Taiwan has approached the US to buy 66 F-16 Block 70/72

This news is hot off of the presses, so hot in fact that everything is still in Taiwanese. Luckily through liberal use of google translate, we can actually read it. everything in () is my interpretation of the moon-speak.

【獨家】加強軍備！台灣正式向美方提出近4千億元66架F-16Ｖ戰機軍售案｜蘋果新聞網｜蘋果日報

兩岸關係冷凍，為強化台灣國防，國防部日前已正式向美國提出購買66架F-16V 的需求，每架F-16V單價約在7千萬到9千萬美金之譜，再加上未...

tw.appledaily.com

[Exclusive] Strengthening armaments! Taiwan officially proposed to the US nearly 400 billion yuan of 66 F-16V fighter arms sales.

Cross-strait relations are frozen (Relations with China are bad.). In order to strengthen Taiwan's national defense, the Ministry of National Defense has officially proposed to the United States to purchase 66 F-16Vs. The unit price of each F-16V is about 70 million to 90 million US dollars, plus the future F. -16V fleet training, 2 years of overall logistics and related new air-to-air and air-to-ground ammunition, with a total price of nearly 13 billion US dollars ,about 390 billion Taiwan dollars. It is understood that the time proposed was on Wednesday February 27, and the party and government executives confirmed the matter.

The Air Force Command (of Taiwan) also confirmed in the evening that it has already submitted a new type of fighter procurement demand to the US through a formal pipeline to strengthen my air defense capability. However, due to different equipment types, the price is different (Taiwan likes to use domestic parts for their aircraft. the F-16 is pretty modular and Lockheed Martin is flexible on what gets put in the air-frame). After the US responds, the bargaining will be conducted.

People familiar with the matter stressed that if the war with the other side (China) is the most important thing is the air supremacy,there is no air power, the sea power and the road rights can not be defeated (if China cannot use its air-power it cannot threaten Taiwan's sea-lanes and attack Taiwan itself.).

The CCP military aircraft trained in the cross-island chain cruise in recent years, and then round the island, threatening our army gradually (China has encroached on Taiwanese territory/waters and is training to attack Taiwan). The National Army is in great need of these fighters, but now it is the "seller's market".

It is not what we want to buy (they wanted stealth fighters, or at least late generation F-15s and F-18s), the US will sell it immediately (The F-16s even when upgraded are an old enough platform that the US can sell them to Taiwan without fear of major blow-back from China), the US will judge its own interests, choose the time to sell, or suspend, Looking at whether the Trump administration will use the arms sales to Taiwan as a leveraged chip for US-China relations.

In September 2017, the US State Department approved the sale of 19 F-16V fighters in Bahrain and upgraded 20 F-16 Block 40s in Bahrain to F-16V. At that time, the unit price of the newly purchased F-16V in Bahrain did not include weapons and equipment and training costs, about $70 million. Shi Xiaozhen, editor-in-chief of the "Military and Aviation" website, said that the US personnel had privately said that since the number of F-16Vs purchased in China (Taiwan) was 66, more than Bahrain, the unit price of purchasing F-16V would never be higher than that of Bahrain.

As for some people criticizing the high price of the new F-16V aircraft purchased by the Air Force, in 1992 China (Taiwan) purchased 150 F-16A/B fighters, which cost only US$6 billion. The price of a single machine is only over US$40 million. Now we have to spend Nearly 13 billion US dollars can be purchased for 66 F-16Vs. The unit price is about 7,000 to 90,000 US dollars (13 billion / 66 = 200 million dollars), and almost all advanced F-35A fighters can be purchased (The runway cost of an F-35A is supposedly cheaper than $200 million now.). Shi Xiaoxuan explained that this is mainly due to inflation between 30 years, so the price of my new F-16V machine is not expensive (Also all of the training, maintenance, and munitions).

Shi Xiaoxuan further pointed out that since my F-5E/F fighter is about to be eliminated, the air defense capability of the eastern region must be replenished. The current plan is to be stationed in Taitung by the Air Force’s fleet of Qingquangang. The newly purchased 66 F-16V fighters will be deployed at the Qingquangang base in the future to meet the air superiority of the Chinese People's Liberation Army.

According to Zheng Jiwen, editor-in-chief of Asia-Pacific Defense magazine, the F-16V has a greater operational efficiency than the existing fighters of the National Army, regardless of the radar, air and electric self-war system (Even if the capabilities of the stuff they have now was the same as the F-16V, it would be cheaper to fly). The ability is sufficient to match the PLA-10C fighter.

Zheng Jiwen pointed out that the F-16V has the latest specifications, AESA "Electronic Active Array Array" radar, radar can not only see far, better control ability, plus the latest air and electronic warfare system, compared to the military's existing F-16A /B is a lot stronger, aircraft performance can meet the future air defense needs of the national army.

However, he also pointed out that the F-16V still has a fatal problem, that is, the take-off and landing method still needs the traditional runway, not the vertical or short-range take-off and landing aircraft, because in the war, our runway is very easy to be blown up by the enemy, so Purchasing the F-16V does not meet the most urgent needs of the Air Force. In the long run, it is still necessary to continue to (try to) buy the F-35 fighters from the US to solve the deadly problem of (runways) being destroyed during the runway.

"Apple" (tried to) verify with the Ministry of National Defense on Monday that the Ministry of National Defense said "no comment." The presidential palace said tonight that it was handed over to the Ministry of National Defense. The Air Force Command said in the evening that the Air Force Command looked forward to the current threat of hostilities, carefully assessing future operational needs, and Zhou Yan completed the case-building procedures, and proposed a new type of fighter procurement demand to the US through a formal pipeline to strengthen my (Taiwan's) air defense capabilities. The Air Force Command further stated that due to different types of equipment (Local parts being used), the price is different. After the US responds, the headquarters will negotiate again.

Ma Wenjun said that it feels that this budget is "buy expensive (very expensive?)" and that if the country is to be built in the future, I am afraid it will be a heavy burden (The current defense budget is too big?). The Green Commissioner Wang Dingyu said that the F-16V fighter is a modified version and is an advanced aircraft. After the replacement of China’s F-5E/F fighters in the future, the air defense capability in the east does need to increase the demand for a company (as in the military unit, of aircraft). Look, this is a smart choice." -Political Center / Taipei Report

F-16V small file (fact sheet)
Amount: 66, about 390 billion Taiwan dollars
Weapons: Mount the latest AIM-9X rattlesnake thermal tracking missiles, HARM anti-radiation missiles and joint attack bombs (JDAM)
performance:
. Replace the active "electronic scanning phased array radar" to lock the stealth fighter
. ALQ-213 Electric Warfare Management System
. ALQ-184 electronic interference pod upgrade, enhanced interception capability and interference with enemy radar systems
. Electro-optical infrared sighting "Shen Shooter" pod upgrade

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Please let me know if this content is appreciated.

 

[The Un-Clit]

No, the 35’s don’t suck. It’s just on par with Eurofighter and Rafale. But price wise, too expensive.

No, sorry bro, but it sucks. Thank FUCK Canada dropped it's purchase. I would have gone to bed at night fearing the Red Jackboot like during the cold war. Those underpowered overpriced fake stealth POSes can suck a dick. There are aircraft 2 generations old that could match it. The electronics are ALL it has going for it, and you could fit most of that into any airframe.

 

[BONE_Buddy]

On the F-35 issue we need to get more granular. "Concurrent Design and Manufacturing" was a fundamentally stupid idea leaving us with literally dozens (read: 100+) of aircraft that would be more costly to upgrade than to build new ones.

The F-35A (Air-Force) has become a good plane. It has decent stealth, a moderate internal payload, and the range isn't a trash-fire. It still need more "updates," but probably won't require any major redesigns. The aircraft is good at what it was intended to be, a stealthy high-end replacement for the F-16.

The F-35C (Navy) is a decent aircraft. The initial idea to replace all of the F/A-18 Super Hornet wings with F-35C was a bad idea. The F-35 could act well as a first strike attack aircraft, and air to air operator. However, most operations are basic bomb trucking missions.

So, the F-35A could very well be a good aircraft, The F-35C may be a decent aircraft, what about the F-35B (Marine). Oh dear...

The initial design of the air-craft was so heavy it couldn't be a VTOL(Vertical Take Off/Landing aircraft) or even STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing)*. So Lockheed embarked on a heavy weight loss program on the aircraft, cutting 2,700 pounds off of the aircraft. This reduced the G level that the aircraft to handle. It also introduced problems to the weapons bay, and what is this? Cracks on the testing air-frame. These were known issues for years. When the new DOT&E dropped, it caused quite the stir, The F-35B may only have a 2,100 hour lifespan. A lifespan that was supposed to be 8,000 hours. I could go on.

*The aircraft was/is heavier than the F-35A because of the internal vertical lift fan (among other things), which takes up internal (stealth) payload capacity. Therefore, if heavier/more/larger things have to be carried by the F-35B, it would have to be carried on an external mount, which defeats the purpose of the rest of the aircraft being stealth.

Hope this clears the issue up a bit.

 

[Mike Hunt]

No, the F-16 is fine. But the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale can do more things than the F-16 and especially the Rafale, cheap, efficient and on-par with the F-16. Rafale is one helluva multirole fighter!

I'm not much of a jet sperg, but I did play Falcon 3.0 back in the day and it's ginormous manual mentioned that the F-16 is affordable compared to other fighters in its time (the Rafale wasn't around then). Does that not hold true nowadays and the Rafale is cheaper to acquire?

 

[BONE_Buddy]

F-16 is not only cheaper to fly, but also to maintain, while having roughly the same cababilities depending on model. The F-16V is the latest and has far better radar than the Rafale. Additionally, Taiwan already has F-16A/Bs, and makes domestic part for them. It would be relatively easy for them to switch over to making parts for the F-16V as well.

 

[76LD910]

No, the 35’s don’t suck. It’s just on par with Eurofighter and Rafale. But price wise, too expensive.

If the performance of the F-35 compered to the Eurofighter or Rafale vs legacy aircraft/defenses in the last couple Red Flag exercises and the reported leaks regarding their performance alongside F-35's at the joint Atlantic Trident exercise, the gap between them in the field of air-to-air combat is massive.

Price wise your either misinformed or vastly out of date: In recent bids the fly-away/asking price/upfront cost for the Eurofighter have been $90 million. The F-35A, the only realistic choice for the overwhelming majority of potential export customers among the three F-35 variants, has sold for an identical $90 million in the most recent batches, but the fly-away price of the F-35 is steadily falling and bids being made today for future batches are less. Belgium for example finalized their decision a few months ago and signed a contract for F-35's to be delivered in 2023 for the price of $78 million, exactly the fly-away price of a Rafale, which I'm convinced was an intentional "fuck you" aimed at France/Dassault considering how contentious that competition was.

Estimated life time costs, including the initial purchase, associated with operating an F-35A or Rafale hover around $200 million (these numbers are never exact because they change depending on how exactly an individual operator intends to use utilize/maintain the aircraft) while the Eurofighter has been estimated as high as $350 million. Even if you discount the fact that operating costs of the F-35 are certain to fall as they proliferate, its falling fly-away price has already made it cheaper than the Rafale, clearly indicated by the aforementioned Belgium procurement program finalized at $600 million under budget.

No, sorry bro, but it sucks. Thank FUCK Canada dropped it's purchase. I would have gone to bed at night fearing the Red Jackboot like during the cold war. Those underpowered overpriced fake stealth POSes can suck a dick. There are aircraft 2 generations old that could match it. The electronics are ALL it has going for it, and you could fit most of that into any airframe.

This is the polar opposite opinion of the vast majority of military personnel I converse with, none more so than Canadian pilots/maintainers. The consensus among them is that the F-18 replacement issue has been one of the more egregious examples of Canada's horrid procurement problems, that its a prime example of why politicians should have zero say in how its done, that the F-35 is the only way to go, and that Canada will almost certainly buy the F-35 ..... after wasting massive amounts of time and money with theater like this:

1: Throwing a massive bitch fit (during two election cycles) about the sole sourcing of the F-35
2: The new defense minister stating the F-35 would be included in any future fighter bids directly contradicting Trudeau/Liberals platform which still lists on thier website the F-35 being a no-go
3: Sole sourcing an "interim" fleet of Super Hornets (an aircraft which at the time cost almost exactly as much as an F-35) because of a supposed "capability gap" against the advice of acting air-force chiefs,
4: Having to cancel the Super Hornet purchase after Boeing sued Bombardier
5: In lue of Super Hornets, supplementing the 30 year old Canadian F-18's by purchasing 30 year old Australian F-18's while they replace the're fleet with the F-35
6: The ministry of defense somehow misplacing all documentation relating to the supposed "capability gap" further reinforcing the widely held belief in the CAF that the liberals plan with the Super Hornets was to wait a few years and say "well we already have a semi-new fleet of aircraft and its working out so lets just buy more of them" so as to save face as it was becoming clear around this time the F-35 was the only logical choice and not buying it was key part of their platform.

 

[The Un-Clit]

If the performance of the F-35 compered to the Eurofighter or Rafale vs legacy aircraft/defenses in the last couple Red Flag exercises and the reported leaks regarding their performance alongside F-35's at the joint Atlantic Trident exercise, the gap between them in the field of air-to-air combat is massive.

Price wise your either misinformed or vastly out of date: In recent bids the fly-away/asking price/upfront cost for the Eurofighter have been $90 million. The F-35A, the only realistic choice for the overwhelming majority of potential export customers among the three F-35 variants, has sold for an identical $90 million in the most recent batches, but the fly-away price of the F-35 is steadily falling and bids being made today for future batches are less. Belgium for example finalized their decision a few months ago and signed a contract for F-35's to be delivered in 2023 for the price of $78 million, exactly the fly-away price of a Rafale, which I'm convinced was an intentional "fuck you" aimed at France/Dassault considering how contentious that competition was.

Estimated life time costs, including the initial purchase, associated with operating an F-35A or Rafale hover around $200 million (these numbers are never exact because they change depending on how exactly an individual operator intends to use utilize/maintain the aircraft) while the Eurofighter has been estimated as high as $350 million. Even if you discount the fact that operating costs of the F-35 are certain to fall as they proliferate, its falling fly-away price has already made it cheaper than the Rafale, clearly indicated by the aforementioned Belgium procurement program finalized at $600 million under budget.



This is the polar opposite opinion of the vast majority of military personnel I converse with, none more so than Canadian pilots/maintainers. The consensus among them is that the F-18 replacement issue has been one of the more egregious examples of Canada's horrid procurement problems, that its a prime example of why politicians should have zero say in how its done, that the F-35 is the only way to go, and that Canada will almost certainly buy the F-35 ..... after wasting massive amounts of time and money with theater like this:

1: Throwing a massive bitch fit (during two election cycles) about the sole sourcing of the F-35
2: The new defense minister stating the F-35 would be included in any future fighter bids directly contradicting Trudeau/Liberals platform which still lists on thier website the F-35 being a no-go
3: Sole sourcing an "interim" fleet of Super Hornets (an aircraft which at the time cost almost exactly as much as an F-35) because of a supposed "capability gap" against the advice of acting air-force chiefs,
4: Having to cancel the Super Hornet purchase after Boeing sued Bombardier
5: In lue of Super Hornets, supplementing the 30 year old Canadian F-18's by purchasing 30 year old Australian F-18's while they replace the're fleet with the F-35
6: The ministry of defense somehow misplacing all documentation relating to the supposed "capability gap" further reinforcing the widely held belief in the CAF that the liberals plan with the Super Hornets was to wait a few years and say "well we already have a semi-new fleet of aircraft and its working out so lets just buy more of them" so as to save face as it was becoming clear around this time the F-35 was the only logical choice and not buying it was key part of their platform.

I'm not saying replacing the F35 purchase with Super Hornets is the right move either, but the insane (REAL, not massaged by Lockheed's spin-doctors) short and long-term cost of buying and operating the F35, the abysmal fit for Canada's defense needs (especially in range!) plus the continuing ongoing problems with even getting the damn things out in flying shape to the forces who HAVE bought them continue to show that holding off for a LONG time (if buying at all) is the correct move.

As it stands right now, going with F35 block a's would be almost as monumentally stupid as scrapping the Avro Arrow and replacing it with second-hand bowmarc missile batteries and second hand Starfighters that didn't last even 10 years before replacing them 50 years ago was.

Frankly, I'd love to see an order for the Saab Gripen for Canada. It's in the race for the new round of open competition if I am not mistaken. Now there's a fighter with the flexability, speed and most importantly RANGE that the RCAF NEEDS for it's fighter/interceptor role in the Great White North.

 

[BONE_Buddy]

Maybe I should just rename the thread: Fighter Aircraft Sperging.

Now there's a fighter with the flexability, speed and most importantly RANGE that the RCAF NEEDS for it's fighter/interceptor role in the Great White North.

Not to sperg about fighters even more, but what about the new F-15s. Seriously, It has everything the Canadians need: Bomb truck capability, range, great air interception characteristics, range, cheap maintenance, and did I mention range? Seriously, with new AESA Radar, and a heavy combat load range radius of 790 miles with a 2,760ish mile range with three drop-tanks for longer range combat missions.

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To put us back on topic for the time being, The news has reached the English language:

Taiwan to buy up to 66 F-16 fighter jets from US

Increased military ties between Taipei and Washington seen to irk Beijing

asia.nikkei.com

Taiwan applies to buy new fighter jets from US

Taiwan's defense ministry says it has submitted an official request to purchase new fighter jets from the U.S.

abcnews.go.com

Taiwan asks US for new fighter jets to defend against China

Taiwan has made a formal request to the United States for new fighter jets to defend itself against increasing Chinese threats, Deputy Defence Minister Shen...

www.dailymail.co.uk

All of the articles are shit, but they are in English nonetheless.

 

[The Un-Clit]

Maybe I should just rename the thread: Fighter Aircraft Sperging.


Not to sperg about fighters even more, but what about the new F-15s. Seriously, It has everything the Canadians need: Bomb truck capability, range, great air interception characteristics, range, cheap maintenance, and did I mention range? Seriously, with new AESA Radar, and a heavy combat load range radius of 790 miles with a 2,760ish mile range with three drop-tanks for longer range combat missions.

__
To put us back on topic for the time being, The news has reached the English language:

Taiwan to buy up to 66 F-16 fighter jets from US

Increased military ties between Taipei and Washington seen to irk Beijing

asia.nikkei.com

Taiwan applies to buy new fighter jets from US

Taiwan's defense ministry says it has submitted an official request to purchase new fighter jets from the U.S.

abcnews.go.com

Taiwan asks US for new fighter jets to defend against China

Taiwan has made a formal request to the United States for new fighter jets to defend itself against increasing Chinese threats, Deputy Defence Minister Shen...

www.dailymail.co.uk

All of the articles are shit, but they are in English nonetheless.

Yeah, I'd be down for the updated F-15s for Canada too. Intercontinental range with those spiffy conformal fuel tanks, and 2 engines to satisfy that safety concern. A fantastic cruise range and long combat range as you noted which you need when dealing with territory the size of Canada. It has a proven reliable and rugged airframe, was multirole capable before multirole existed as a term, and the newest models are fitted with all the modern avionics. All this and a reasonable price point and operating costs as well. Makes perfect sense to me.

kk plane sperging /off, ima let Taiwan get back in the picture.