hotter than the Old Iron King's asscrack today, aren't you?

I didn't think DS2 was bad, mind you, but can tell that it's B Team work. For a game called Dark Souls, its color pallet is garishly bright, a la MW2.

And ADP is not only utterly retarded, but unfair. You basically have to put points into it to get rid of input lag (thus taking away from your desired build). Without it, even my DEX-built swordsman had the reflexes of a turtle.

If there was ever a case of so-called "artificial difficulty", that is it.
 
See I don't think that's true, at no point are you told by anyone in DS1 what linking the fire actually means.
That's because it's exactly what the name implies. There is no subtlety or subtext. The person "linking" bounds themselves to the fire and burns to "cinder". Again, people way overthink this stuff. Pretty much everything Frampt says is straight exposition. It's meant to be self-explanatory, but it seems people don't realize that.

The Japanese name for "Lord of Cinder" is, I shit you not, "King of the Firewood". It's that overt. The person becomes the firewood feeding the fire.
The only hint you're given that it might be a negative thing are the fire keepers, all of which are hideously disfigured and condemned to watch over their respective shrines.
You are repeatedly told that the sun itself and all manner of positive miracles are derived from either the first flame or its adherents. Conversely, everything to do with dark is shown to suck and is a magnet for misery, psychopaths and disaster. Four Kings, Darkwraiths, Kaathe, New Londo, Abyss, Oolacile. The game pretty much screams in your face that first flame = good (including being able to see at all) and that dark = corrupt (and a dreary shithole where you can't see).

There's more story behind the scenes with eg. bright Anor Londo being a facade since there was a schizm between the gods and it's mostly abandoned, but that's to round out the world itself and to stick to the somber, dark fantasy tone of the game.
people tend to side with Kaathe.
Which is fucking dumb, and is a scathing indictment on people's basic ability to use their eyes. He's presented as the most evil character in literally every way possible visually and narratively. His whole speech is nothing but him tempting you with the idea of ruling the world as a "Dark Lord", and if you wanna talk about shit that never gets any explanation whatsoever, that's fucking it.

I mean, he seethes about Gwyn trying to contain the dark, as you are in the middle of the infinite pit of darkness that has destroyed the city above you. After you killed 4 humans that turned into monsters thanks to the Abyss. And then he asks you if you want to join his cult of soul stealing mass murderers.

Just compare the presentation of the two serpents:
Kaathe appears shrouded in darkness, a scary monster with burning red eyes, looking evil as fuck, not a single bit of levity or personality besides being angry and vindictive, who runs a death cult.
Frampt is an ugly monster in bright sunlight who falls asleep like a grandpa and snores loudly, has people talking about how he stinks, and makes happy (but disgusting) noises when you bring him the lordvessel. He also doubles as a trash can. He does silly shit, even hanging upside down in the altar that results in his dangly mustache thing to... dangle. But upside down.

Like, the game is literally doing everything short of just having text flash on screen telling you which is evil and which is just a boob.
Energy is finite and the age of fire is unsustainable, which is why the idea of the cycle is fucking retarded.
Nope. Not a single thing in DS1 or 3 says it can't be linked in perpetuity, and in fact, the tragedy of the story is meant to be that the world goes to shit because it is human nature to just fuck everything up eventually through selfishness. DS3's story is specifically about how the world has become so evil and corrupt that there's nobody to rise to the challenge anymore while the former heroes see that their sacrifices were made pointless by the corrupt state of the world.

Obviously, there's certain individuals in the story that did more than anybody to fuck things up completely, eg. Lothric, but that is still just meant to be the product of a rotten world. And in general there's a cynical aspect about how individual sacrifice is undermined by the rest of the world being shit and the sacrifice itself is too heavy to demand from the person making it.

The cycle shit is DS2 being DS2 and fucking up the basic story completely.
In my opinion the best character in the original souls series is Hawkeye Gough, because he decides to look inward and work on himself instead of trying to save Artorias or fight Kalameet. He still enjoys hunting dragons and fighting but he admits that time in his life is over. He doesn't lose hope he just decides to better himself and enjoy what few joys there are in life, something most of his compatriots failed to do. He is a relic of another time but unlike Gwyn he accepts what will be.
Again, Kaathe is literally the most overtly villanous character who says nothing insightful. He's just seething about Gwyn and tempting you with the thought of ruling the world. This whole "bro Gwyn needs to just accept he lost bro" take relies on taking everything Kaathe says as 100% earnest truth while ignoring literally everything else in the game, including the way Kaathe himself is presented narratively and visually (aka just a salty evil asshole).
It is equally obvious that Frampt and Kaathe are on the same side.
Not really. It more just seems that Frampt was revealed to have been serving Gwyn because he was the strongest, and switches sides when you defeat him.
Frampt tells you to piss off if you side with Kaathe and tells you you will fail. Their goals are also completely mutually exclusive. Kaathe wants to spread dark, strengthening the first flame keeps dark at bay.
It's also meant to further illustrate how Gwyn and the gods have built everything on lies, how far he was willing to go to keep a lid on his fuckup, and to keep anyone who could challenge him in check.
...no? See above, this is retrofitting DS3 to fit with only what Kaathe said, which ignores pretty much the entirety of both games. Everything Gwyn did is shown to just be to contain the abyss/dark, which is unequivocally shown to be fuck awful and a potentially world ending disaster in every iteration it shows up in DS1&3. It even destroyed the Ringed City, lol.

For example, the seal of fire on the Ringed Knights is because their weapons, armor and even their cloth is seeping with abyss, meaning the armor pieces themselves could go full Manus. Remember, the Dragonslayer Armour came to life just because it got filled up with some abyss juice from pilgrim butterflies.

This whole thing about "bro Gwyn just taking out his rivals" is so baseless and wrong, because quite literally everything he does in the games is just to stop the dark from spreading, because it's bad. The pygmies were locked away because their dark soul is a disaster waiting to happen, case in point when Gael eats it, he turns OP and loses his mind. Manus, who most assuredly was a pygmy in possession of an original piece of the dark soul, creates an abyss that destroys a city because he was distraught after his pendant went missing. A. Fuckin. Pendant.

Also, if Gwyn was as evil as everyone pretends he was, he'd have 0 qualms killing every human and pygmy. Y'know, instead of splitting pieces of his own soul and giving it to worthy humans (who then betray him. Because the unsubtle theme of the games is still, humanity = selfish shits). He's by no means meant to be a saint, but he is meant to be a morally righteous warrior king who's downfall is tragic. Plin Plin Plon. (And everything he does to contain the abyss is shown to be 100% in the right, even if it sucks to be on the receiving end of it.)
Why is she the "abomination" who has "no place in this world", when she exists because Seath is a bitter incel nerd who couldn't reproduce without human sex slaves?
Priscilla is a feared because of her lifehunt shit. "Lifehunt" makes her the "anthitesis of life". It's not being subtle. Apparently it's more obvious in Japanese, but she is meant to be a bastard child too, born out of wedlock. The whole human sex slave/experiment shit is really shoddy fanfiction. She's just a "normal" half-dragon, which was translated weirdly into crossbreed. The "abomination" specifically hinting at Priscilla may be a trannylation thing too, as the Japanese text seems to just generally describe the doll as something that leads abominations to the painting, and there's quite a few fucked up things in that painting.

Because Ariamis is almost entirely a Velka themed area, it is presumed that Seath and Velka are Priscilla's parents. Which is messed up because Velka is also suspected of being Gwyn's wife, and Priscilla is Gwyndolin's mother. And Seath may have (definitely) fucked Gwynevere.

Gwyn and Seath be fuckin' eachother's hos.
 
Nope. Not a single thing in DS1 or 3 says it can't be linked in perpetuity, and in fact, the tragedy of the story is meant to be that the world goes to shit because it is human nature to just fuck everything up eventually through selfishness.
Post is a mixed bag so I'm gonna focus on this.
In DS1 it is established that the most powerful beings in Lordran are the Lords since they literally govern light, life, darkness and death. With Seathe and the Four Kings being in contention thanks to having parts of Gwyn's soul. The only way to link the fire is to kill them and open the path to the Kiln, then offer your body as kindling.

How do you do that again after they're all dead? And what's more, who is left to use as energy after the lords and the chosen undead are gone? Anor Londo is empty, the dragons are either dead or so weak they've become basic enemies, the world is full of undead and demons. I don't doubt another undead could make it to the kiln and light the fire but they'd have to get as strong as the chosen undead was with the lord souls and there's no lords left. Your player character is THE Chosen Undead, not A chosen undead, you're the only person who's managed to make it as far as the Kiln.

DS3 did at least one thing right in not making new Lord souls, instead the lords of Cinder take the place of the original Lords. To me that implies that the first flame doesn't have enough energy to create new versions of Nito, Gwyn, the witches, or Manus. I reiterate, energy is finite, and within the confines of DS1, the age of fire is unsustainable.
 
Which is fucking dumb, and is a scathing indictment on people's basic ability to use their eyes. He's presented as the most evil character in literally every way possible visually and narratively. His whole speech is nothing but him tempting you with the idea of ruling the world as a "Dark Lord", and if you wanna talk about shit that never gets any explanation whatsoever, that's fucking it.
Not really. It more just seems that Frampt was revealed to have been serving Gwyn because he was the strongest, and switches sides when you defeat him.
Frampt tells you to piss off if you side with Kaathe and tells you you will fail. Their goals are also completely mutually exclusive. Kaathe wants to spread dark, strengthening the first flame keeps dark at bay.
The problem with this is, if Frampt and Kaathe were really enemies, and Frampt was as intensely against Kaathe as you claim, he would never bow down before eh Dark Lord, or be shown with Kaathe in the Dark Lord ending. Its clear in hindsight that they are both, in fact, working together, both are untrustworthy, and more than likely, the primordial serpents were hedging their bets to be on the correct side, no matter what the chosen undead chose.
 
The only way to link the fire is to kill them and open the path to the Kiln, then offer your body as kindling.
Game literally just says that you need "powerful souls" to match Gwyn's. If you want to take it to the brutally retarded conclusion, you really would just need to grind a lot of souls (which is sth DS2 did, only in a completely random, meaningless place because DS2 is retarded nonsense). Wouldn't make for much a game though, hence the hunt for big, lore significant bosses and their souls. You don't even use the souls in the kiln, they get wasted on the lordvessel, which is a glorified key to a door.

Once he's out, the next time the necessary souls would just have to match the Chosen Undead. Or maybe it's not even needed after it, and it was some weird defensive mechanism to protect the first flame by Gwyn. Food for thought: did Gwyn need to use the Lordvessel to enter the kiln? If he did, who the fuck's soul did he use? Can't have used his own, cause he wouldn't have a soul left. Was there even a kiln before Gwyn? The First Flame is in a cave in the intro. The kiln, the altar, the shrine, those were probably all made by him. And the door to the kiln stays open even after the fire goes out in the dark ending.

Imagine if the door closed because the fire went out. What an ending that would be.
I reiterate, energy is finite, and within the confines of DS1, the age of fire is unsustainable.
It's explicitly not. The dark soul for example, increases in strength over time and starts expontentially growing in size and power in instances where the owner has extreme emotional distress, resulting in an Abyss. Hello Manus. The more people there are the more souls there are.
he would never bow down before eh Dark Lord, or be shown with Kaathe in the Dark Lord ending.
You are literally replying to the part the explains this lmao. He switches sides because he lost and you have been proven to be stronger than (the burnt out husk of) Gwyn.

They're clearly not working together, because their goals are mutually exclusive and the fact that Gwyn has been busy burning to shit for a 1000 years straight before you kill him (Frampt says the lordvessel hasn't been brought to him for that amount of time). Gwyn has been doing fuck all besides that, and he can hardly punish disloyal subjects. Yet Frampt has still been actively working to guide undead to the lordvessel, instructing people how to link the fire. Instead of working with his supposed pal Kaathe to fuck things up. What kind of bets would they be hedging? "We either get what we truly want or we fuck ourselves over to stop... us!" Frampt being down with the gods won't magically extend to Kaathe, sworn enemy of the gods.

Again, the notion that they're secretly working together the entire time is dumb. Kaathe's singular purpose is to spread dark, doing anything to sustain the First Flame fucks him over. Kaathe has been shown to do his Abyss meme shit time and again, the flame going out is his goal, period. And Frampt is clearly implied to be directly working with Gwyndolin, as his fake Gwynevere is the one that gives you the Lordvessel, after Frampt instructs you to go there. And then he takes you to the Firelink Altar to use it. Literally all he'd have to do is not show up and tell undead to go to Anor Londo, and they wouldn't know what the fuck to do.
 
Again, the notion that they're secretly working together the entire time is dumb.
I've always thought of it as they don't care what ending you chose but rather their concern is getting you to the position to make the choice and will work together to ensure that. They're as old as the Dragons that the Lords fought and with the "The flow of time is convoluted" who's to say they've haven't seen both endings play out multiple times, the many new game+ runs, generally replaying the game, silly meme and dumb restriction challenge runs for YT views. They've seen the cycle play out multiple times, in multiple ways and help perpetuate it by putting the player on the right path, who's to say that either of them are telling you the absolute truth about their intentions for doing so?
 
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