Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[niggarobux]

Germanic.
And I don't mean that just as a "HYPERBOREA I'M SO ORIGINAL AND FUNNY." No, I mean it as in his theme song is a German word (Bergentrückung).
There may be other German cultural stuff too but I'm not sure

Anywho, I think it's a false pretense. You don't need to set it based on a specific culture for no reason, it could just be generally royal and "plant like" or whatever.

If they wanted it to be Japanese, it should have had a stronger basis.

That really does make me think of missed potential. While ordinary settings could be considered to be too plain, we can always have unique twists on gardens and greenhouses, culminating in Asgore's imposing fortress where he constantly ruminates over his theories. Chapter 4 had the setting be different enough from your average cathedral with how it changed.

Assuming that Asgore opened the fountain instead, it could be hostile to keep anyone who'd cease his investigation out, and we could further decouple the SOUL from Kris to see who he's collaborating with. Maybe he'd require assistance from whomever he's working with, whether that's the Knight, Carol, or whatever you'd think works best.
FRIENDs could start attacking you in selected places if you had eggs by this point, because some places could be secluded enough to make a disappearance unnoticed by anyone else. You'd actually feel the effects of the information that we got in that patch.
Suselle could either be cut entirely or have even more hints that it's some prophecy fuckery and that it's non-functional.
The six other flowers that aren't Flowery could be based on varying abnormalities that flowers have, instead of being Steven Universe OCs. You could carry this into the gameplay if possible.
Speaking of Flowery, my favourite part about him is the theatrics that he put on to stop the Lightners from reaching the fountain. I'd like more of that, with some attempt to make him less like Tenna and Queen. (Less focus on funny voice clips and keeping the Lightners endlessly entertained. We've already covered the escapism topic extensively by this point.)
Asgore could stop vagueposting and explain what he's discovered, since that's clearly important to him.
If we are to keep her... Pink could be disoriented from the Dark World, Black Shard, and possession, transforming into some form of warrior that the troon ghost panics over. The dating could be kept, but the actual visual novel mechanic could be saved for the end, the fight mainly revolving around turning her back to normal. We could have the obvious parallel with the SOUL and Kris in conjunction with seeing just how far objects can be changed by established forces. This is probably the most questionable one here in my head, but I had to come up with something, given how we've already shown how Kris disobeys the SOUL many times.
Susie and Ralsei could be taken out back and shot with tranquilizer darts during that date after the chapter. (Not literally, but come on, let my nigga Kris have some female attention for once.)

These ideas aren't the clearest and could become ass if executed improperly, but I'd prefer these over what we got.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

we already had a European-style castle and medieval fantasy in the first chapter.

Who said anything about medieval castles? I'm talking about 3rd Reich Asgore
Look I found some art of Sans before Papyrus put him in the Gas Chambers and Nazi Papyrus


Unironically Nazi Architecture chapter 5 would have been so much better. Plays into the themes of Asgore being authoritarian too or whatever. And hey, Flowery is kind of Aryan if you ignore that he's a Jap (who are honorary Aryans anyway). Why can't it work?

And Asgore is literally a conspiracy theorist. Make him call the roaring knight a kike or something and threaten to lynch him. It is not that hard.

 

[Gimcracker]

While ordinary settings could be considered to be too plain, we can always have unique twists on gardens and greenhouses, culminating in Asgore's imposing fortress where he constantly ruminates over his theories. Chapter 4 had the setting be different enough from your average cathedral with how it changed.

Not a lot would even need to be changed. Replace the Japanese architecture with a greenhouse inspired castle and you're pretty much done. Netskie and Shinobeetle still fit in, Pink still has a reason to be like that, and terracotta warriors aren't even Japanese. Large sections of the chapter are just themed around plants as-is. If any culture was to be incorporated, I think the Dutch are more fitting to the idea of a 'flower shop', being known for both that decorative plant and commerce (essentially, just adding tulip fields, windmills and canals into the mix, perhaps replacing the shop hub and cafe with a traditional market).

I think the theory from the Dawn Somewhere video posted earlier is correct - dating sims were originally going to be a larger inspiration for this chapter, judging by Flowery's intro, the tone of the tea shop conversations, and the prominence of love as a theme. I don't doubt that this chapter wouldn't have been Japanese themed if they didn't start with that in mind and change course later.

 

[niggarobux]

Not a lot would even need to be changed. Replace the Japanese architecture with a greenhouse inspired castle and you're pretty much done. Netskie and Shinobeetle still fit in, Pink still has a reason to be like that, and terracotta warriors aren't even Japanese. Large sections of the chapter are just themed around plants as-is. If any culture was to be incorporated, I think the Dutch are more fitting to the idea of a 'flower shop', being known for both that decorative plant and commerce (essentially, just adding tulip fields, windmills and canals into the mix, perhaps replacing the shop hub and cafe with a traditional market).

I think the theory from the Dawn Somewhere video posted earlier is correct - dating sims were originally going to be a larger inspiration for this chapter, judging by Flowery's intro, the tone of the tea shop conversations, and the prominence of love as a theme. I don't doubt that this chapter wouldn't have been Japanese themed if they didn't start with that in mind and change course later.

Yeah, I'd honestly be fine with it as long as it was more cohesive, less pozzed, actually answered more plot points, and didn't have random points in the chapter where it essentially told anyone non-cliquésque to go fuck themselves. I was just spouting random ideas that would solve my grievances.

Should probably add that I'd also want it to evolve the combat system instead of making Susie and Ralsei play homogeneously.

 

[Super Guido]

Toby could have taken inspiration from stuff like the Alnwick Garden - the Poison Garden within it could have some interesting implications.

 

[My Password is *******]

You don't even get the chance to thornring Noelle in chapter 4 if you keep it in 2. Kris hasn't thrown it away so far, so there's no reason to assume he suddenly would.

Kris definitely lowered his guard in Noelle's house. Considering that he put his phone on speaker while he is in the kitchen, literally one room away from Susie and Noelle, it's clear that he felt safe enough to listen to the conversation. Even in the Weird Route, it takes Kris about 20 seconds to interrupt Noelle and bolt her out of the room if you show up.

Perhaps Kris thought that you would truly be stuck in that room as he didn't even bother to move the guitar, let alone hide it after he clearly saw you look into it for the code.

On an unrelated note... something else that I thought was interesting to bring up is the numbers from the website

I know a good chunk of the community corresponds these to the Weird Route, but after Noelle went schizo in Chapter 5, I don't see it anymore.
I tried to think of every rationalization when it comes to the Weird Route and none of them fit.

So what if the sizes of these numbers represent the amount of secret content in these chapters? With the white ones having Weird Route content, while the hidden ones are related to Shadow Crystals and the eggs? It would also explain why Chapters 6 and 7 are missing as all the major secrets ended during Chapter 5 (the Shadow Crystal hunt, the eggs and even the Weird Route takes you to an alternate Chapter 7).

Everyone's complaining about Chapter 5's Dark World being Japanese-themed, but I saw nobody suggest a better and more fitting theme for it.

Call it a stretch, but I believe a museum theme could've been rather fitting. A bit random, but fitting given how Asgore is clearly stuck in the past and seeks to prove something to THOSE people who were THERE on THAT day in THAT place at THAT time, so that THAT person could be exposed for doing THAT thing.

 

[Milkmaid Man]

Everyone's complaining about Chapter 5's Dark World being Japanese-themed, but I saw nobody suggest a better and more fitting theme for it.

I thought it'd be carnival themed and taking place in a circus tent.

 

[Timaeus Testified]

Deltarune now runs the struggle of having difficulty modifying items in a game with skill based damage mechanics.
Easy to handle in a game like UT with backtracking but you're not exactly able to really plan for if a player will have collected the dildong of infinite power or not in say ch 3 when designing a boss that everyone should be able to beat.
So now it's either too easy or too hard depending on player items.

I think about this every time I'm forced to use a ReviveMint; I've got this constant thought in the back of my head that I've just used a really valuable resource that might have come in handy for whatever fight still lurks ahead at the end of the game. Hell, I still have the two Glowshards from the very beginning; I wonder if there's some interesting item you can buy at the end of the game, but you can only afford it if you sold those Glowshards from the very beginning. I even crafted that dumb brooch with the Dog Dollar, even though it sucks up all your money. Can't remember what game it's from, but I remember there being a game where a crappy weapon in your inventory transforms into the best weapon in the game when you enter the final area. Maybe the same thing will happen with the Dog Widow?

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

If Toby Fox wasn't a retard with infinity trannies he'd have made 6 different garden styles for each of the six flowers +1 for Flowery, with Aqua (a 2hu by any other name) being traditional jap and Flowery being animu sugoi cherry blossoms.
Orange could be microgardens (bonsai etc)
Yellow could be cactuses
Seth could've gone for some sorta reading garden thing.
Green could've been fruits and vegetables.
And Blue?
The nigger lynchin tree of course.

 

[Two Dollars]

I thought it'd be carnival themed and taking place in a circus tent.

It’s time to let Jevil go.

 

[harmy.kook]

It’s time to let Jevil go.

We stopped revolving three chapters ago, time to get off the ride

 

[Sunset Ethernia]

 

[Usean Allied Forces]

Ver archivo adjunto 9281505

 

[SIMON THE PIEMAN]

Call it a stretch, but I believe a museum theme could've been rather fitting. A bit random, but fitting given how Asgore is clearly stuck in the past and seeks to prove something to THOSE people who were THERE on THAT day in THAT place at THAT time, so that THAT person could be exposed for doing THAT thing.

For me this sounds like a detective theme rather than a museum theme, which also be a far less random choice than a weeb theme given how Asgore is already conducting an investigation. We could have had a noir-themed chapter with Asgore flip-flopping between being a shitty and a competent detective, plenty of opportunties to make fun of the retarded theoryfags in the fandom and hell, maybe even get Berdly out of the bed and make him an even shittier rivial detective or the Watson to Asgore's Sherlock? It would also give the Roaring Knight a better reason to act, as the kidnapping would make it seem that Asgore got too close to the truth.

 

[Cave Fisher]

Germanic.
And I don't mean that just as a "HYPERBOREA I'M SO ORIGINAL AND FUNNY." No, I mean it as in his theme song is a German word (Bergentrückung).
There may be other German cultural stuff too but I'm not sure

Anywho, I think it's a false pretense. You don't need to set it based on a specific culture for no reason, it could just be generally royal and "plant like" or whatever.

If they wanted it to be Japanese, it should have had a stronger basis.

You know, looking back, the name Asgore's battle theme being German is pretty random all things considered, isn't it?

 

[Cryogonal2]

On an unrelated note... something else that I thought was interesting to bring up is the numbers from the website

I know a good chunk of the community corresponds these to the Weird Route, but after Noelle went schizo in Chapter 5, I don't see it anymore.
I tried to think of every rationalization when it comes to the Weird Route and none of them fit.

So what if the sizes of these numbers represent the amount of secret content in these chapters? With the white ones having Weird Route content, while the hidden ones are related to Shadow Crystals and the eggs? It would also explain why Chapters 6 and 7 are missing as all the major secrets ended during Chapter 5 (the Shadow Crystal hunt, the eggs and even the Weird Route takes you to an alternate Chapter 7).

Chapter 1: Nothing but Jevil's crystal and egg. Can not click the number
Chapter 2: Weird route, Aborted weird route, Spamton's crystal, egg*. Can click the number, leads to the song that plays before you engage Berdly. Important for Weird, Aborted Weird, and the twisted sword. *Can not egg on Weird route for this chapter
Chapter 3: Sword route, egg, Roaring's crystal. Can't see it unless you highlight, but for what reason? Can click the number, leads to ERAM's sound effect. Important for Sword.
Chapter 4: Gerson's crystal, egg, Weird route content. Can click the number, leads to a page foreshadowing thornringing Noelle. Clicking the dot takes you to a different page with a message that, when decoded, spells "THANK YOU." Important WR content, but more a vehicle for what is to come in chapter 5.
Chapter 5: MMM's crystal, egg, Weird route content. Can click the number, leads to a snip from Happy Town, the town's theme during Weird Route. Extremely important Weird content, negative crystals if you go Weird, and you already weren't getting all the eggs.

Every number that can be clicked has something to do with Weird route except for chapter 3. These are also chapters that have crystals and eggs, meaning the subsequent chapters aren't highlighted due to the lack of collectables. 6 will have no Weird content, but you'll be able to craft the twisted sword either here or in the last chapter if some bullshit happens. Let's treat all the collectables like they'll help you get a different ending, and think about the maximum amount of each collectable in each route.

Normal: Less than five eggs, less than five crystals, no thornring. Standard intended experience. Can recruit everyone, maybe you'll make a mistake and miss an enemy.
Normal with knowledge: five eggs, five crystals, no thornring. You can get whatever the eggs unlock, but who knows if the pure crystal will mean anything for you? It might not even change anything on its own. Can recruit everyone.
Weird: three eggs, four crystals, thornring. Who knows what'll happen with Noelle and her ring, but the eggs and crystals do not mean anything in this route because you're going somewhere entirely different.
Aborted weird (aborted in chapter 2): five eggs, five crystals, thornring. Can make the twisted sword and get all the eggs. You are able to do everything except win back the potential recruits you lost in chapter 2.
Aborted weird (aborted in chapter 5): four eggs, five crystals, maybe no thornring (to be determined in chapter 6). Can not make the twisted sword or get all eggs. This feels like the "you fucked up in every possible way" route, plus you lost those potential recruits in chapter 2.

I guess my question is "What's the point of the size of the numbers, if it's not about Weird & Sword Route?" because chapters 4 & 5 have the same amount of collectables and secret content.

 

[Colon capital V]

We stopped revolving three chapters ago, time to get off the ride

Jevil disrespectors will NOT be tolerated in this thread, the world VVILL continue revolving and he VVILL do anything Lightnigger.

 

[My Password is *******]

I guess my question is "What's the point of the size of the numbers, if it's not about Weird & Sword Route?" because chapters 4 & 5 have the same amount of collectables and secret content.

That is what I am trying to rationalize, because from what I see, I do not see the actual connection. Yes, it is connected to secret content, whether it's the Weird Route or the Sword Route, but I am leaning more towards Sword Route personally.

Spoiler: My arguments against the conclusion of others.

The sizes indicate how much the Weird Route skips the chapter.

This one is flat out false because if it were true, Chapter 5 would be significantly bigger than Chapters 2 and 3 considering that Chapter 5 skips the entirety of itself and Chapter 6.

The sizes indicate how much time you spend with Noelle.

I've seen this argument used at one point I believe, so I will address it as well. You arguably spend as much time with Noelle in Chapters 4 and 5, so why is Chapter 5 bigger than Chapter 4?
Secondly, Chapter 3 has very little of the time spent with the Noelle character, given how it is one section, whereas with Chapter 2, you spend half the chapter with Noelle.

The sizes indicate the importance of the choices regarding the Weird Route/opportunities to abort it.

Why is Chapter 1 there, even if invisible? Why is Chapter 5 bigger than Chapter 4?

The sizes indicate how much new content there is in the Weird Route.

The most plausible explanation, yet Chapter 5 is once again the thing that doesn't make this work for me. Chapter 5 has a grand total of around 20 minutes of content, assuming you go around and explore the town with Susie and take your time to read the text. Less if you just go straight to Noelle. Even the aborted version has less changes than Chapter 4, which has the important scene as well as several changes compared to just the single line of dialogue between you and Susie in Chapter 5. That, and there's also the fact that Chapter 3 does actually have a few small changes if you do the Weird Route. The Shadow Mantle Holder/ERAM will tell you directly that Kris could just say it wasn't him that did it and Ralsei tells you that going to the Festival with Noelle is a "bad idea." On top of that, why is Chapter 1 even there, even if invisible? There is absolutely nothing even remotely hinting at the Weird Route in Chapter 1.

Any way I look at it, it just doesn't fit to me. The only way it can really fit to me is if the Twisted Sword Route is truly the thing that is being referenced here. Most people accept that it will start in Chapter 6. A notion that I recently began to disagree with and until I get proven otherwise when Chapter 6 releases, I shall keep it that way. I do have some ideas as to what it could mean in regards to my beliefs involving the Twisted Sword... I guess we shall see in 2027 if I am right regarding my hypothesis involving the Pure Crystal/Twisted Sword.

 

[Puck Clown]

Everyone's complaining about Chapter 5's Dark World being Japanese-themed, but I saw nobody suggest a better and more fitting theme for it.

I remember folks tossing around the idea that Chapter 5 would be a micro version of Undertale's biomes. While I think that would be too on the nose, it would be interesting to base the Chapter 5 Dark World based on seasons

An old comparison comparison folks use to make is that each of the areas of Undertale are based on Fall-Winter-Spring-Summer in that order. Seasons are very closely tied to plants and stuff. That way, its an Undertale reference that's still thematically appropriate.

 

[Niggerphobe]

Does anyone know the website so I can have Noelle say this