Were America's Founding Fathers geniuses?

[Billy Beer]

Wasn't the US constition at best based on the Magna Carta and at worst a shitty copy-n-paste of it?

It took less than 200 years for greed and corruption to fuck America. 800~ years later and the Monarchy is still doing aight. I wonder which one messed up?

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

So you think a mail is a mail in ballot, then? And transwomen are women too, right?

Boy you're skating on Jonny Yaniv territory here. It's not a good look.

This is by far the most smooth brained take yet.

Not only did you ignore the context in which you couched mail-in voting in the framing of a technological advancement beyond the time of the Founding Fathers, when they invented the U.S. mail system, but then you followed it with a strawman about trannies. No, mail-in voting was not beyond their purview or comprehending, it is not a far-flung technology nobody could guess or imagine in the present. This is like the argument that the Founding Fathers couldn't have known what machine guns were when arguing against the right to keep & bear arms, when machine guns were found to have existed at the time in naval warfare.

 

[Mnutu]

The Constitution took centuries to be effectively subverted. Like, it was really lightning in a bottle in terms of how well it worked. Not Lincoln, FDR, or even the Civil Rights overthrow could by themselves destroy it, but all these blows at once, combined with the increasing immorality of the populace, and the merger of state and corporate power.

We may mock them now-but conservatives and libertarians worshipped the Constitution precisely because it endured so well, it cast a shining light, a beacon in ever more degenerate times, and so the naive belief that just "going back" to it would solve problems can be forgiven.

The Founding Fathers themselves could never have predicted the consequences of mass immigration(especially from the Shtetls more than a century later), or the lasting problems a black population not deported caused. Or the fruits of urbanization had on the spirit of the people(Jefferson knew).

I think if they were alive today, they'd tell us to let old documents die, and rise to forge a new path in our current circumstances as opposed to worshipping either them or their writings.

Vis-a-vis Immigration, that’s not entirely the Founding Fathers fault. That’s also the fault of the 14th amendment.

Also, @Haim Arlosoroff thanks for the mega post that sums up most everything about the founding fathers flaws and strengths. Schools really like to sweep the Whiskey Rebellion under the rug and pretend like it’s been good from go, but the first 20 years were really bad.

To add on, most folks forget that there’s more than a handful of Founding Fathers, and their collective beliefs should be factored into interpreting what was intended, more than just Jefferson or Adams.

Wasn't the US constition at best based on the Magna Carta and at worst a shitty copy-n-paste of it?

It took less than 200 years for greed and corruption to fuck America. 800~ years later and the Monarchy is still doing aight. I wonder which one messed up?

More like based on Paine and Lockes work and whatever Jefferson could get away with shoving in. Honestly, Locke Paine would be a pretty sick name for an American Folk Metal band.

 

[ProtonMailManTheSequel]

Lol like the average American knows what the Federalist papers are. To the average American the Constitution always supports whatever current year political position they have until it explicitly doesn't. Then its written by a bunch of old dead racist, slave-owning colonizers, who hated women and then the Constitution needs to be thrown out and rewritten.

You sound like my Advanced Concepts in Constitutional Law professor from back in the day.

You know--"living Constitution" and "emanations from penumbras" and all that shite.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

You sound like my Advanced Concepts in Constitutional Law professor from back in the day.

You sound like a prattling idiot.

 

[ProtonMailManTheSequel]

This is by far the most smooth brained take yet.

Not only did you ignore the context in which you couched mail-in voting in the framing of a technological advancement beyond the time of the Founding Fathers, when they invented the U.S. mail system, but then you followed it with a strawman about trannies. No, mail-in voting was not beyond their purview or comprehending, it is not a far-flung technology nobody could guess or imagine in the present. This is like the argument that the Founding Fathers couldn't have known what machine guns were when arguing against the right to keep & bear arms, when machine guns were found to have existed at the time in naval warfare.

You would not recognize a brain if one crawled up your ass and exploded.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

You would not recognize a brain if one crawled up your ass and exploded.

You couldn't write a good counterargument or a burn if it were written for you.

 

[Ishtar]

Vis-a-vis Immigration, that’s not entirely the Founding Fathers fault. That’s also the fault of the 14th amendment.

Which falls under Lincoln. There would be no 14th amendment without him.

Also, @Haim Arlosoroff thanks for the mega post that sums up most everything about the founding fathers flaws and strengths. Schools really like to sweep the Whiskey Rebellion under the rug and pretend like it’s been good from go, but the first 20 years were really bad.

This is a non sequitur. Yes the first twenty years or so brought many challenges, the Whiskey rebellion, the greatest defeat to Indians until Custer really, state infighting, and so on. This thread isn't about the crises of the Early Republic, but the Founding Father's intelligence and foresight.

It took less than 200 years for greed and corruption to fuck America. 800~ years later and the Monarchy is still doing aight. I wonder which one messed up?

Dude, you have to know the UK is not a monarchy anymore? The monarch's power and authority has become ever more ceremonial since 1688.

Also the UK is in some ways more pozzed than the US.

 

[Beautiful Border]

The mighty British Empire couldn't overpower a bunch of redneck farmers.

You sure you aren't talking about America fighting the Vietcong and the Taliban there?

 

[Mnutu]

Which falls under Lincoln. There would be no 14th amendment without him.


This is a non sequitur. Yes the first twenty years or so brought many challenges, the Whiskey rebellion, the greatest defeat to Indians until Custer really, state infighting, and so on. This thread isn't about the crises of the Early Republic, but the Founding Father's intelligence and foresight.


Dude, you have to know the UK is not a monarchy anymore? The monarch's power and authority has become ever more ceremonial since 1688.

Also the UK is in some ways more pozzed than the US.

First 20 years were governed by the Founding Fathers, and as the post I mentioned above points out, their initial plan (articles of confederation) fell apart in large part due to the Whiskey rebellion, which, regardless of the conclusion ultimately drawn, is a point against the Founding Fathers.

 

[Heather Mason]

You sure you aren't talking about America fighting the Vietcong and the Taliban there?

The Bri'ish brought the full wrath of God upon the poor American wagie and still lost. The American Empire decided nuking more civilians would be a bad look and cucked out. Major difference

 

[Ishtar]

The British were operating thousands of miles away from home, had an empire to maintain, and had incompetent generals.

All the American rebels had to do was not be completely destroyed, once they demonstrated that-the French and Spanish supported them to undermine the Anglos.

In some ways, the American revolution was a world war-at least in the theatres were European powers were involved.

The British had to defend Gibraltar, their interests in India, even the home island might have come under attack from a Franco-Spanish invasion fleet.

The loyalist support especially in the southern colonies never materialized the way they hoped, and their only real allies were Indian tribes and German mercenaries.

Really, once France and Spain and to a lesser extent the Dutch got involved-there was no way the US could not lose.

Literally no comparison between the ARW and modern conflicts in Afghanistan or Vietnam.

 

[Penis Drager]

They were smart, yeah. I wouldn't call them "geniuses" though.
The Constitution is the result of lessons learned from the failure of the articles of confederation and a bunch of people bickering about what the role of the federal government should be.

 

[Ishtar]

Imagine the Pennsylvania-Maryland-Virginia border wars we missed if the Constitution had never been implemented.

 

[Beautiful Border]

The Bri'ish brought the full wrath of God upon the poor American wagie

Uh... no they didn't lol. The American War of Independence was a sideshow at best. Also, the traitors would have lost if not for help from France.

Think about it. Imagine being so treacherous that you, an English colonist, seek out the help of the French. Disgraceful behaviour.

 

[Dr Naomi Hunter]

You sure you aren't talking about America fighting the Vietcong and the Taliban there?

The common denominator in Vietnam and the American Revolution is France ruining everything for everyone.

 

[Billy Beer]

Dude, you have to know the UK is not a monarchy anymore? The monarch's power and authority has become ever more ceremonial since 1688.

I would have gone with 1950's/post-empire for the ceremonial side. Victoria had a heavy hand in the Empire.

Though that doesn't mean, if needs be, that Lizzy wouldn't step in - behind the scenes, to drive policy. Brexit happened because of our Monarchy, and it was a damn fine decision.

Also the UK is in some ways more pozzed than the US.

Not in any way i can think of.

 

[Lone MacReady]

Or castrate them.

Literally what Jews did to their nog slaves back in the day, same as the Persians. Smart in that regard.

 

[ProtonMailManTheSequel]

Wasn't the US constition at best based on the Magna Carta and at worst a shitty copy-n-paste of it?

No.

 

[Ishtar]

Uh... no they didn't lol. The American War of Independence was a sideshow at best. Also, the traitors would have lost if not for help from France.

Think about it. Imagine being so treacherous that you, an English colonist, seek out the help of the French. Disgraceful behaviour.

The French had been driven out of North America and weren't coming back. Also the US more or less cucked the French and returned to trade with Britain after the war ended anyway.